Better A Warm Illusion

[Ologhai Jones]

BBC website: Near-death experiences are 'electrical surge in dying brain'.

Here's one of the reader comments:

My 5yr old daughter realised recently that not only was she going to die, but that mummy and daddy were as well. So much fear in one so young.

I told her that it was ok as I would wait for her in the afterlife, under a tree on the top of a hill overlooking the countryside.

Sometimes it is better to leave a warm illusion rather than a cold hard truth.

Science could probably leave this one alone.

I don't see any evidence that this parent will be waiting under a tree on the top of a hill for their daughter, but... it must be hard not to say something along these lines when a five-year-old comes face to face for the first time with death.

What would you have told her?

[Nuggets Mahoney]

BBC website: Near-death experiences are 'electrical surge in dying brain'.

Here's one of the reader comments:

I don't see any evidence that this parent will be waiting under a tree on the top of a hill for their daughter, but... it must be hard not to say something along these lines when a five-year-old comes face to face for the first time with death.

What would you have told her?

I would have told her we don't know what happens and it's a wonderful mystery.

There's so much unwarranted certainty in this world there's no need to add to it afaic.

As for NDEs, I have no faith in an afterlife and don't particularly give a toss one way or another if there is a non material element to human consciousness. However, the last gasp of a dying brain explanation has been around for donkeys years and wouldn't account for people who described what was going on around them, including non generic stuff they wouldn't have picked up from watching ER, whilst they had flat EEGs.

I'm not sure what the researchers involved in the linked study think it adds in the way of answers to the issue.

[chronyx]

I would have told her we don't know what happens and it's a wonderful mystery.

There's so much unwarranted certainty in this world there's no need to add to it afaic.

As for NDEs, I have no faith in an afterlife and don't particularly give a toss one way or another if there is a non material element to human consciousness. However, the last gasp of a dying brain explanation has been around for donkeys years and wouldn't account for people who described what was going on around them, including non generic stuff they wouldn't have picked up from watching ER, whilst they had flat EEGs.

I'm not sure what the researchers involved in the linked study think it adds in the way of answers to issue.

I'm with the guy (Comedian? ) who suggested leaving a load of cash on top of a cabinet, out of sight from normal room occupants and seeing if this OBE lot see it...

[Nuggets Mahoney]

I'm with the guy (Comedian? ) who suggested leaving a load of cash on top of a cabinet, out of sight from normal room occupants and seeing if this OBE lot see it...

There is actually a study trying something along those lines...

wiki: Dr Sam Parnia

Since September 2008 Parnia has been part of the AWARE study (AWAreness during REsuscitation),[9] a study launched by the Human Consciousness Project, an international collaboration of scientists, physicians and nurses studying patients who survived cardiac arrest and reported a near-death experience (NDE).

Twenty-five participating hospitals across Europe and North America[10] examine reports of patients after their clinical death, several of whom are expected to have an out-of-body experience (OBE) with physical perceptions of their surroundings. A major objective of the AWARE study is to test whether the perceptions reported by these patients can be verified. One method involves a visual target being placed near the ceiling where it can only be seen by someone reading it from above; patients who report OBEs are then asked to describe it

[Guest eight]

There is actually a study trying something along those lines...

wiki: Dr Sam Parnia

I'd suggest placing a placard on top of a wardrobe saying something along the lines of "Haha, you're like so dead".

[Nuggets Mahoney]

I'd suggest placing a placard on top of a wardrobe saying something along the lines of "Haha, you're like so dead".

fwiw not all NDEs are cuddly, squishy experiences and some folk report having a f***ing terrible experience.

There's one common element of NDEs which interests me as a concept, regardless of whether an NDE is entirely illusory or not, and that's the 'Life Review' part.

You relive your entire life in an instant but experience it, not from your own perspective, but from that of everyone you've interacted with. Every little bit of joy and hurt you've inflicted on other people, right down to the smallest act, comes right back at you.

Can't say I'm looking forward to my dying brain serving that one up to me as its final act.

[Guest eight]

You relive your entire life in an instant but experience it, not from your own perspective, but from that of everyone you've interacted with. Every little bit of joy and hurt you've inflicted on other people, right down to the smallest act, comes right back at you.

Sounds a little bit religious to me.

I've been having some pretty iffy dreams/nightmares recently, weird enough to have me pondering what it all might mean. I'm pretty sure I'm not dying (famous last words, hopefully not literally!) but I wouldn't be surprised at anything the brain can conjure up in moments of extreme stress.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

Sounds a little bit religious to me.

It is possible that NDEs are where some religious beliefs came from in the first place.

In which case it'd be the other way round and religions sound a bit NDEish.

[LC1]

I would have told her we don't know what happens and it's a wonderful mystery.

Absolutely this.

Science is still a long way off from proving that there is nothing after death, in my opinion.

I recall a fascinating book by scientist Lyall Watson, called The Romeo Error, in which he discusses a wide range of scientific studies that relate to life/death/dying (although now over three decades old) that shows how death is far from something that can be pinpointed in time, and that it's very difficult to show that there isn't something like the soul that somehow exists beyond the physical body, and that this would in fact help explain a few things (such as OBEs etc)...

The Romeo Error

[LC1]

You relive your entire life in an instant but experience it, not from your own perspective, but from that of everyone you've interacted with. Every little bit of joy and hurt you've inflicted on other people, right down to the smallest act, comes right back at you.

I've heard about NDEs and seeing 'your life flash before your eyes', obviously, but I've not heard of that aspect before... What makes you think this is very common, seeing it from other peoples' perspective?

[Nuggets Mahoney]

I've heard about NDEs and seeing 'your life flash before your eyes', obviously, but I've not heard of that aspect before... What makes you think this is very common, seeing it from other peoples' perspective?

It's in the published research literature. Wikipedia has a summary...

wiki: Life Review

[Riedquat]

Absolutely this.

Science is still a long way off from proving that there is nothing after death, in my opinion.

More to the point nothing really comes anywhere near giving any sensible reason to think that there is anything.

[LC1]

More to the point nothing really comes anywhere near giving any sensible reason to think that there is anything.

That's some deep red pill/blue pill sh!t right there

[LC1]

It's in the published research literature. Wikipedia has a summary...

wiki: Life Review

Interesting, thanks for the link.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

That's some deep red pill/blue pill sh!t right there

Or a nice warm cuppa from Russell's teapot

Is it up to 'science' to disprove life after death?

Or for those who believe in life after death to prove it?

answer b. afaic

[Guest eight]

It's in the published research literature. Wikipedia has a summary...

wiki: Life Review

I nearly died once. I never got to the proper lights out stage but I can remember being aware of the possibility to "let go" and what that would mean. It wasn't scary or anything like that. In fact I've been somewhat blase about dying ever since.

[LC1]

Or a nice warm cuppa from Russell's teapot

Is it up to 'science' to disprove life after death?

Or for those who believe in life after death to prove it?

answer b. afaic

I totally get the whole burden of proof idea. But I think that most people who accept the possibility of some form of life after death don't feel a pressing need to 'prove' this to anyone, it's more of a feeling, or an openness to possibilities. But some aspects of science, or those who profess to be scientists, seem to feel the need to 'prove' that things such as NDEs are simply the last flicker of brain activity in the last moments of life, and nothing more, case closed.

So I would say c, why try to prove it either way, we'll all find out in the end. Just don't dismiss the possibility out of hand...

[LC1]

I nearly died once. I never got to the proper lights out stage but I can remember being aware of the possibility to "let go" and what that would mean. It wasn't scary or anything like that. In fact I've been somewhat blase about dying ever since.

Wow. Stay away from the light!

[Nuggets Mahoney]

I nearly died once. I never got to the proper lights out stage but I can remember being aware of the possibility to "let go" and what that would mean. It wasn't scary or anything like that. In fact I've been somewhat blase about dying ever since.

That's a couple of ticks on the NDE checklist.

Me, I've never had an NDE, haven't seen a UFO, or any ghosts. I'm a bit jealous, aside from the nearly dying part.

I did experience sleep paralysis a couple of times in my 20s, woke up in the middle of a dream, thinking there was something toothy and malevolent preparing to pounce on me from out of the shadows, whilst I was lying there completely unable to move. That was no fun, no fun at all.

[Guest eight]

That's a couple of ticks on the NDE checklist.

Me, I've never had an NDE, haven't seen a UFO, or any ghosts. I'm a bit jealous, aside from the nearly dying part.

I did experience sleep paralysis a couple of times in my 20s, woke up in the middle of a dream, thinking there was something toothy and malevolent preparing to pounce on me from out of the shadows, whilst I was lying there completely unable to move. That was no fun, no fun at all.

I don't "believe" in UFO's or ghosts either, but I've experienced both of them. Our house also has a definitely bona fide but very very crap poltergeist thing going on - about on a par, in terror terms, with the Poltergiest sketch off Newman and Baddiel actually.

My daughter suffered from night terrors at one time - I can easily see how they would have been confused with demonic possession in more superstitious times.

[winkie]

Many things don't require any proof at all......instinct is all that is needed.

[gilf]

That's a couple of ticks on the NDE checklist.

Me, I've never had an NDE, haven't seen a UFO, or any ghosts. I'm a bit jealous, aside from the nearly dying part.

I did experience sleep paralysis a couple of times in my 20s, woke up in the middle of a dream, thinking there was something toothy and malevolent preparing to pounce on me from out of the shadows, whilst I was lying there completely unable to move. That was no fun, no fun at all.

Had an NDE, only way I can describe it was that I was aware of every single atom in my body simultaneously, no tunnels, no flying above the body etc. I was in hospital after an accident, won't bore you with the details but was touch and go for a short while.

Seen a ghost, was with a few others who saw it too, a figure crossing the road in front of us, looking back when we have passed no sign whatsoever. I'm convinced ghosts exist, what they are is a completely different matter, although I suspect some quick of the universe getting replayed rather than something from "the other side" or what would traditionally be described as supernatural.

Never seen a UFO, I'd imagine though it's something similar to my feelings on ghosts, people seeing them are seeing something real and vivid, although not little green men in space ships, equally not the benign explanations cooked up by the government (although some will be).

Also had sleep paralysis, it is indeed a very very eery experience, definitely in my opinion the source of most abduction reports. Had it twice, once a very short episode but the other went on for some considerable time. I was at my then girlfriends and remember clearly not being able to move, a strong presence of somebody in the room (it was me obviously but my brain wasn't used to hearing and feeling my body in that way) and a total inability to call out to my GF in the room next door even though I really wanted to.

[StainlessSteelCat]

What would you have told her?

Everything, and everyone, has their time. Make the best of today and tread lightly on the earth and others as no-one knows for sure what will happen tomorrow (or after death). Beware of those with certainty.

I have had a couple of nearish death experiences. None of the fancy lightshow - I wasn't that close to death. But I was at peace with the idea and would have gone. Thankfully, I didn't have to. But it does mean I'm not afraid of death. Equally, I'm not going to do anything stupid to hasten either.

[Big Orange]

Seen a ghost, was with a few others who saw it too, a figure crossing the road in front of us, looking back when we have passed no sign whatsoever. I'm convinced ghosts exist, what they are is a completely different matter, although I suspect some quick of the universe getting replayed rather than something from "the other side" or what would traditionally be described as supernatural.

The ghosts of people and animals could be vivid energy imprints left in the fabric of space/time, animated quantum fossils really. Ghosts travel through walls and other barriers because they're the animated imprints of dead people going along routes built over in the decades/centuries since they lived.

[SuperChimp]

The ghosts of people and animals could be vivid energy imprints left in the fabric of space/time

What energy is this?