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Number Of Romanians And Bulgarians Working In Uk Jumps By Over 25% In Three Months


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I live in London and disagree with your observation.

I also disagree, but I would agree that the rich/wealthier Britons benefit a great deal on the cheaper flexible labour with few working rights.....they can get the jobs they want doing for less cost, so city workers get cheaper sandwiches and coffees, cheaper home extensions, better dividends paid, they are not in competition directly with the low paid workers like many are they only benefit from them.....privatise gains, publicise losses springs to mind yet again. ;)

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I also disagree, but I would agree that the rich/wealthier Britons benefit a great deal on the cheaper flexible labour with few working rights.....they can get the jobs they want doing for less cost, so city workers get cheaper sandwiches and coffees, cheaper home extensions, better dividends paid, they are not in competition directly with the low paid workers like many are they only benefit from them.....privatise gains, publicise losses springs to mind yet again. ;)

Agree with you there. Definitely an element of this going on.

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I also disagree, but I would agree that the rich/wealthier Britons benefit a great deal on the cheaper flexible labour with few working rights.....they can get the jobs they want doing for less cost, so city workers get cheaper sandwiches and coffees, cheaper home extensions, better dividends paid, they are not in competition directly with the low paid workers like many are they only benefit from them.....privatise gains, publicise losses springs to mind yet again. ;)

Yep. I don't agree with the scapegoating of specific nationalities, but it is the case that the combination of globalisation and open borders, has harmed the working classes immensely, at least here in the UK.

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Yep. I don't agree with the scapegoating of specific nationalities, but it is the case that the combination of globalisation and open borders, has harmed the working classes immensely, at least here in the UK.

I'm not convinced that isolation and closed borders would have harmed them any less.

While I appreciate that sudden large movements of population can place large demands on planning and cultural cohesion, as a liberal I tend towards the view that, ideally, no-one should have the right to tell me or anyone else where they are permitted to live.

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I think it is fairly likely that you are a racist and a biggot. Perhaps they are on the dole, but unlikely because their visa will clearly state that they have no entitlement to state benefits.

More likely they are working in the fields picking produce that Brits are too proud and lazy to do themselves.

Funnily enough, you don't see a great deal of produce growing in the central reservation of Park Lane.

But anyway, you feel that increased immigration from any country would be good news for those wishing to see lower house prices and rents?

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Yep. I don't agree with the scapegoating of specific nationalities, but it is the case that the combination of globalisation and open borders, has harmed the working classes immensely, at least here in the UK.

It is only when money is tight that the tensions will grow....I do wonder sometimes if the governments are interested or even listen to the views of the working class tax payers, maybe throwing tax credits etc at them helps pacify them somewhat....I think the way things are going a growing number of all kinds of workers will be asking for cheaper homes and greater state top-ups going into the future.....will we be able to afford this and more, what will be the alternative? ;)

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I'm not convinced that isolation and closed borders would have harmed them any less.

While I appreciate that sudden large movements of population can place large demands on planning and cultural cohesion, as a liberal I tend towards the view that, ideally, no-one should have the right to tell me or anyone else where they are permitted to live.

Could I respectfully ask you to expand on this?

The population of China and India added together is 2.6 billion. Suppose 10% of Chinese and Indians wanted to live in the UK, then that would boost our population from 63.7 million to 323.7 million.

Because it seems to me that you can either be a liberal, or an HPC'er, but not both. Which side are you on?

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I'm not convinced that isolation and closed borders would have harmed them any less.

While I appreciate that sudden large movements of population can place large demands on planning and cultural cohesion, as a liberal I tend towards the view that, ideally, no-one should have the right to tell me or anyone else where they are permitted to live.

"It's damaging to society but I don't care"

edit, thinking about it more, this really displays the qualities that I find difficult to understand-social cohesion can go by the wayside in pursuit of an open-border ideal, despite the logical flaws such an ideal entails. The stance is justified on the basis that people's lives, if blighted, would have been equally affected in different ways had the policy not been in place.

Edited by cheeznbreed
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Because it seems to me that you can either be a liberal, or an HPC'er, but not both. Which side are you on?

Or you can remove the incentive to come here.

The choice isn't between liberal views or HPC

The choice is between;

1. A generous welfare system giving recipients a better standard of living than 90% of the worlds population

2. Open borders

For some reason I have trouble explaining this to people without them thinking I'm a fascist advocating the removal of the first option, or a racist advocating the removal of the second. Or even a racist fascist advocating the removal of both.

Edit: Clarity

Edited by SpectrumFX
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"It's damaging to society but I don't care"

edit, thinking about it more, this really displays the qualities that I find difficult to understand-social cohesion can go by the wayside in pursuit of an open-border ideal, despite the logical flaws such an ideal entails. The stance is justified on the basis that people's lives, if blighted, would have been equally affected in different ways had the policy not been in place.

No, that's not what I meant. Perhaps I wasn't expressing myself very well. What I was trying to say is that, as a liberal, I believe that the state shouldn't dictate people's lives any more than necessary, such as telling them where they are or are not permitted to live. However, I accept that, for reasons of planning and social cohesion, it is necessary for the state to limit freedom of movement to some extent.

In general, I think openness and engagement with the rest of the world, while bringing some of its own problems, is better that state-imposed isolationism for both cultural and economic reasons, and is a good ideal to aim for.

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Funnily enough, you don't see a great deal of produce growing in the central reservation of Park Lane.

But anyway, you feel that increased immigration from any country would be good news for those wishing to see lower house prices and rents?

This thread is about Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants not a handful of Romanian gypsies in Hyde Park.

I never stated that I wanted unlimited immigration. I simply stated that most of those coming were likely to be working.

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In general, I think openness and engagement with the rest of the world, while bringing some of its own problems, is better that state-imposed isolationism for both cultural and economic reasons, and is a good ideal to aim for.

Well that unfortunate development could happen after globalisation collapses (when it sucks the consumer base dry and the corporate elites win a pyric victory) and we witness similar Arab Spring style civil unrest in developed countries in ten to twenty years time. And most immigrants are not directly to blame per se for the economic woes in the UK and many may be a net benefit in of themselves, but mass immigration seemed to be successfully used as a tool to suppress wages and overload a lot of housing/infrastructure/services bottlenecks.

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Much seasonal work is done like this as you say, a few years ago I think there was a lot of media attention given to the fact that the strawberry crop was under threat due to a lack of labour. I don't recall the offered wages rising to help recruitment though.(might be wrong about that)

It's a bit of a cheap shot to talk about laziness and pride though. Many of these jobs are simply too badly paid to work on anything other than a 'working holiday' basis from another country where costs are lower. Same happens in IT with intra-company transfers. Temporary period slumming it allows much more possibilities back home.

Most young people I come across are smart, professional and polite.

There was an epidemic of lazyitis, brought on by a fall in the pound relative to the polish zoloty. As Ah-so can attest from his wide ranging experience in meeting UK sufferers, this crippling disease causes all motivation to work to be lost.

Fortunately the known cure of paying higher wages was not needed in this case, as the other eastern european nations were disease free, given that their much better exchange rates meant that after working in the UK for a few years, it was possible buy a house outright back home.

Further outbreaks are possible at any moment, however, so this situation may change. Luckily we have Ah-so who is busy keeping his eye on the situation, via reading daily mail pages about welfare scroungers.

Edited by alexw
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There was an epidemic of lazyitis, brought on by a fall in the pound relative to the polish zoloty. As Ah-so can attest from his wide ranging experience in meeting UK sufferers, this crippling disease causes all motivation to work to be lost.

Fortunately the known cure of paying higher wages was not needed in this case, as the other eastern european nations were disease free, given that their much better exchange rates meant that after working in the UK for a few years, it was possible buy a house outright back home.

Further outbreaks are possible at any moment, however, so this situation may change. Luckily we have Ah-so who is busy keeping his eye on the situation, via reading daily mail pages about welfare scroungers.

Believed it or not I do not read the mail, otherwise I would be obsessed with gypsies like Harry Monk.

Unfortunately the work ethic is lower amongst our youth than immigrants. A plumber I know told me how hard it is to get Brits to start in the trade, many who object to getting their clothes dirty. The East Europeans just get down to it and turn up on time.

Admittedly my earlier comment that aroused shots from both sides was probably an overreaction to Harry Monk's rather unpleasant post. Plenty of Brits are hardworking, but there is an element that isn't and money alone will not change behaviour.

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So did the Romans, and they never worked in their own fields.

I had some jobs working in fields harvesting stuff when I was younger, there was always enough staff, the work was bloody tough going though but the money wasn't bad really.I have to admit though that quite a few of the workers were people claiming benefits- I recall a couple of police raids where workers would try and run away over the fields so they wouldnt get caught (difficult to run in wellies haha)- I had nothing to hide so other than losing 10 minutes of my time I was un-affected (piece rate)

The locals only stopped doing the work when the large numbers of migrant workers came. It was all organised with the immigrants living on site (in caravans) and being charged rent out of their wages. Although not impossible it was much more difficult for locals to get their foot in the door, and you would be surrounded all day by people speaking a different language- this was enough to put most Local people off.

I thought I'd say my piece on this subject because I'm one of the people that have actually done this type of work and have first hand experience of the situation (in my area anyway)

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This thread is about Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants not a handful of Romanian gypsies in Hyde Park.

I never stated that I wanted unlimited immigration. I simply stated that most of those coming were likely to be working.

All well and good if they are working and can continue to work.....the problems arise when a time comes where there is no work or very little work and they have no money and they don't want to go home or can't get home.....what do they do? How will they eat? where will they live? what doctor will they use? who will help them? who can afford to help them? ;)

Edited by winkie
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Me too. Sadly there seem to be more black Big Issue sellers around, maybe as a result of this last recession.

I've met a few Bulgarians and Rumanians here over the last couple of years. Generally they are either studying (and working part-time) or working on the black - seems to be a large black economy all over London from all nationalities. But there are also shop owners - go to Cricklewood and you can see a few.

I've seen the reports on the Roma family down marble Arch, but they are not indicative of the overall Rumanian population it seems. I worked in Madrid a few years back, when over a quarter of a million Rumanians settled in the city. Again there were a couple of pickpocket gangs that also turned up, but the overwhelming majority of that population settled down to work and behave in a law abiding way.

There really is no need for this scare-mongering. You're going to get far more damage from the banks, the politicians and the establishment.

Great post.

Classic divide and rule tactics by the media to set working people against each other through scaremongering and lazy stereotyping, to distract attention from the real villains. Sadly, it works.

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I had some jobs working in fields harvesting stuff when I was younger, there was always enough staff, the work was bloody tough going though but the money wasn't bad really.I have to admit though that quite a few of the workers were people claiming benefits- I recall a couple of police raids where workers would try and run away over the fields so they wouldnt get caught (difficult to run in wellies haha)- I had nothing to hide so other than losing 10 minutes of my time I was un-affected (piece rate)

The locals only stopped doing the work when the large numbers of migrant workers came. It was all organised with the immigrants living on site (in caravans) and being charged rent out of their wages. Although not impossible it was much more difficult for locals to get their foot in the door, and you would be surrounded all day by people speaking a different language- this was enough to put most Local people off.

I thought I'd say my piece on this subject because I'm one of the people that have actually done this type of work and have first hand experience of the situation (in my area anyway)

I spent a couple of school term times each year spud picking, going back about thirty years ago, with my Mum, sisters, aunties, cousins and friends etc, all local workers and seemed to work fairly hard as far as I can remember, cash in hand. I was about 10-13 years old sort of age, started with a half strip, then a three quarter strip, tried a full strip of spuds but was too much for me so kept with a three quarter, all pro-rata payments i think. The tractor would plough up and down and i can remember it being a bit of a slog, but was good fun as a youngster as I was getting paid.

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Believed it or not I do not read the mail, otherwise I would be obsessed with gypsies like Harry Monk.

Unfortunately the work ethic is lower amongst our youth than immigrants. A plumber I know told me how hard it is to get Brits to start in the trade, many who object to getting their clothes dirty. The East Europeans just get down to it and turn up on time.

Admittedly my earlier comment that aroused shots from both sides was probably an overreaction to Harry Monk's rather unpleasant post. Plenty of Brits are hardworking, but there is an element that isn't and money alone will not change behaviour.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that East European countries also have a non-hardworking element, like we have here in Britain?

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Just out of curiosity, do you think that East European countries also have a non-hardworking element, like we have here in Britain?

Quite possibly, but am not coming from a position of much knowledge. Unsurprisingly those who choose to come here are often more enterprising.

I also suspect that those states have less well developed welfare states than us, so not working can mean not eating or being homeless, so a life on benefits is not an option.

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Admittedly my earlier comment that aroused shots from both sides was probably an overreaction to Harry Monk's rather unpleasant post.

II don't think it is unpleasant to say that we don't need any more people, in fact what we need is fewer people. This might, for example, push house prices downwards.

It has always baffled me that the Left are and have always been the most vocal supporters of immigration, even though the sole purpose of immigration is to drive down the wages of the indigenous population for the benefit of the moneyed classes. I would recommend John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" to Mr Ah so.

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II don't think it is unpleasant to say that we don't need any more people, in fact what we need is fewer people. This might, for example, push house prices downwards.

It has always baffled me that the Left are and have always been the most vocal supporters of immigration, even though the sole purpose of immigration is to drive down the wages of the indigenous population for the benefit of the moneyed classes. I would recommend John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" to Mr Ah so.

That was not the bit that was unpleasant.

I read the Grapes of wrath in 1989, but thanks for the tip.

Evidence shows that immigration does not have a significant effect on indigenous unemployment. The numbers in employment is now higher than it has ever been. The numbers unemployed have been fairly static, although you do need to factor in the deep recession we have had. By and large, willing to work immigrants create work.

Even back in the early 90s when I worked as a waiter there was barely a Brit to be seen, despite the wages being reasonable and the country being in recession.

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Evidence shows that immigration does not have a significant effect on indigenous unemployment.

Oh, come on, don't be silly, of course it does, that's the whole point of it.

I could give you a thousand examples from my own everyday experience, but what's the point? If you can't already see what's been going on around you for the last ten years, then why would you listen to me?

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Oh, come on, don't be silly, of course it does, that's the whole point of it.

I could give you a thousand examples from my own everyday experience, but what's the point? If you can't already see what's been going on around you for the last ten years, then why would you listen to me?

Yes, it would be silly of me to maintain that immigration has no negative impact on the indigenous workforce. However, it is not the whole story - the huge growth in the number in employment is evidence of that. The reality lies somewhere in between the two viewpoints. Exactly where is the debatable point.

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  • 434 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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