GloomMonger Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Also the fact that Mr Al-Fayed was pushing the conspiracy hard, possibly at least in part because as Mr Paul's employer he was at least partly responsible for their deaths. The one thing that doesn't make sense is the fact that the security team allowed a drunk person to drive them in the first place, surely someone should've noticed. I still find it incredible that the driver of such high profile people would have anything to drink. I sometimes have a small bottle of lager and drive but I wouldn't if driving was my job, even a carrot delivery van! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 If there are areas of the British forces/security services that do such 'black ops' - and i wouldn't discount it as in the US it certainly happens (and has been admitted) - in the UK it certainly won't be the SAS. Anyone who thinks that is mental. They are a regiment of the army. They are not 'secret' in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Why nobble a Mercedes when you can nobble a private plane or a helicopter? One way you can be sure that the SAS didn't arrange this. She was still alive when the ambulance got there. Nobble a plane or a helicopter and there would be an in-depth accident investigation of the sort not required for car crashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Nobble a plane or a helicopter and there would be an in-depth accident investigation of the sort not required for car crashes. Well, mostly TWA Flight 800 was back in the news recently. I notice that the wikipedia entry now refers to 'alternative theories' rather than 'conspiracy theories' TWA Flight 800 alternative theories, advocated by independent investigation groups and individuals, including 6 members of the original National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigation team, allege that the crash of Trans World Airlines Flight 800 (TWA 800) was due to causes other than those determined by the NTSB.[1] The NTSB stated that the probable cause of the crash of TWA 800 was an explosion of flammable fuel/air vapors in a fuel tank, most likely from a short-circuit. Alternative theories state that the crash was due to either a U.S. Navy, terrorist missile strike or an on-board bomb. On June 19, 2013, a documentary alleging that the investigation into the crash was a cover-up made news headlines with statements from six members of the original investigation team, now retired, who also filed a petition to reopen the probe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC1 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 A big part of the allure of this particular conspiracy impo is that her death at that time can be seen as a 'result' for the British establishment... . . edit: that wiki link to the 'Burrell Affair' I just posted and its 'See Also' section currently seem a little more, um, contentious than I would usually expect to see on wikipedia On 24 August 2005 Smith died in Newport, Wales[2] of an unknown illness, aged 44. I wonder how they bumped this one off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Also the fact that Mr Al-Fayed was pushing the conspiracy hard, possibly at least in part because as Mr Paul's employer he was at least partly responsible for their deaths. The one thing that doesn't make sense is the fact that the security team allowed a drunk person to drive them in the first place, surely someone should've noticed. Even Mr Fayed has been forced to admit that the ritz bar sold the driver drinks on the evening as shown by video and receipt evidence. As to the marrying a muslim aspect, her previous boyfriend the Pakistani surgeon has said himself that they discussed marriage with the family and representatives of the establishment and no one raised any objections I don't think that mi5 etc are remotely capable of carrying out such an efficienct murder without cocking it up. Sometime if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is ...a duck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_renting Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 My theory is that Elvis killed her, using a bluetooth handset in the Book Depository. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bemusedmover Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 My theory is that Elvis killed her, using a bluetooth handset in the Book Depository. Damm! - I knew the truth would come out eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Diana was being very "celeb" around this time. Believable the driver probably got caught up in the fun and got blasé. A lot, repeat, a lot, of people die in car accidents and pushing the boundaries flooring it around Paris doesn't help your chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I don't think that mi5 etc are remotely capable of carrying out such an efficienct murder without cocking it up. Sometime if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is ...a duck Even leaving aside the obvious difficulties of carrying out such an operation it still doesn't make any sense. Such an operation would need to be sanctioned by HM, the prime minister, the foreign/home secretary, the head of the relevant security service and numerous civil servants inbetween and that's before you even start looking for a team to carry it out with the collusion of their equivilents in France. I can't believe that even one of these people would agree to this let alone all of them. One can see how some conspiracy theories might work: JFK, Lockerbie, Robin Cook and David Kelly could at a stretch be part of larger undiscovered plots, most are however just bats*** insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Such an operation would need to be sanctioned by HM, the prime minister, the foreign/home secretary, the head of the relevant security service and numerous civil servants inbetween and that's before you even start looking for a team to carry it out with the collusion of their equivilents in France. I can't believe that even one of these people would agree to this let alone all of them. A hypothetical scenario here... Imagine that an aggrieved woman who married into the royal family was about to make heinous accusations against a senior member of the royal family. I stress that these accusations need not be true in any way but she is popular with the public and some muck would stick. Enough to provoke a constitutional crisis. How far would people in the positions you refer to be prepared to go? Personally, I suspect a long way. These are people who pass life and death decisions on a routine basis, up to and including wars, sometimes on the poxiest of pretexts. For me, it's not that I believe that people who are born into or seek power would have any moral qualms about condoning extreme measures. I just can't see in this instance how anyone could have pulled it off and primary evidence of foul play is conspicuously absent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC1 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The problem is there are so many things going on there that you'd never get away with it. Off the top of my head you would need to: Tamper with the brakes in a way that would not be noticed by the driver until the fatal moment. Remove all evidence of interfering with the brakes after the crash. Induce the driver to proceed at an unsafe speed. Ensure that the occupants were not wearing seatbelts. Ensure that the crash was of a fatal type (i.e directly into something solid rather than bouncing along the walls). Either get the driver drunk without anyone noticing or somehow fake two separate blood tests. Ensure that the medical care at the scene was incompetent. Ensure that no-one saw you doing any of the above. Ensure that the subsequent investigations by both the French and British authorities found no evidence. So to pull it off you'd need at least half a dozen random variables to fall in your favour plus the collusion of dozens if not hundreds of people of both British and French nationality. Some conspiracy theories make sense, this isn't one of them. Massive overestimation, imo. I'm fairly agnostic on this one tbh, so I don't have any particular axe to grind either way. BUT, I don't actually think it would be as hard as all that for a well resourced black ops unit with backing at the highest levels of the establishment... One person to nobble the driver (chatting at the bar, spike his drink), one person to nobble the car (maybe even the same person, but probably at least a pair), and then one person (or several in different vehicles) to remotely operate the devices that fail the brakes and/or make sure the steering only works in one direction (could be tiny positioned explosive charges within the electrics - just a guess, I'm no special ops expert!), and then possibly ram into the car if necessary etc. And then there would of course be a certain degree of clear up - removing any evidence from the wreckage or stealing/planting blood test results etc. But, really, how difficult would this be for people who either are or can get the right ID cards to pass as intelligence service operatives? I'd guess not that difficult really. Put into the mix a whole messy heap of coordinated disinformation and misdirection via the media, and nobody can really sort the facts from the speculation and downright lies. I guess the credibility of the above rests on whether or not you believe there exists a ruthless criminal element at the highest level of 'the Establishment'. I happen to think that this is a given.... But, like I say, I'm noncommittal on this specific case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC1 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 How far would people in the positions you refer to be prepared to go? Personally, I suspect a long way. These are people who pass life and death decisions on a routine basis, up to and including wars, sometimes on the poxiest of pretexts. Motive and lack of morality at taking life are clearly ticked off the list for me, so that just leaves the means. And I'm fairly confident that they had that too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Even if you could find out that information it wouldn't be much use as Diana's injuries were described at the inquest as not average but 'rare' The inquest also heard that Diana's rare injuries suggested her heart had been thrown violently forward inside her chest when the car crashed in the Pont de l'Alma Tunnel in Paris. There were no recorded cases of patients with the same injuries arriving at hospital alive, the court was told. But it was working well enough at the scene to allow her to be conscious and agitatedly refusing treatment? What's the medical term for 'heart had been thrown violently forward inside her chest'? (Caused by strong rotational force) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_renting Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 But it was working well enough at the scene to allow her to be conscious and agitatedly refusing treatment? I don't believe there are any credible sources supporting that claim. Also, one has only to look at the severity of the damage to the car (and remember she was not wearing a seat belt) to doubt she was concious. And why would she refuse treatment? She would at the very least have been seriously injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I seem to remember hearing that French and British practice differed in this area; IIRC British practice was to patch them up a bit then get them off to hospital ASAP, French practice was to do a lot more work at the scene and then move them. Perhaps Chumpus or someone else medically trained can shed a bit more light. You remember correctly. The French have been criticised for this practice. I believe she was taken to the Pitié-Salpêtrière Hospital whereas Val-de-Grâce may have been more logical from Pont Alma, esp. given her status, just a drive up the smooth Montparnesse boulevard rather than a bumpy cobble journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I believe she was taken to the Pitié-Salpêtrière Hospital whereas Val-de-Grâce may have been more logical from Pont Alma, esp. given her status, just a drive up the smooth Montparnesse boulevard rather than a bumpy cobble journey. I'm not sure but a quick look at wikipedia suggests Val de Grace is not equiped to deal with trauma cases, the decision to go to Pitié-Salpêtrière was due to the fact that it was the main centre for multiple trauma and to my inexpert eyes it looks correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm not sure but a quick look at wikipedia suggests Val de Grace is not equiped to deal with trauma cases, the decision to go to Pitié-Salpêtrière was due to the fact that it was the main centre for multiple trauma and to my inexpert eyes it looks correct. Seems reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I don't believe there are any credible sources supporting that claim. Also, one has only to look at the severity of the damage to the car (and remember she was not wearing a seat belt) to doubt she was concious. And why would she refuse treatment? She would at the very least have been seriously injured. That part is backed up by inquest evidence DT: Princess Diana 'agitated' in minutes after crash Diana, Princess of Wales, was so frantic in the minutes after her car crashed in a Paris tunnel that doctors had to restrain her, the inquest into her death has heard.The Princess was shouting and thrashing her arms around, and pulled out the drip a doctor tried to insert into her arm while she was still trapped in the vehicle... Assessing the significance would have us playing trauma specialist, a bit like the David Kelly business (BBC: Doctors demand formal inquest for Dr David Kelly). I'll pass on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The Andanson/Fiat Uno/suicide part is probably the most likely to be suspicious if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 The Star - yes, the Star - is reporting that one of the photographers has been found dead in a car with two bulletsin his head. The Police allegedly say it is suicide. Double tap suicide - whatever next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 The Star - yes, the Star - is reporting that one of the photographers has been found dead in a car with two bulletsin his head. The Police allegedly say it is suicide. Double tap suicide - whatever next? http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/342791/Diana-assassin-silenced-in-suicide-mystery But Andanson, who had links with the Secret Service, died mysteriously after meeting author Fredieric Dard to discuss the book that would “blow the lid off a conspiracy”. He was found in a torched car with two bullet wounds in his head, but the authorities ruled it was suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Double tap suicide - whatever next? wiki: Gary Webb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 wiki: Gary Webb I see the Star is reporting up to date news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I see the Star is reporting up to date news. In Internet Years that happened something like a century ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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