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Adam

Sharia Law

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I know they keep exploding in the most inconvenient places, and are incredibly bad pilots, but would this one part of Islamic law make our world a better place?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3548656.stm

What is Sharia law?

Under Sharia Islamic law, making money from money, such as charging interest, is usury and therefore not permitted.

Wealth should be generated only through legitimate trade and investment in assets.

A world where true wealth can only be generated by creating true value sounds ideal to me. That way, you get what you work for. Economic growth would be REAL economic growth. What WOULD the world be like?

Imagine what lending restrictions would be like if when the bank lent someone money, they actually used YOUR savings i.e. your account was reduced by what they lend. Then they'd only lend if there was a good chance of you both making a profit. We haven't had a real discussion on economic reform in this country since the 1800's. That can't be a good thing. The current model just doesn't work.

P.S. Joking aside (before I'm hunted down and killed) I'm an atheist and think the recent bombings were a human tragedy. I deplore all acts of hate and violence.

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I know they keep exploding in the most inconvenient places, and are incredibly bad pilots, but would this one part of Islamic law make our world a better place?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3548656.stm

A world where true wealth can only be generated by creating true value sounds ideal to me. That way, you get what you work for. Economic growth would be REAL economic growth. What WOULD the world be like?

This thinking isn't unique to Islam, many other faiths like Christianity have usury laws and they were enacted in our common law until relatively recently, much like Today's search for sobriety other vices like the corrosive nature of debt and the behaviour of banks is hardly a new phenomenon, these laws were still in place in the US up until 1980, their removal lead to the credit card as we know it today :-

By 1980 Citibank was being squeezed between New York state usury laws and double-digit inflation rates. "You are lending money at 12 percent and paying 20 percent," Mr. Wriston explained. "You don't have to be Einstein to realize you're out of business.''

The bank employed 3,000 people in its credit card unit in Long Island at the time, a fact that Mr. Wriston hoped would entice New York lawmakers to offer relief. "All you have to do is lift the usury ceiling to some reasonable amount and we'll stay here," Mr. Wriston recalled telling New York's political leaders. "And they said, 'Ah, ha! You really won't move. We're not going to do anything.'"

[...]

In an effort to stimulate the local economy, South Dakota was in the midst of eliminating its usury laws. Mr. Wriston told Mr. Janklow that if South Dakota would quickly pass a bill inviting Citibank into the state, he would bring 400 jobs.

Anyway, sharia mortgages are really just a bit of clever semantics, to avoid the issue of paying interest the bank buys the property and then the buyer purchases it from them by renting it over a length of time at a slightly increased price, this is interest by any other name but obviously has different ethical consequences. The problem until recently was the fact this was classed as two transactions hence there was double stamp duty penalty, this was resolved a couple of years back.

Interestingly in many middle-eastern countries the charging of interest does occur like it does in the West, places like the Dubai International Financial Centre would be at a slight disadvantage otherwise.

So it doesn't look like faith is going to solve your money problems I'm afraid, unless you become a raving televangelist or something, there has always been debtors and lenders regardless of the laws or regime.

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1) Buy a house with a sharia compliant mortgage

2) Somehow get made redundant

3) Arrange for "rent" to be paid by housing benefit

4) Lead a life of leisure for a few years

5) Take ownership of the house paid for by UK taxpayer

Yes, I can understand why some people find this country so attractive.

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1) Buy a house with a sharia compliant mortgage

2) Somehow get made redundant

3) Arrange for "rent" to be paid by housing benefit

4) Lead a life of leisure for a few years

5) Take ownership of the house paid for by UK taxpayer

Yes, I can understand why some people find this country so attractive.

I have known many muslems.. and all I have met have been the most peaceful and good people..

If we want to tar the entire religion with dirt from a few extremists that doesent bode too well for all religions..

Mentioning the crusades here make the point..

and if we want to stop the extremists.. perhaps bombing them back to the stone age should stop..

Air strikes accidently hitting wedding parties in iraq is also terrorism..

a friend had one of these mortgages... and yup.. you are right.. its not called interest.. but it is really.. sort of..

They don't eat pork, niether do the jews.. both orriginated from a hot climates where pork turns to poison....

and Jesus.. he is in the kuran, as a religious figure..

Look for the similarities in religions and rejoice.. not fear..

In wolverhampton the politicalally correct body wouldn't let christmas lights mention christmas..

Until an indian gentleman raised the point that it was ridiculous..

the Political correct lobbies are more dangerous then the BNP..

and if you think that settled migrants from the 50's and 60's do not see the same problem with migration nowadays as the rest of us... you havent spoken to many..

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1) Buy a house with a sharia compliant mortgage

2) Somehow get made redundant

3) Arrange for "rent" to be paid by housing benefit

4) Lead a life of leisure for a few years

5) Take ownership of the house paid for by UK taxpayer

Yes, I can understand why some people find this country so attractive.

You don't need a sharia mortgage to do this. I know someone who has done this and it is perfectly legal.

About 10/15 years ago this person was unemployed - had kids and needed somewhere to live.

1) Got a job for 6 months

2) Got a mortgage and bought a house (about £55k)

3) Gave up job

4) Housing Benefit pay most of the mortgage (they pay one part - interest or capital?)

5) Now sitting on a house valued at £250K with mortgage repayments that are less than the rent on a council house.

Nice profit at the tax payers expense.

For those who like to have a bash at the 'free house' they seem to think a council house is it is the above that is the real scandal. Don't forget many people in council houses work and pay rent.

Also - note the time scale of this.

There have been a few threads on here that have talked about what will happen to the availability of credit if it all goes t1its up. Well from what I remember from last time there was no serious credit crunch. In fact after a short 'breather' the banks soon realised that they were getting very little mortgage business and relaxed mortgage lending. I seem to recall it being perfectly possible to get a mortgage if you were on benefit!

IMHO it is the lax lending following the last crash that is partly to blame for the current housing and credit bubble.

Banks need to lend money to make money

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I'm an Agnostic in case you're wondering... :D

I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac - I lay awake all night wondering if there really is a dog! :D

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Rigid adherence to Usury laws means that islamic countries can't have a properly functioning market economy and therefore, unless they are sitting on most of the world's oil, shall remain perpetually poor and therefore a huge problem to everyone else.

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I know they keep exploding in the most inconvenient places, and are incredibly bad pilots, but would this one part of Islamic law make our world a better place?

We'll probably find out sooner or later the way things are going in the UK ;)

I have to agree though it would be an interesting concept, and I'd love to hear an economists prediction of what things would be like without making money from interest.

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Judging by the number of middle eastern landlords there are in London, I have a strong feeling that you will be disappointed when I tell you that charging rent for property is probably one of the more honest ways these people can make money.

One more for the rise of the landlords there........

Whether they agree to pay interest to the bank or finance the property in some other way is really irrelevant.

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Britain’s first Islamic bank opened a while back. Muslims are not supposed to engage in usury, yet modern life is impossible without it, so they have come up with all kinds of wheezes to pull the wool over God’s eyes.

With an Islamic mortgage, for example, the bank buys the house then "rents" it to you. Some of this “rent” goes towards buying the bank’s share of the house, until eventually you own it. Just like a normal mortgage. But because the bank is technically the owner, you have not, technically, borrowed any money. On paper, you and the bank are both still eligible for heaven.

You would need to have a pretty low opinion of your creator to think He could be taken in by this type of scheming. If God said no to usury, presumably He meant it. If I were God, I'd throw bolts of lightning at them.

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Heh heh. I am actually a muslim (convert) but not a very strict one.

Giving up bacon, wine or interest on my savings account - doesn't happen. I don't get drunk any more though.

Sharia banking is all a bit of a fudge, with all sorts of "guaranteed profit sharing" for the "investor" that just so happens to track LIBOR as if it were "interest" for a "lender". And a lot of mezzanine type finance (one of the criteria is that the investor must be seen to be taking some risk) HSBC is a big player.

As for forgiving debts if they cannot be paid back, that exists in UK - it is called bankruptcy.

The "successful" islamic countries (Malaysia, Dubai) allow normal, interest rate based banking. Sharia banking exists, but it is seen as between you and Allah if you want to sin or not, and not the State's job to force you to be good.

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I have known many muslems.. and all I have met have been the most peaceful and good people..

If we want to tar the entire religion with dirt from a few extremists that doesent bode too well for all religions..

Mentioning the crusades here make the point..

and if we want to stop the extremists.. perhaps bombing them back to the stone age should stop..

Air strikes accidently hitting wedding parties in iraq is also terrorism..

a friend had one of these mortgages... and yup.. you are right.. its not called interest.. but it is really.. sort of..

They don't eat pork, niether do the jews.. both orriginated from a hot climates where pork turns to poison....

and Jesus.. he is in the kuran, as a religious figure..

Look for the similarities in religions and rejoice.. not fear..

In wolverhampton the politicalally correct body wouldn't let christmas lights mention christmas..

Until an indian gentleman raised the point that it was ridiculous..

the Political correct lobbies are more dangerous then the BNP..

and if you think that settled migrants from the 50's and 60's do not see the same problem with migration nowadays as the rest of us... you havent spoken to many..

The Crusades were defensive actions against the aggressive expansion of Islam from Arabia, which had enforced Dhimmi status (inferior status and restrictions on non-Muslims) and the jizya tax on non-Muslims in formerly Christian Syria, Egypt, Palestine, Turkey and North africa. The alternative to Dhimmitude and the jizya was conversion or death. This expansion and the intention to continue into Europe (as it did until the defeat of the Muslim armies at Vienna) is the context for the Crusades. That expansion is the reason why Christians are a tiny and often persecuted minority (as are Jews and Zoroastrians) in what we now consider Muslim countries and why we have religious problems between Christians and the descendants of forced converts in the Balkans.

Your characterisation of the Crusades as offensive is simply wrong. Equivocation between religions ("they are all the same really") is ignorant, politically correct gloss over very major differences now and historically in theory and sadly in practice. The Koran talks about love and charity towards your fellow man on many occasions but specifically only if he is a Muslim. Look at the Hadith for interpretation.

Jesus is seen as a prophet in Islam, as you sort of say, but antipathy towards Christians from Muslims has been extreme because the Koran rejects any notion that Jesus was divine as offensive to their concept of monotheism. It also rejects the resurrection, although they probably have a point on that one.

Not all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist supporters obviously but read the Koran yourself and see what it actually says about non-Muslims (kuffirs) and you might be better informed. If your Moslem friends are not religious, they may well not know or care what the Koran actually says, which is fine. If they are, then ask them about Koranic views about other religions, Dhimmi and jizya and about the violent spread of Islam over the last 1400 years that is currently still causing problems in the Phillipines, Thailand, Nigeria, Sudan , Balkans, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Indonesia and elsewhere. In all cases, Muslims will not suffer for long being a minority in a non-Muslim country and will use force to pursue their goals of secession and dominance. They will attempt to oppress other religions where they are dominant.

I am more or less agnostic by the way...

S.

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The Crusades were defensive actions against the aggressive expansion of Islam from Arabia, which had enforced Dhimmi status (inferior status and restrictions on non-Muslims) and the jizya tax on non-Muslims in formerly Christian Syria, Egypt, Palestine, Turkey and North africa. The alternative to Dhimmitude and the jizya was conversion or death. This expansion and the intention to continue into Europe (as it did until the defeat of the Muslim armies at Vienna) is the context for the Crusades. That expansion is the reason why Christians are a tiny and often persecuted minority (as are Jews and Zoroastrians) in what we now consider Muslim countries and why we have religious problems between Christians and the descendants of forced converts in the Balkans.

Your characterisation of the Crusades as offensive is simply wrong. Equivocation between religions ("they are all the same really") is ignorant, politically correct gloss over very major differences now and historically in theory and sadly in practice. The Koran talks about love and charity towards your fellow man on many occasions but specifically only if he is a Muslim. Look at the Hadith for interpretation.

Jesus is seen as a prophet in Islam, as you sort of say, but antipathy towards Christians from Muslims has been extreme because the Koran rejects any notion that Jesus was divine as offensive to their concept of monotheism. It also rejects the resurrection, although they probably have a point on that one.

Not all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist supporters obviously but read the Koran yourself and see what it actually says about non-Muslims (kuffirs) and you might be better informed. If your Moslem friends are not religious, they may well not know or care what the Koran actually says, which is fine. If they are, then ask them about Koranic views about other religions, Dhimmi and jizya and about the violent spread of Islam over the last 1400 years that is currently still causing problems in the Phillipines, Thailand, Nigeria, Sudan , Balkans, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Indonesia and elsewhere. In all cases, Muslims will not suffer for long being a minority in a non-Muslim country and will use force to pursue their goals of secession and dominance. They will attempt to oppress other religions where they are dominant.

I am more or less agnostic by the way...

S.

They're not very nice to woman either. I think it is time for people in the west, religious or not, to be able to say without fear of being accused of 'islamophobia' or 'prejudice' that islam is not civilised. It turns my stomach to see the opportunistic chumminess of the Guardian-reading classes with islam.

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Of course, having converted to islam for cultural reasons (my wife is javanese, and it kept her family happy) after a few years my wife and much of her family have converted to Buddhism...!

As I am basically agnostic about the whole thing, haven't followed. For my wife and her family, spiritual life is very important, but not for me. Hasn't been an issue in the marriage anyway

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They're not very nice to woman either.

I think it is time for people in the west, religious or not, to be able to say without fear of being accused of 'islamophobia' or 'prejudice' that islam is not civilised. It turns my stomach to see the opportunistic chumminess of the Guardian-reading classes with islam.

Scooter

to me islam seems the real religion. i reverted 2 years ago.

though i still nip at a pimms and sadly, i still smoke.

as for all the bad press, the bombers are not islamic. they seperate when they decide to kill innocents.

a real muslim cant kill under any circumstances. jihad or not. though some will have you beleive they can in self defence - but they really cant. its a real no no. same for honour killings. thats all pakistani nonsense. you kill and you cant be islamic. simple as.

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you kill and you cant be islamic. simple as.

According to this poll

8% said such terrorist attacks on Britain would be justified.

So you're saying one thing and others are saying the opposite. Who's right? Your debate isn't with me, it's with that 8% of terrorist supporters, which come to about 160000 people of the 2 million Muslims in the UK. Even if it is only a small minority, it's a heck of a lot of people.

On the plus side

But, more than two thirds of the 500 Muslims polled by telephone over the weekend said they felt patriotic about Britain.

Which is probably more than on this site.

And what is exactly is the purpose of this sort of thing? Heroically fighting the Yankee Imperialists?

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Of course, having converted to islam for cultural reasons (my wife is javanese, and it kept her family happy) after a few years my wife and much of her family have converted to Buddhism...!

As I am basically agnostic about the whole thing, haven't followed. For my wife and her family, spiritual life is very important, but not for me. Hasn't been an issue in the marriage anyway

I used to travel to Indonesia a lot for biz in the 90s where there seemed to be a very laid back mix of Islam with pre-Islamic traditions (certainly no problem getting a beer and everyone seemed to drink, Muslim or not) but since the conflicts in Ambon and sporadic violence in Sulawesi, this seems to have changed a bit.

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to me islam seems the real religion. i reverted 2 years ago.

though i still nip at a pimms and sadly, i still smoke.

as for all the bad press, the bombers are not islamic. they seperate when they decide to kill innocents.

a real muslim cant kill under any circumstances. jihad or not. though some will have you beleive they can in self defence - but they really cant. its a real no no. same for honour killings. thats all pakistani nonsense. you kill and you cant be islamic. simple as.

Why are you showing the above quote with my name? It is from BoredTrainBuilder, not me.

As for your interpretation of Islam, it does not in any way represent what the Koran actually says or how most mainstream Muslim theologians interpret it. The bombers most certainly are Islamic and use literal readings of the Koran as justification for their actions. If I have the time, I will quote you the some of the particular suras and hadith in a later post. Unfortunately, I find the interpretations of Bin Laden and the like more accurate than those of "liberal" Muslims (like you?). You may not want a Caliphate but they do and that is what the Koran instructs. If "real Muslims cannot kill" what were they doing when the Muslim empire invaded the rest of the Middle East, Africa, the Caucasus, India and much of Europe and forced Islam on much of the population? Why are people who state that their motivation is paradise and 72 virgins (or "white fruits" depending on your translation) per the Koran murdering civilians-including many other Muslims-in so many countries including the UK if they are not Muslims?

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Rigid adherence to Usury laws means that islamic countries can't have a properly functioning market economy and therefore, unless they are sitting on most of the world's oil, shall remain perpetually poor and therefore a huge problem to everyone else.

I don't believe this is true. People don't seem to be able to imagine an economy where interest is illegal, just because they don't try. You don't need interest to have a market economy.

At the end of the day interest rates don't work at all.

Read this:

I WANT THE EARTH PLUS 5%

http://www.cfoss.com/earth.html

If the government prints £100 of cash and lends it to the public at 5%pa - WHERE DOES THE EXTRA £5 COME FROM TO PAY THEM BACK? Its impossible. It just doesn't work. The £5 cannot be repaid, so guess what? They lend you some more.......suddenly the country is in a trillion pounds of debt. And we're supposed to be a rich country!

now tell me why you think our economy is based on sound principles?

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you can have a dig at the bearded murderers all you want. i agree. they have been sold a lie of interprestation. temptation to do the work of evil. some fall for it and kill. its a trap.

you can interpret the quoran in many ways to justify you own means, but this is a distortion of the truth to your own will. its a crime against the creation.

the quoran is a simple instruction book of life. all the 72 virgin bit is sort of abstract version of paradise. at the time they didnt have anything other to represent it by. not to be taken in context. though by killing anyone with a bomb would rule out any chance paradise.

no - the real muslim warriors are the ones that spread islam though peace and learning. these are the true. if you are willing to die for your cause then you are a martyr. provided you dont take anyone else with you.

the london bombers, had they understood the true meanings of the quoran would have taken themselves to a public place and blown themselves up only in protest. like the vietnamese buddist monks that burned themselves in public. this is true martrydom. anything else is simple murder.

sad thing is. i think they know it.

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you can have a dig at the bearded murderers all you want. i agree. they have been sold a lie of interprestation. temptation to do the work of evil. some fall for it and kill. its a trap.

you can interpret the quoran in many ways to justify you own means, but this is a distortion of the truth to your own will. its a crime against the creation.

the quoran is a simple instruction book of life. all the 72 virgin bit is sort of abstract version of paradise. at the time they didnt have anything other to represent it by. not to be taken in context. though by killing anyone with a bomb would rule out any chance paradise.

no - the real muslim warriors are the ones that spread islam though peace and learning. these are the true. if you are willing to die for your cause then you are a martyr. provided you dont take anyone else with you.

the london bombers, had they understood the true meanings of the quoran would have taken themselves to a public place and blown themselves up only in protest. like the vietnamese buddist monks that burned themselves in public. this is true martrydom. anything else is simple murder.

sad thing is. i think they know it.

I wish you were right (really) but unfortunately I think you are in denial.

As for the Koran being a simple guide to life, I beg to differ. It rehashed the old and new testaments but called all the major figures Muslims thus rewriting and claiming the Jewish and Christian religions as Islam. It also said that Mohammed, an illiterate, was the last ever prophet so no one could ever dispute what he said he was told by the Angel Gabriel (Jibril), including that everyone must do as he, the Prophet, told them becasue God/Gabriel said so. In physical terms rehashing Christianity/Judaism reminds me of the Muslim habit of turning other people's shrines into mosques (eg Qabba in Mecca previosuly pagan, Temple Mount and various churches in Jerusalem, St John Church Damsacus, St Sophia (?) Istanbul all now mosques). To this were added a code of laws and prohibitions (some contradictory but to be fair so were a lot of earlier codes) and what I would describe as a blueprint for the military spread of Islam from Arabia to everywhere and subjugation of non-Muslims.

Why do you not comment on dhimmi status for non-Muslims (not allowed to bear arms, ride horses, build houses/walls higher than Muslim owned buildings, cannot display outwardly their religious symbols, get out of the way of Muslims in the street), jizya tax and the like? This is very clearly in the Koran and you only have to look at Saudi, Sudan, Egypt and elsewhere to see that Christians today are either a tiny minority after centuries of oppression (eg Egypt, Syria, Palestine) or have disappeared altogether (eg Saudi Arabia, previously a heavily Jewish, Christian and Pagan area but where now no other religion is allowed so dhimmitude is no longer needed ).

S.

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I wish you were right (really) but unfortunately I think you are in denial.

As for the Koran being a simple guide to life, I beg to differ. It rehashed the old and new testaments but called all the major figures Muslims thus rewriting and claiming the Jewish and Christian religions as Islam. It also said that Mohammed, an illiterate, was the last ever prophet so no one could ever dispute what he said he was told by the Angel Gabriel (Jibril), including that everyone must do as he, the Prophet, told them becasue God/Gabriel said so. In physical terms rehashing Christianity/Judaism reminds me of the Muslim habit of turning other people's shrines into mosques (eg Qabba in Mecca previosuly pagan, Temple Mount and various churches in Jerusalem, St John Church Damsacus, St Sophia (?) Istanbul all now mosques). To this were added a code of laws and prohibitions (some contradictory but to be fair so were a lot of earlier codes) and what I would describe as a blueprint for the military spread of Islam from Arabia to everywhere and subjugation of non-Muslims.

Why do you not comment on dhimmi status for non-Muslims (not allowed to bear arms, ride horses, build houses/walls higher than Muslim owned buildings, cannot display outwardly their religious symbols, get out of the way of Muslims in the street), jizya tax and the like? This is very clearly in the Koran and you only have to look at Saudi, Sudan, Egypt and elsewhere to see that Christians today are either a tiny minority after centuries of oppression (eg Egypt, Syria, Palestine) or have disappeared altogether (eg Saudi Arabia, previously a heavily Jewish, Christian and Pagan area but where now no other religion is allowed so dhimmitude is no longer needed ).

S.

ive read the quoran and cant find any of this bit.

it simply says there is one god only. a sweeping statement, but also very true.

these bits you refer to are the doings of men - not the words of the prophet.

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ive read the quoran and cant find any of this bit.

it simply says there is one god only. a sweeping statement, but also very true.

these bits you refer to are the doings of men - not the words of the prophet.

Reread it. The Koran is entirely the word of man, but is allegedly the words of Mohamed transcribed by his followers claiming to be what he was told by Gabriel on behalf of God. The Hadith are commentary by men but they are treated as almost as unquestionable as the Koran itself. Implicitly you seem to accept the aggressive, colonialist role of Islam and mistreatment of non-Muslims but blame it on men misguided in their understanding of Islam. If this is true, then most Muslims over the ages have been misguided in you view, perhaps.

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That's really interesting RFD. My sister-in-law is a revert too.

What encouraged you to become a Muslim? Does it stop you from enjoying your sherry? What was wrong with good 'ol fashioned, honest to goodness Anglicanism? ;)

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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