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chris25

Is "love" Becoming Extinct?

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Increasingly on this site, and across many internet websites there is a hostile stance towards relationships and women, of which I have joined in extensively. So I wanted to discuss about the breakdown of relationships.

Now we know marriage rates are decreasing YOY:

_44515813_marriage_gr203.gif

We also know statistically that the more sexual partners a woman has before marriage, the more likely that marriage is to breakdown:

Heritage.jpg

Supposedly by the age of 21, this generation of young women on average have had 9 sexual partners (link here)

So statistically, if they get married their chance of divorce is extremely high.

But on an anecdotal level, as someone who has been searching for a long term relationship for nearly a decade by now I am shocked at women's expectations and behaviour (I'm talking about women in their 20's). Now I don't think men are whiter than white, in actual fact I know a lot of men who are pricks, so I would also value any women's opinion on this as well. So perhaps this is an increasing phenomenon with men, but I also know that a lot of men are totally terrified by women's expectations and thus reject them and choose to live a lifestyle without them (in many cases this is me, not because I want to but because I haven't come across someone I feel I can settle down with).

But when I actually look at my generation I see very few people hooked up in long term relationships, people drift in and out of relationships all the time, whereas the older generation often stuck with their childhood sweetheart until the very end.

So what is the phenomenon down to? The sexual revolution? The complexity of life? Feminism? HPI? TV? And has anyone else noticed this?

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young women still dream of the ideal wedding.

Men have given up dreaming.

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Increasingly on this site, and across many internet websites there is a hostile stance towards relationships and women, of which I have joined in extensively. So I wanted to discuss about the breakdown of relationships.

Now we know marriage rates are decreasing YOY:

_44515813_marriage_gr203.gif

We also know statistically that the more sexual partners a woman has before marriage, the more likely that marriage is to breakdown:

Heritage.jpg

Supposedly by the age of 21, this generation of young women on average have had 9 sexual partners (link here)

So statistically, if they get married their chance of divorce is extremely high.

But on an anecdotal level, as someone who has been searching for a long term relationship for nearly a decade by now I am shocked at women's expectations and behaviour (I'm talking about women in their 20's). Now I don't think men are whiter than white, in actual fact I know a lot of men who are pricks, so I would also value any women's opinion on this as well. So perhaps this is an increasing phenomenon with men, but I also know that a lot of men are totally terrified by women's expectations and thus reject them and choose to live a lifestyle without them (in many cases this is me, not because I want to but because I haven't come across someone I feel I can settle down with).

But when I actually look at my generation I see very few people hooked up in long term relationships, people drift in and out of relationships all the time, whereas the older generation often stuck with their childhood sweetheart until the very end.

So what is the phenomenon down to? The sexual revolution? The complexity of life? Feminism? HPI? TV? And has anyone else noticed this?

Imho opinion I think we get fed a diet of what a happy lifestyle is by the media . . . and when people cant stomach the diet they find it far to easy to look for the tastier option . . which isnt always the healthy option ! Ive not had my dinner yet so forgive me . . .

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I guess it's a result of equality policy in the workplace + increasing welfare payments.

Women are less dependent on men.

I take it the effect of contraception reached its peak a long time ago.

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If you were to base your opinion on divorce stats, it looks like it's women who seem to have more of a problem making a commitment than men.

As I recall, something like 70% of divorces are initiated by the female partner.

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If you were to base your opinion on divorce stats, it looks like it's women who seem to have more of a problem making a commitment than men.

As I recall, something like 70% of divorces are initiated by the female partner.

Only because the law is so heavily in their favour. By divorcing they know they will get the house, the maintenance and the kids.

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I think it's because, overall, men haven't really changed. Most men, deep down, still want to be the provider and to take care of the 'wife' who shall bear the fruits of his loins. OK, you still get the odd 'Jack the Lad' but I do believe it's what most blokes still want (after all, we grew up in that environment). Western women though have changed radically. Financial independence and more rights than they've ever had before - suddenly the nuclear family is less important to them as it's no longer a requirement. An ex of mine was like this. She wanted a relationship so long as it didn't get in the way of her social life/hobbies/career. She's had quite a few partners since we split and none of them have lasted long. Once they realises what she's like they know they're just wasting their time.

There was a survey done a while back (I can't find it at the moment) that said more western men than ever before are marrying asian women because they are more like western women pre feminism. And it wasn't just 55 year old Fat Les buying a Tai bride it was men in their 20's and 30's.

Or it could be that everyone is so up themselves these days that no one can get on anymore...

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Only because the law is so heavily in their favour. By divorcing they know they will get the house, the maintenance and the kids.

My ex got the house (which has fallen in value by about £35,000 since, I got half the equity and we split up at the peak in 2007), now that I'm running my own company and paying myself £600 a month in salary (the rest comes as dividends) she gets only a third of the maintenance she had budgeted for, and I do see the children just as often. I agree though, that her main motivation for separation was the fact that child tax credits and child maintenance would pay the mortgage and bills.

Unfortunately, state benefits don't mow the lawn, paint the gable ends, unblock the drains etc, as a result of which the house has gone from being the prettiest little house on the street to looking like a crack den. And quite what she'll do in three years time when the kids hit 18 and her benefits stop, Lord only knows, but it's not really my problem.

But state benefits are the reason so many families break up, apparently when a child gets to 16, there's only a 50% chance of both parents being together.

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I think women haven't changed in what they want. Just as men want to have a family to support, women want a man to support them and their family. I think what's changed due to a more liberal society the media is their expectations.

My friend has a theory, and it goes something like this.

All girls grow up wanting to marry a handsome, successful high-status man.

As girls grow up, as long as they're average looking or better (or easy) they'll get themselves into a (sometimes brief) relationship with a handsome successful high-status man.

For some girls this will become their benchmark. They'll kid themselves that this briefest of relationships is what they deserve and that if they wait (and enjoy themselves in the mean time) they'll end up marrying a man like this.

The problem is the man in question briefly has lots of women and all but one of them won't marry him. Therefore for every girl who gets her fairytale ending there are another 50 who turn their noses up at anyone who doesn't match up to their benchmark and who will never be happy with someone who doesn't make the grade.

Love isn't becoming extinct, men and women both want to find someone to love, but expectations are unrealistically high.

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Increasingly on this site, and across many internet websites there is a hostile stance towards relationships and women, of which I have joined in extensively. So I wanted to discuss about the breakdown of relationships.

Now we know marriage rates are decreasing YOY:

_44515813_marriage_gr203.gif

We also know statistically that the more sexual partners a woman has before marriage, the more likely that marriage is to breakdown:

Heritage.jpg

Supposedly by the age of 21, this generation of young women on average have had 9 sexual partners (link here)

So statistically, if they get married their chance of divorce is extremely high.

But on an anecdotal level, as someone who has been searching for a long term relationship for nearly a decade by now I am shocked at women's expectations and behaviour (I'm talking about women in their 20's). Now I don't think men are whiter than white, in actual fact I know a lot of men who are pricks, so I would also value any women's opinion on this as well. So perhaps this is an increasing phenomenon with men, but I also know that a lot of men are totally terrified by women's expectations and thus reject them and choose to live a lifestyle without them (in many cases this is me, not because I want to but because I haven't come across someone I feel I can settle down with).

But when I actually look at my generation I see very few people hooked up in long term relationships, people drift in and out of relationships all the time, whereas the older generation often stuck with their childhood sweetheart until the very end.

So what is the phenomenon down to? The sexual revolution? The complexity of life? Feminism? HPI? TV? And has anyone else noticed this?

According to evolutionary psychology, (think of people as just clever chimps) there is a natural tendency amongst women toward hypergamy.

Female chimps want to mate with the alpha chimp. That is the programming women have got. Culture can moderate our natural tendencies. But culture has changed in such a way to encourage those natural tendencies. Apparently, in the USA,according to Kay Hymowitz's recent book, "Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys":

The data does not bode well for men. In 1970, men earned 60% of all college degrees. In 1980, the figure fell to 50%, by 2006 it was 43%. Women now surpass men in college degrees by almost three to two. Women's earnings grew 44% in real dollars from 1970 to 2007, compared with 6% growth for men. . . .

According to Stephanie Coontz in a New York Times op-ed: "For a woman seeking a satisfying relationship as well as a secure economic future, there has never been a better time to be or become highly educated." She then goes on to contradict herself by stating:

When the journalist Liza Mundy interviewed young women for her forthcoming book on female breadwinners, she found that most wanted a mate they could "look up to" or "admire"--and didn't think they could admire a man who was less educated than they were. During a talk I recently gave to a women's group in San Francisco, an audience member said, "I want him to respect what I know, but I also want him to know just a little more than me." One of my students once told me, "it's exciting to be a bit in awe of a guy."

In a culture of sexual equality or female dominance, women and men who aren't especially charming, brilliant or beautiful don't have much to offer each other.

Nearly all of my comment has been lifted from here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204795304577223342354850200.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion

Its a good read but you can find variations all over the internet by googling stuff like: hypergamy divorce marriage

I am middle aged and have been married for over 25 years, so...bear that in mind.

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I'd suggest expectations have changed and people have decided not to put up with flaws. Trouble is everyone has flaws, your going to get annoyed with each other etc.... Rather than getting on with it I think it's just become easier to dump and move on until the that person irritates rinse and repeat.

Everyone is looking for perfection that doesn't exist.

Although another reason why marriage looks less appealing is that it can be very expensive to do and then it's incredible expensive to get out of. If there is no bit of magic paper you can leave at a moments notice and it's finished.

And what do the stats say for men who've had multiple partners are they also likely to split up?

Is it the problem that the more you have the more easily bored you become?

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For some girls this will become their benchmark. They'll kid themselves that this briefest of relationships is what they deserve and that if they wait (and enjoy themselves in the mean time) they'll end up marrying a man like this.

Yep. The Clooneys of this world have ruined alot if women.

See this post from a well known 'game' blog on this phenomenon; as described from a woman's point of view:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/five-minutes-of-alpha-fifty-years-of-pining/

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Lust has not changed, the initial starting point on the road to love. Problem is the skills to develop a relationship into love are lacking thanks to soap myth, work is the most important than family, must own the latest tat.

I would say the the main reason if there is one for 'love' dying out is.....

No more partner dancing, a random quote somewhere stated 70% of relationships formed on the dance floor in the 1930-40's (maybe its BS). From my experience, I am excited to take my partner dancing, hell if there is a live band in the street I am up for it. Its social, its fun, and there is booze most of the time. Get pissed of with the wife plenty of other people to dance with ... which in itself stops everyone playing stupid mind games. And of cause if it all falls apart there are lots of women/men burning 300 calories an hour dancing at weekend events, I doubt it is all dancing :D.

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According to evolutionary psychology, (think of people as just clever chimps) there is a natural tendency amongst women toward hypergamy.

Female chimps want to mate with the alpha chimp. That is the programming women have got. Culture can moderate our natural tendencies. But culture has changed in such a way to encourage those natural tendencies. Apparently, in the USA,according to Kay Hymowitz's recent book, "Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys":

The data does not bode well for men. In 1970, men earned 60% of all college degrees. In 1980, the figure fell to 50%, by 2006 it was 43%. Women now surpass men in college degrees by almost three to two. Women's earnings grew 44% in real dollars from 1970 to 2007, compared with 6% growth for men. . . .

According to Stephanie Coontz in a New York Times op-ed: "For a woman seeking a satisfying relationship as well as a secure economic future, there has never been a better time to be or become highly educated." She then goes on to contradict herself by stating:

When the journalist Liza Mundy interviewed young women for her forthcoming book on female breadwinners, she found that most wanted a mate they could "look up to" or "admire"--and didn't think they could admire a man who was less educated than they were. During a talk I recently gave to a women's group in San Francisco, an audience member said, "I want him to respect what I know, but I also want him to know just a little more than me." One of my students once told me, "it's exciting to be a bit in awe of a guy."

In a culture of sexual equality or female dominance, women and men who aren't especially charming, brilliant or beautiful don't have much to offer each other.

Nearly all of my comment has been lifted from here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204795304577223342354850200.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion

Its a good read but you can find variations all over the internet by googling stuff like: hypergamy divorce marriage

I am middle aged and have been married for over 25 years, so...bear that in mind.

I suppose as men have become irrelevant females no longer have a need for them, therefore they totally dismiss the beta and follow their animal-instinct and go for the alpha, whom they will get a dopamine rush off and become addicted to the excitement and drama he provides.

But if this is the case did women ever love the beta in the first place? Or did they just depend upon their beta husband/provider for survival so "pretended" to love him?

Do women not love the beta (or feel considerably less attracted to him) because in the not-too distant past of hunter-gather age he was lacking the brute-force, dominance, bravery and other skills to hunt for food? It's probably right, we spent hundreds of thousands of years being hunter gatherers and only a couple of thousand being farmers. Farming and civilisation require betas to function, a hunter-gatherer society does not.

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I think women haven't changed in what they want. Just as men want to have a family to support, women want a man to support them and their family. I think what's changed due to a more liberal society the media is their expectations.

My friend has a theory, and it goes something like this.

All girls grow up wanting to marry a handsome, successful high-status man.

As girls grow up, as long as they're average looking or better (or easy) they'll get themselves into a (sometimes brief) relationship with a handsome successful high-status man.

For some girls this will become their benchmark. They'll kid themselves that this briefest of relationships is what they deserve and that if they wait (and enjoy themselves in the mean time) they'll end up marrying a man like this.

The problem is the man in question briefly has lots of women and all but one of them won't marry him. Therefore for every girl who gets her fairytale ending there are another 50 who turn their noses up at anyone who doesn't match up to their benchmark and who will never be happy with someone who doesn't make the grade.

Love isn't becoming extinct, men and women both want to find someone to love, but expectations are unrealistically high.

It is true.

I know at least a good handful of women like this. One is only a 4 (on a good day) yet she looks after herself very well. She has unbelievably high expectations and despite going on online dating a receiving at least 5 messages a day, she still bleats on Facebook that she cannot find the "right" person. Hell, if I got 5 messages a day on an online dating website I'd be loving life!

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My ex got the house (which has fallen in value by about £35,000 since, I got half the equity and we split up at the peak in 2007), now that I'm running my own company and paying myself £600 a month in salary (the rest comes as dividends) she gets only a third of the maintenance she had budgeted for, and I do see the children just as often. I agree though, that her main motivation for separation was the fact that child tax credits and child maintenance would pay the mortgage and bills.

Unfortunately, state benefits don't mow the lawn, paint the gable ends, unblock the drains etc, as a result of which the house has gone from being the prettiest little house on the street to looking like a crack den. And quite what she'll do in three years time when the kids hit 18 and her benefits stop, Lord only knows, but it's not really my problem.

But state benefits are the reason so many families break up, apparently when a child gets to 16, there's only a 50% chance of both parents being together.

So , are you telling that your wife divorced you because she thought her life would be better on benefits?

And you feel you treated your kids honestly? You buy them clothes, ipads, pay for their holidays? Right?

The problem with marriage breakdown is ever slightly more complicated, but if someone earns enough they are less inclined to have s**t in their life.

PS I'm a professional, I can more than enough pay my keep, but having a child (in marriage) led to my personal income falling by a third.

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But if this is the case did women ever love the beta in the first place? Or did they just depend upon their beta husband/provider for survival so "pretended" to love him?

Read more of the Heartiste blog for the answer, but I think in alot of cases betas are just seen for their utility value, and being a provider doesn't turn a woman on.

A very attractive friend of mine is seeing a bloke who is good to her but she's had a string of alphas in her younger days and flat out told me that basically she thinks she's dating down because he's not really sexy and wealthy. He helped her through a minor nervous breakdown, and seems like a nice guy, but she's dissapointed to be 'settling' and I doubt it will last.

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So , are you telling that your wife divorced you because she thought her life would be better on benefits?

Well, she only ever gave me two reasons for breaking up the family, "You haven't changed" and "you sometimes leave the kitchen cupboard doors open".

She didn't say "plus I'm having an affair with a bloke called Ian" but then I'd guessed that anyway.

But when I asked her "how can you possibly pay for it, just working three afternoon shifts a week?", she told me about the Tax Credits and how they would pay the mortgage.

Thank God I dumped the house on her in 2007, got the equity out and went back to living with my considerably more attractive ex-girlfriend. ;)

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Interestingly women's expectations can work against them in quite an unexpected way.

Another of my friends is a very good looking guy who these days is also comparatively wealthy and successful. He's always had success with women and has had lots of brief relationships. Now he's in his mid thirties, still single, and says that "all women are nutcases". From what I can deduce when he meets someone new they are torn between fancying him/wanting him and being scared that he's just another alpha male after one thing. They're really full-on and move really fast, try to get him to commit really quickly, try to pin him down because they assume he's going to be off looking for someone else in no time. As a result things fall apart.

The thing is my mate is a nice bloke really and I think he'd like to meet someone to have a proper relationship with, just not a mad possessive nutcase woman who doesn't trust him/

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I think guidance and good role models are lacking on both sides. Having lots of relationships seems to make people more cynical, yet the crap peddled by the media sets expectations sky high.

Plus in many cases, neither gender really needs the other any more. Women have more financial independence and get by with a decent support network of friends, and many blokes I know are happy enough with internet porn and their hobbies. An increasing number of people in their 30s I know have never had a relationship lasting longer than a few months.

Finally, it's easier than ever to bail, and keep on looking, on both sides. Religion, societal expectations and financial necessity no longer hold couples together - when the going gets tough (and it usually does at some point - even if you are still both very much in love). Plus with many of us being richer than a few generations back, there can be significant financial risks of pairing up too.

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Interestingly women's expectations can work against them in quite an unexpected way.

Another of my friends is a very good looking guy who these days is also comparatively wealthy and successful. He's always had success with women and has had lots of brief relationships. Now he's in his mid thirties, still single, and says that "all women are nutcases". From what I can deduce when he meets someone new they are torn between fancying him/wanting him and being scared that he's just another alpha male after one thing. They're really full-on and move really fast, try to get him to commit really quickly, try to pin him down because they assume he's going to be off looking for someone else in no time. As a result things fall apart.

The thing is my mate is a nice bloke really and I think he'd like to meet someone to have a proper relationship with, just not a mad possessive nutcase woman who doesn't trust him/

oh, and my husband is one year older than I am and drop dead handsome....

guess i'm just lucky and don't get me started on the baby:)

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No more partner dancing, a random quote somewhere stated 70% of relationships formed on the dance floor in the 1930-40's (maybe its BS). From my experience, I am excited to take my partner dancing, hell if there is a live band in the street I am up for it. Its social, its fun, and there is booze most of the time. Get pissed of with the wife plenty of other people to dance with ... which in itself stops everyone playing stupid mind games. And of cause if it all falls apart there are lots of women/men burning 300 calories an hour dancing at weekend events, I doubt it is all dancing :D.

Yeah, dancing with a partner is the thing - amazing way of connecting.

It goes from the philosophical level of becoming part of the cosmic pattern, down to the social switching of partners, down to the fact that he's got a hard on and she knows it.

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I suppose as men have become irrelevant females no longer have a need for them, therefore they totally dismiss the beta and follow their animal-instinct and go for the alpha, whom they will get a dopamine rush off and become addicted to the excitement and drama he provides.

But if this is the case did women ever love the beta in the first place? Or did they just depend upon their beta husband/provider for survival so "pretended" to love him?

Do women not love the beta (or feel considerably less attracted to him) because in the not-too distant past of hunter-gather age he was lacking the brute-force, dominance, bravery and other skills to hunt for food? It's probably right, we spent hundreds of thousands of years being hunter gatherers and only a couple of thousand being farmers. Farming and civilisation require betas to function, a hunter-gatherer society does not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love

Biological models of sex tend to view love as a mammalian drive, much like hunger or thirst.[17] Helen Fisher, a leading expert in the topic of love, divides the experience of love into three partly overlapping stages: lust, attraction, and attachment.

Women are attracted to alpha males, but the message bloggers like heartiste assert is that betamales can learn to act like alpha males and start a relationship by triggering lust by acting like an alpha and maintain that relationship by continuing to act like an alpha, meanwhile lust will develop into attraction and then to attachment.

Have you ever noticed how often women are baffled by the men their friends have fallen for?

The guy looks sooooooo beta. They don't get to see him being alpha when their friend is alone with him. They don't know how alpha he was when their friend first met him, or all those other times he was soooo alpha.

So of course women love betamales. The women who love betamales just don't think they are betamales.

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