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John The Pessimist

Wind Turbines Are Bad For House Prices!

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Torygraph piece suggesting that the evil Lib Dems are trying to bury a DEFRA report. Apparently the report suggests that wind farms adversely affect house prices. Who cares if the lights go out as long as house prices remain high.....

Edit: It goat paste the smell cheque.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/10260729/Secret-wind-farm-report-into-house-price-blight.html

Edited by John The Pessimist

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Torygraph piece suggesting that the evil Lib Dems are trying to bury a DEFRA report. Apparently the report suggests that wind farms adversely affect house prices. Who cares if the lights go out as long as house prices remain high.....

Edit: It goat paste the smell cheque.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/10260729/Secret-wind-farm-report-into-house-price-blight.html

The trouble is that high house prices make all infrastructure development more expensive since those blighted in any way would normally be compensated. High house prices are driving the costs of HS2 through the roof and now threaten the development of wind farms as well as fracking installations, etc. It's just another way in which easy credit for property purchases is sucking the life blood out of real innovation.

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Who cares if the lights go out as long as house prices remain high.....

If the lights go out, it will be because the country has been building wind farms rather than real power plants.

I see the latest wheeze is to pay companies crazy money to install diesel generators to cover the periods when the wind farms aren't producing any power.

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This seems extraordinary. Why on earth are house prices relevant to energy policy? There are all kinds of arguments one could have about windfarms, but if their effect on house prices is something that a government department feels to be a matter of concern, that would suggest that priorities are distinclty skewed. Mabe we already knew that though...

Edited by Scunnered

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If the lights go out, it will be because the country has been building wind farms rather than real power plants.

I see the latest wheeze is to pay companies crazy money to install diesel generators to cover the periods when the wind farms aren't producing any power.

That sounds extremely unlikely. I can't imagine how it could possibly be feasible to have enough diesel generation capacity to compensate for lulls in wind generation. And why would it be necessary? Gas generation capacity is perfectly sufficient to back up wind generation.

Where did you read that?

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That sounds extremely unlikely. I can't imagine how it could possibly be feasible to have enough diesel generation capacity to compensate for lulls in wind generation. And why would it be necessary? Gas generation capacity is perfectly sufficient to back up wind generation.

Where did you read that?

Contrary to Mark G's insinuation its sensible planning by National Grid to utilise existing plant in a more intelligent way. There are hundreds if not thousands of large stationary gen sets around the Country (hospitals, Councils, factories, offices etc etc). These have to be run regularly to cycle through the diesel fuel. NG have been signing up a number of these to act as short notice back up which is mostly needed to deal with large lumpy plant going off line suddenly rather than wind turbines. With the advent of the tinterweb its pretty easy to send an automatic signal to these generators to fire up when grid frequency drops below a certain thershold level. This utilises existing plant without having to build additional plant which sits idle 99% of the time.

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Contrary to Mark G's insinuation its sensible planning by National Grid to utilise existing plant in a more intelligent way. There are hundreds if not thousands of large stationary gen sets around the Country (hospitals, Councils, factories, offices etc etc). These have to be run regularly to cycle through the diesel fuel. NG have been signing up a number of these to act as short notice back up which is mostly needed to deal with large lumpy plant going off line suddenly rather than wind turbines. With the advent of the tinterweb its pretty easy to send an automatic signal to these generators to fire up when grid frequency drops below a certain thershold level. This utilises existing plant without having to build additional plant which sits idle 99% of the time.

Stop making informed posts, there is no place for them on HPC wind-energy threads.....

;)

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Contrary to Mark G's insinuation its sensible planning by National Grid to utilise existing plant in a more intelligent way. There are hundreds if not thousands of large stationary gen sets around the Country (hospitals, Councils, factories, offices etc etc). These have to be run regularly to cycle through the diesel fuel. NG have been signing up a number of these to act as short notice back up which is mostly needed to deal with large lumpy plant going off line suddenly rather than wind turbines. With the advent of the tinterweb its pretty easy to send an automatic signal to these generators to fire up when grid frequency drops below a certain thershold level. This utilises existing plant without having to build additional plant which sits idle 99% of the time.

So that's using existing diesel generation capacity to deal with sudden drops in supply when a large coal, gas or nuclear plant goes offline, and it has nothing to do with wind generation? It sounds like somebody really got the wrong end of the stick here! Perhaps Mark G could reveal the source of his misinformation.

Edited by snowflux

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So that's using existing diesel generation capacity to deal with sudden drops in supply when a large coal, gas or nuclear plant goes offline, and it has nothing to do with wind generation? It sounds like somebody really got the wrong end of the stick here! Perhaps Mark G could reveal the source of his misinformation.

My money is on a Christopher Twonker article in the Torygraph ;)

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This seems extraordinary. Why on earth are house prices relevant to energy policy?

House prices are always relevant- no matter what the story is. For instance, should a man murder, cook and eat his entire extended family the resulting news article in the papers will always include the most vital piece of information- the price of the property in which the grisly event took place;

MAN MURDERS, COOKS AND EATS ENTIRE EXTENDED FAMILY IN HIS £500,000 HOUSE.

Would be how the press would report the event- keeping their eye firmly on the house price issue at all times.

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As an aside how do people feel about solar farms? There's a few planning app's (looks like a lot of capital behind these ventures) going in in my area and there is resistance to them. I haven't seen the applications but they are on private land.

Edited by Ash4781

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As an aside how do people feel about solar farms? There's a few planning app's (looks like a lot of capital behind these ventures) going in in my area and there is resistance to them. I haven't seen the applications but they are on private land.

Solar and clean (er) nuclear is the future.

Wind farms are unreliable (gearboxes), uneconomical and unattractive.

Solar rocks (VI).

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As an aside how do people feel about solar farms? There's a few planning app's (looks like a lot of capital behind these ventures) going in in my area and there is resistance to them. I haven't seen the applications but they are on private land.

While solar power has certainly got its place in the energy mix, I doubt that it's very suitable as a main energy source for the UK for a number of reasons:

1) The UK's not that sunny; we get a lot of cloud, and our northerly location means that the sun doesn't get so high above the horizon.

2) Solar power (high in summer, low in winter) is not a good match to our demand (high in winter, low in summer).

3) Solar panels that aren't on roofs take up significant amounts of land that could be used for other purposes.

Solar is great for countries like Spain (lots of sun, high summer electricity demand for air conditioners, more spare land), but not really for us. Wind is a much better resource for the UK, given that the UK is a windy country, especially in winter, and space used for wind farms can also double as farmland.

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As an aside how do people feel about solar farms? There's a few planning app's (looks like a lot of capital behind these ventures) going in in my area and there is resistance to them. I haven't seen the applications but they are on private land.

Needless to say, you're gonna find some resistance in Blighty.

Here's a picture of how our French cousins do it.

Les-Mees-solar-farm-the-b-001.jpg

Personally I'd like to see a few thousand windmills on the horizon, but then again, this is France and they have a functioning Nuke industry as backup. :)

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While solar power has certainly got its place in the energy mix, I doubt that it's very suitable as a main energy source for the UK for a number of reasons:

1) The UK's not that sunny; we get a lot of cloud, and our northerly location means that the sun doesn't get so high above the horizon.

2) Solar power (high in summer, low in winter) is not a good match to our demand (high in winter, low in summer).

3) Solar panels that aren't on roofs take up significant amounts of land that could be used for other purposes.

Solar is great for countries like Spain (lots of sun, high summer electricity demand for air conditioners, more spare land), but not really for us. Wind is a much better resource for the UK, given that the UK is a windy country, especially in winter, and space used for wind farms can also double as farmland.

I could see the gov adopting solar roof tiles as a de facto standard for new housing/buildings in a couple years (or at least i'd like it to be), given their continually improving economics and falling costs per watt. It also makes sense as you get a two-for-one in terms of installation costs.

But outside of that solar isn't something we should concentrate on for the reasons you stated. Our energies should be focused on the renewables that we have most of, and that match our yearly demand profile best. Namely, wind, wave & tidal.

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Solar and clean (er) nuclear is the future.

Wind farms are unreliable (gearboxes), uneconomical and unattractive.

Solar rocks (VI).

For the UK - water is our future - hydroelectric (there must be some suitable locations?) is a fantastic source of energy. I have also just been reading a biography of someone who repeatedly describes their winter heating being provided from a mill on the local river.

Solar has its place too. Even on cool days my greenhouse seems to overheat very quickly, there must be a way to store this energy for future usage?

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For the UK - water is our future - hydroelectric (there must be some suitable locations?) is a fantastic source of energy. I have also just been reading a biography of someone who repeatedly describes their winter heating being provided from a mill on the local river.

Solar has its place too. Even on cool days my greenhouse seems to overheat very quickly, there must be a way to store this energy for future usage?

Hydro is extremely useful but as for our future well the UK is very limited by Geography. The potential to expand (putting aside all environmental concerns at such schemes) is in the region of 2-2.5GW which might contribute another 2-3% to UK electricity supply.

In terms of volume production of energy the two front runners are wind and solar. Solar has fallen in price dramatically and 10's of GW could be deployed on roof spaces before having to use any land up. Wind - well the UK has a huge area of windy shallow, fish depleted sea bed.

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While solar power has certainly got its place in the energy mix, I doubt that it's very suitable as a main energy source for the UK for a number of reasons:

1) The UK's not that sunny; we get a lot of cloud, and our northerly location means that the sun doesn't get so high above the horizon.

2) Solar power (high in summer, low in winter) is not a good match to our demand (high in winter, low in summer).

3) Solar panels that aren't on roofs take up significant amounts of land that could be used for other purposes.

Solar is great for countries like Spain (lots of sun, high summer electricity demand for air conditioners, more spare land), but not really for us. Wind is a much better resource for the UK, given that the UK is a windy country, especially in winter, and space used for wind farms can also double as farmland.

The price of solar has fallen so much thanks to the heavy lifting Germany and Spain have done that it is increasingly viable even for a UK climate. Also it is worth remembering that output is only in the daytime which which in summer constitutes the demand peak.

With a varied mix, more intelligent demand management and with schemes like what NG are doing there is a lot of capacity to absorb a lot more solar and wind.

Personally I'd like to see the UK develop a new generation of nukes providing baseload with a mix of renewables and gas providing the rest. Squeezing coal out of the mix should be priority as it is a filthy fuel even if you disregard the climate change perspective.

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Needless to say, you're gonna find some resistance in Blighty.

Here's a picture of how our French cousins do it.

Les-Mees-solar-farm-the-b-001.jpg

Personally I'd like to see a few thousand windmills on the horizon, but then again, this is France and they have a functioning Nuke industry as backup. :)

As awful as that looks at the end of the day they can be removed and the land easily returned back to normal use. I suppose one way of looking at it would be that it is a way of resting land.

In the USA they are looking at using some very heavily contaminated sites as solar parks that are useless for anything else even industrial development.

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Naturally. I suspect he will also be arguing that fracking chemcials are full of goodness and benefit for mankind - like he does for other substances such as asbestos. :ph34r:

At the opposite extreme, with his anti-wind turbine crusade he has latched onto the infrasound issue ignoring the fact that if you live by the sea you will be exposed to exponentially higher levels of infrasound than from a wind farm. :lol:

Personally I am not against fracking but I understand peoples concerns if these companies end up polluting the UK's water resources which are limited given the population size. At the same time the Govt are dismantling the UK's environmental regulatory arms (death by a 1000 cuts) so it looks like it will be a free for all. Not to worry the City boys can just import their water from France.....

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While solar power has certainly got its place in the energy mix, I doubt that it's very suitable as a main energy source for the UK for a number of reasons:

Not the main source of power. But it can still be significant. The argument that our climate doesn't suite solar is overstated:

1) The UK's not that sunny; we get a lot of cloud, and our northerly location means that the sun doesn't get so high above the horizon.

The lattitude thing isn't actually that important. A solar panel in the UK pointed towards the sun gets pretty much the same solar energy as a panel at the equator pointed towards the sun. The reason for the difference in climate is that the ground isn't pointed towards the sun.

Cloud is a bigger issue but even when cloudy there is still a lot of light. Otherwise we'd always be bumping into lamposts..

2) Solar power (high in summer, low in winter) is not a good match to our demand (high in winter, low in summer).

The bigger issue is demand for electricity is much higher during the day than during the night. Dwarfs the demand variation of the seasons.

3) Solar panels that aren't on roofs take up significant amounts of land that could be used for other purposes.

No argument here. Using farmland for solar panels is just plain silly.

Plus it negates the biggest advantage of solar power: it doesn't need to compete with the grid price, just the retail price. Solar panels on homes, factories and office blocks may well soon be a no-brainer even without subsidies.

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Naturally. I suspect he will also be arguing that fracking chemcials are full of goodness and benefit for mankind - like he does for other substances such as asbestos. :ph34r:

What I really don't get about the whole push for fracking is that the same people who say this is desctruction of our precious countryside

WindTurbine.jpg

Say this is the saviour of the country:

wyomingfracking_1.jpg

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