Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
wish I could afford one

Leaving The Uk For Sunnier Climes

Recommended Posts

Until 2007 I was like most of the masses - I went to work and then proceeded to spend pretty much all of what I earned at work into the economy. I was a good citizen. The only real (and fortunate) difference was that I shunned debt which admittedly did hold me back in the competition to have the most tat. This all took place in London where I rented and couldn't even dream of buying (thus my HPC name) a home for my family.

In 2007 that all changed when I woke up to what was really going on. I was working for others and not for myself. I started reading heavily on relevant topics and even considered getting professional help (thank goodness I didn't). In the end I came up with 6 words to define my plan - Save Hard, Invest Wisely, Retire Early. In a little more detail:

- Save Hard. To save anything you must spend less than you earn. A concept many people just don't seem to grasp. Over the years by doing everything I can to both earn more and spend less I have taken this to somewhat of an extreme with a current savings rate of 60% of gross earnings. Not a good citizen from a GDP perspective but it's helped me no end both financially and emotionally.

- Those savings then need to be invested wisely. IMHO the vast majority of the Financial Services Sector just prays on those that are unknowledgeable. I am yet to meet one who doesn't have their well being put ahead of mine. "Where are all the customers yachts" has to be one of the best book titles I've ever come across. I've gone completely DIY with a strategy based around taking whatever the market offers (no active fund management for me) while at the same time doing everything within my power to minimise expenses and taxes. This doesn't result in Madoff returns but since 2007 (so including a large portion of the GFC) this has enabled me to gain a nominal compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 6.8% per annum and a real (inflation adjusted) CAGR of 3.3%. None of that has had to come from preying on those seeking shelter for their family.

- Retire Early. The above 2 points have enabled me to amass 72% of the wealth I'll need to retire as I write this post.

That's the background. Now the point of this post. I now find myself in the position where if I wanted to I could either buy somewhere outright (but would probably use a 10 year mortgage plus a very healthy deposit for tax efficiency reasons). The problem I have is that I know how much blood, sweat and tears were required to amass that wealth. I now just can't bring myself to buy for a couple of reasons:

1. I have a problem with overpaying to likely provide for somebody elses retirement.

2. I am also very conscious of Maslow's Hierachy of Needs. I can't bring myself to use a large portion of my hard earned wealth to only move myself off the first rung which is physiological needs such as food, water, shelter and warmth.

I am now forecasting I will have the funds for a full "retirement" in 3 years when I'll be 44. At current prices I won't be buying in the South East. I am considering other "fairer valued" regions in the UK as I won't need to consider work options so much but to be honest I am also finding those areas over priced. I love this country, it pains me to say it (and almost feel like a traitor), but in 2016 because I won't have the work problem I really am starting to consider picking up my bat & ball and leaving this Isle to it's market manipulation and house price rises are good mentality. My top location at this point is Malta as it really does seem to offer everything I need to move up the Hierachy. This is my full musings on why Malta can offer more than the UK for any who are interested.

Discuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I have a problem with overpaying to likely provide for somebody elses retirement.

Discuss.

I think this attitude is unhealthy. At the end of the day I would decide whether a house represents fair value or not. If it does then I will buy it, if it doesn't I won't and I don't give a toss what the recipient does with the money, which is anyway completely out of my control (and therefore not worth bothering about). Do you resent handling over money to anyone for anything on the basis of what they might do with it ?

As regards moving, yes, it could be a good idea. I would dip my toe in the water first though by maybe renting a place over there for a few months to find out what it is like first. Sometimes moving to a new place can be a great success and sometimes it can be a failure, a bit like changing jobs. The more things you can take to mitigate the risk before incurring considerable expense in advance the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will share my situation as it is not too different. I retired effectively end 2006. I had a bad feeling things were going to go Pete Tong. I had earned a decent amount by going on the 'consulting' treadmill in the previous 7 years, saved as maniacally as I could for 15 years and was mortgage free with a decent savings pot. Sold up Oct 2006 and added the house proceeds to my pot. Move out to the country onto a rented small holding and have been here ever since. 'Retired' at 46. Trade my own funds for a living and cut grass.

Potentially risky and made loads of mistakes but decided that having saved a certain amount, it is best to treat it all as an endowment to see how you can add extra returns to one's entire worth....not just trading a small proportion of it and claiming outstanding success. 10% on 100% of one's entire worth is far better that 25% on 10% of one's worth. That is my mantra.

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like our attitudes are not to far apart.

On the "made loads of mistakes" front. I've made plenty myself also. The difference between making them myself and a professional making them on my behalf is that I've learnt something which I can use going forward in the process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this attitude is unhealthy. At the end of the day I would decide whether a house represents fair value or not. If it does then I will buy it, if it doesn't I won't and I don't give a toss what the recipient does with the money, which is anyway completely out of my control (and therefore not worth bothering about). Do you resent handling over money to anyone for anything on the basis of what they might do with it ?

...

Very good point. That sentence really does sound very ranty and immature when I read it again. TBH it really is about the first half of the sentence - I have a problem with overpaying. I've been tracking Value and Affordability for a long time now. I'm using Value as a buy trigger where the rest of the world seems to be using Affordability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe my leaving will help a little. Rental prices down because of a shift in the supply and demand dynamic. :)

Nah, I'm sure ex-Gurkhas, Bangladeshis and Romanians will be queueing up to take your place. ;)

Dare we say it yet, relentless immigration is the problem? The lack of jobs, such a shortage of housing that Councils have to charter heat-seeking helicopters to determine how many people are living in sheds in Slough, six to a shed... of course anyone who only pays £10 a week to live in a shed can work for far less than a British national...

The only answer, as I see it, is to vote UKIP at the upcoming elections and sort out the immigration problem for once and for all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've felt the same and done the same thing. Quit my job and sold my house last year. Now I day trade my equity to earn a living and have just moved to Berlin. You can buy a central 1bed flat here for 195k and I mean totally central.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've felt the same and done the same thing. Quit my job and sold my house last year. Now I day trade my equity to earn a living and have just moved to Berlin. You can buy a central 1bed flat here for 195k and I mean totally central.

Did you look anywhere else in Europe or do you have ties to Berlin? If you did the former would you be willing to share where else you assessed as a possible new home?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Discuss.

Your post mirrors my thoughts in 2012 and is why I suggested they added a Living Overseas section on here:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showforum=72&prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all&st=0

This might be of interest re pensions. Not all places get inflation increases in your UK state pension

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/social-security-agreements/list-of-countries/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you look anywhere else in Europe or do you have ties to Berlin? If you did the former would you be willing to share where else you assessed as a possible new home?

I had Berlin in mind due to hsving lived in Franfurt and loved Germany, which made assessment brief. Had to be EU as cant be bothered with visas etc and I basically checked out rent prices in Spain, Central and Eastern Europe. Berlin seems good value, just as cheap as more eastern cities and its a great place to live.

I pay 95 euros a week for a great big room in a shared house. It's nice to live with other people, especially German language speakers as I'm here alone and only speak the language a little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your post mirrors my thoughts in 2012 and is why I suggested they added a Living Overseas section on here:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showforum=72&prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all&st=0

This might be of interest re pensions. Not all places get inflation increases in your UK state pension

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/social-security-agreements/list-of-countries/

Hi Democorruptcy

I didn't even know that sub-forum existed and I've been on here since 2007. Thanks for highlighting. Last time we had a bit of banter I had the impression you were in the UK though. Have you moved now?

Malta as it's part of the EU so it gets the uplift. TBH though in my retirement calculations I'm assuming I won't get a State Pension. Anything then is upside and ensures I won't be disappointed as it is continually watered down in the decades until I can get access to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am now forecasting I will have the funds for a full "retirement" in 3 years when I'll be 44. At current prices I won't be buying in the South East. I am considering other "fairer valued" regions in the UK as I won't need to consider work options so much but to be honest I am also finding those areas over priced. I love this country, it pains me to say it (and almost feel like a traitor), but in 2016 because I won't have the work problem I really am starting to consider picking up my bat & ball and leaving this Isle to it's market manipulation and house price rises are good mentality. My top location at this point is Malta as it really does seem to offer everything I need to move up the Hierachy. This is my full musings on why Malta can offer more than the UK for any who are interested.

Discuss.

Oh yes, Malta is a good place to retire. What is the monthly amount you think will be needed to retire there ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had Berlin in mind due to hsving lived in Franfurt and loved Germany, which made assessment brief. Had to be EU as cant be bothered with visas etc and I basically checked out rent prices in Spain, Central and Eastern Europe. Berlin seems good value, just as cheap as more eastern cities and its a great place to live.

I pay 95 euros a week for a great big room in a shared house. It's nice to live with other people, especially German language speakers as I'm here alone and only speak the language a little.

Can you tell us how much do one needs per month to live in Berlin ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had Berlin in mind due to hsving lived in Franfurt and loved Germany, which made assessment brief. Had to be EU as cant be bothered with visas etc and I basically checked out rent prices in Spain, Central and Eastern Europe. Berlin seems good value, just as cheap as more eastern cities and its a great place to live.

I pay 95 euros a week for a great big room in a shared house. It's nice to live with other people, especially German language speakers as I'm here alone and only speak the language a little.

Thanks for sharing. I've been lucky enough to spend some time in Germany for work. It's been a very positive experience and I've made some friends but I don't think it's me from a living permanently perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh yes, Malta is a good place to retire. What is the monthly amount you think will be needed to retire there ?

Have you spent time there? I'd be really interested in your thoughts on why you think it's a good place.

I've sort of made it a policy of never using absolute amounts in any of my posts or on my site. My rationale is that everybody is different with different needs to satisfy and so will need different amounts. I thought that if absolute numbers came into the discussion it might just start a p**sing contest and alienate a whole pile of potential contributors who could add value. I therefore only every use %'s when I talk about progress to retirement, savings rates etc. What I will say though is the amount is greater than I currently live on in London.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Democorruptcy

I didn't even know that sub-forum existed and I've been on here since 2007. Thanks for highlighting. Last time we had a bit of banter I had the impression you were in the UK though. Have you moved now?

Malta as it's part of the EU so it gets the uplift. TBH though in my retirement calculations I'm assuming I won't get a State Pension. Anything then is upside and ensures I won't be disappointed as it is continually watered down in the decades until I can get access to it.

I wondered if you knew about that section so thought it might be worth a mention.

I am still in the UK and have not bought a house so I'm liquid and free. I haven't paid into the state pension since 2004. I have 28 years and until last Autumn had 14/15 of the then 30 qualifying years. Osborne knocked me down to 4/5 when he upped the qualifying years to 35.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wondered if you knew about that section so thought it might be worth a mention.

I am still in the UK and have not bought a house so I'm liquid and free. I haven't paid into the state pension since 2004. I have 28 years and until last Autumn had 14/15 of the then 30 qualifying years. Osborne knocked me down to 4/5 when he upped the qualifying years to 35.

Have you thought about sunnier climes given how liquid you are or are you content with the UK? Just thinking you could try somewhere, rent for while and if it doesn't work out move back to the UK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you tell us how much do one needs per month to live in Berlin ?

Not much, 400 euros per month for rent and all bills in shared accommodation. Then just food etc, Germany is full of Aldi, Lidl, Netto etc so food is cheap like the uk. Public transport also cheap so you could comfortably live on 800 euros per month and keep building that equity.

I have friends that rent in central London. One pays £1500 per month on a studio. Madness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not much, 400 euros per month for rent and all bills in shared accommodation. Then just food etc, Germany is full of Aldi, Lidl, Netto etc so food is cheap like the uk. Public transport also cheap so you could comfortably live on 800 euros per month and keep building that equity.

I have friends that rent in central London. One pays £1500 per month on a studio. Madness.

Not bad that's only £8,300 per annum at current exchange rates. That's very much in the early retirement extreme category. At a 4% SWR you only would need assets of £200k or so to achieve that. That would be very achievable for a lot of the UK population if they only stopped worshipping houses, debt and consumerism.

The only issue is that idc you may want to switch that from shared living to something a bit more permanent. But as you say live cheap and keep building equity for that type of option in the future.

edit: grammer

Edited by wish I could afford one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not bad that's only £8,300 per annum at current exchange rates. That very much in the early retirement extreme category. At a 4% SWR you only would need assets of £200k or so to achieve that. That's would be very achievable for a lot of the UK population if they only stopped worshipping houses, debt and consumerism.

The only issue is that idc you may want to switch that from shared living to something a bit more permanent. But as you say live cheap and keep building equity for that type of option in the future.

Save 300,000 euros and buy a nice central flat that would be millions in London.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-38315203.html

All yours once the tenants leave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you thought about sunnier climes given how liquid you are or are you content with the UK? Just thinking you could try somewhere, rent for while and if it doesn't work out move back to the UK.

PM sent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. Although people say "you've retired early", you've built up knowledge that will add value well into other people's typical retirement. What is the worth of all that?

Exactly. I've been at it now for 6 years. I still sometimes think I've built up little knowledge on the subject and what I talk about is really simple. Then I drop a basic comment in a conversation which results in a feeling that what I now know about personal finance has huge value that will help me for many years. For example at a very basic level I really am surprised at how many people really have no idea how the Miracle of Compound Interest works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Save 300,000 euros and buy a nice central flat that would be millions in London.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-38315203.html

All yours once the tenants leave.

Sounds like a plan. Personally I'll probably end up a little out of the "city" wherever I end up but of course it takes all types. This is because I'd really like to try a little self sufficiency. The primary reason is just the taste of home grown food really is a step above anything I've ever bought. If I save some money doing it then all the better. To do it I think I'll need a bit of outdoor space. Something akin to an allotment should be sufficient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you spent time there? I'd be really interested in your thoughts on why you think it's a good place.

I've sort of made it a policy of never using absolute amounts in any of my posts or on my site. My rationale is that everybody is different with different needs to satisfy and so will need different amounts. I thought that if absolute numbers came into the discussion it might just start a p**sing contest and alienate a whole pile of potential contributors who could add value. I therefore only every use %'s when I talk about progress to retirement, savings rates etc. What I will say though is the amount is greater than I currently live on in London.

No - I looked at Malta based on numbers a few years ago.

I had a looked at various low tax jurisdiction in the Europe and Malta was top of the list (and Cyprus, which is now a gone case). It also includes the (english) language and cost of living. It is not as efficient as Western europe though and the business culture there is rather Mediterranean but obviously it is no where as bad as Greece.

Estonia is the nicer of the 3-ia (Estoia, Lithuania and Latvia) but still suffer from ethnic tensions between the Russian and the Estonian so there is a bit of a risk there. Western Europe taxes are too high for early retirement (if one is in the 60+ and needs healthcare, then it may be worthwhile to be in Western europe).

My bad for being lazy about the cost of living. I google around and it looks like it is going to cost around e1500 - e2000 per month to live reasonably (rent + utilities + housing etc = eur1000; others = another eur 1000). So that is really around £20000 pa and with an interest rate of 3% max, you will need around £667k to live on interest. Not easily done though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:   206 members have voted

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal

    Please sign in or register to vote in this poll. View topic


×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.