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Bat Plans Rapid E-Cigarette Expansion Around World

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/31/uk-bat-results-idUKBRE96U0B120130731

British American Tobacco (BATS.L) said it would move rapidly to expand its presence in the electronic cigarette market around the world after launching its first product in Britain earlier this week.

The world's No.2 cigarette maker, whose premium brands include Kent, Dunhill, Lucky Strike and Pall Mall, launched online sales of 'Vype' on Monday, becoming the first major tobacco firm to offer e-cigarettes in Britain.

"We'll focus on the UK, but the e-cigarette business is moving quickly all over the world, and we want to make sure that we also move quickly, because we want to take a leading position," BAT director Kingsley Wheaton said on Wednesday, after the firm posted a 4 percent rise in first-half sales.

"I think we'll be following it (Vype) up with other opportunities around the world with a reasonable degree of speed," he said.

..

All the top tobacco companies including Lorillard (LO.N), Imperial Tobacco (IMT.L), Reynolds American (RAI.N) and Altria (MO.N) are now placing bets on e-smokes, which some analysts say may outsell conventional cigarettes in 10 years.

Looks like the big boys are coming to join the party.

If ecigs do have reduced health risks because of the fewer toxins it's hard to see how sales won't take off and people are just going to be smoking a pure drug.

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It makes perfect sense, get people addicted to the drug but without the major health damaging effects, the consumer lives longer to purchase your poison...kerching! If they can crack the social side of it, ie not being allowed to use E- Cigarettes in public spaces etc, they may have a winner.

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It makes perfect sense, get people addicted to the drug but without the major health damaging effects, the consumer lives longer to purchase your poison...kerching!

Just like coffee shops then

A poison without major health damaging effects doesn't sound like much of a poison to me

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Looks like the big boys are coming to join the party.

If ecigs do have reduced health risks because of the fewer toxins it's hard to see how sales won't take off and people are just going to be smoking a pure drug.

This is a fascinating move though.

If corporates start flogging e-cigs, governments stand to lose billions of tax revenue from tobacco products in a short space of time.

The knee jerk reaction will be to ban e-cigs, or tax them as heavily as tobacco, to protect that precious tobacco revenue. Unfortunately, all that BS about the tax being about health would then blow up in the BSers' faces.

Plus e-juice is a whole lot easier to synthesise and smuggle than cartons of fags.

And what about all those ex-smokers living longer; wanting to collect their pensions and expecting state-funded care in their golden years. Oh dear, all that BS about smokers costing the state loads of dosh also stands to blow up in an expensive, hard to get on any moral high horse, kind of way.

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I know plenty of people that have already switched to e-cigs.

Colleague said he's gone from spending £8/day to £8/week. Now that's a lot of lost tax revenue.

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Pretty sure these will turn out to be as healthy as the low fat diet was...

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Pretty sure these will turn out to be as healthy as the low fat diet was...

I think it will be found that nicotine taken in this fashion in some areas reduces risks, ie more healthy than smoking which might lead to GP's encouraging smokers who won't quit to swap as it will cause the body less harm.

Have there been any studies where people have taken pure nicotine to assess risks of ill health? With smoking it's hard to work out where the risk is, is it the nicotine causing the problem or all the crap laced in with the tobacco which is inhaled as smoke.

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How easy is it to overdose on nicotine with them? Would swallowing an ecig finish you off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine_poisoning

The probable lethal dose of nicotine has been reported as between 40 and 60 milligrams (the total amount in about 2 cigarettes if all of the nicotine was absorbed) in adults and about 1 mg/kg in children (less than 1 cigarette) .[7][8][9] Children may become ill following ingestion of one cigarette,[10] ingestion of more than this may cause a child to become severly ill.[11][5] In some cases children have become poisoned by topical medicinal creams which contain nicotine.[12]

How much nicotine is in the liquid that gets vapourized?

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Pretty sure these will turn out to be as healthy as the low fat diet was...

At the moment it looks like they might be considerably less harmful than smoking tobacco.

I don't see anyone claiming that e-cigs are 'healthy'.

With smoking it's hard to work out where the risk is, is it the nicotine causing the problem or all the crap laced in with the tobacco which is inhaled as smoke.

The material I've read over the years barely mentioned the nicotine. Much more mention of the tar, the particulates, and the hundreds of different compounds mixed in with the tobacco.

How easy is it to overdose on nicotine with them? Would swallowing an ecig finish you off?

Eating an e-fag would be like munching on a small torch. I can't see that happening

Swallowing a jar of the juice that's used to top up an e-cig is, I believe potentially fatal. Same as eating a pack of 20 fags or a bottle of paracetamol or a jar of instant coffee wouldn't be too clever either.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine_poisoning

How much nicotine is in the liquid that gets vapourized?

From an e-cig site

Let’s take a look at a hypothetical “medium” strength e-liquid that contains 12 milligrams of nicotine. This means that there are 12 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter. 5 milliliters is about one teaspoon. So, if you use one teaspoon of e-liquid, you will have ingested a little less than 60 mg of nicotine. To give you a sense of how this compares, American cigarettes contain, on average, about 9 mg of nicotine each. However, when you smoke a cigarette, most of the nicotine is burned off or lost due to other inefficiencies so your body only actually ingests about 1 mg of nicotine per cigarette. So a teaspoon of 12 mg e-liquid is equal to about 60 cigarettes. However, inefficiencies in vaporizing make it likely that this number quite a bit less also, but studies have not yet been done to give us an exact number.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine_poisoning

How much nicotine is in the liquid that gets vapourized?

In the Juice I have been using, which is the medium strength, 1.8% so in a 10ml bottle 1.8 milligrams ( I think thats right) I wouldn't think that the vapourisation would be 100% either.

I should add I'm down from 100-150 cigars (mini ones) a week to less than 50 in the last three weeks, hopefully I'll cut down even further.

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In the Juice I have been using, which is the medium strength, 1.8% so in a 10ml bottle 1.8 milligrams ( I think thats right) I wouldn't think that the vapourisation would be 100% either.

I should add I'm down from 100-150 cigars (mini ones) a week to less than 50 in the last three weeks, hopefully I'll cut down even further.

My understanding...

10ml bottle of juice x 18mg/ml medium strength concentration = 180mg

Naturally you're going to lose a lot smoking, vaping or digesting the nicotine juice, which is why the villains in Agatha Christie novels preferred getting it into people with small darts.

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quit smokng about 13 years ago think I might take it up again with e-cigs

I always imagined you with an ePipe! :blink:

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Pretty sure these will turn out to be as healthy as the low fat diet was...

I share your cynicism on low-fat, but the ecig is a true innovation. Thank you, China.

I've had great benefit from paleo-style eating, but still trying to work out a perfect balance after 18 months.

Whereas the benefits to me from ecigs were instant, clear as day, simple to maintain, and (unless they're punitively taxed) probably permanent.

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I made the switch to ecigs a few months ago (or I should say 'vaping' because the thing I use doesn't look much like a cigarette at all). The research done so far suggests that they're orders of magnitude safer than tobacco cigarettes (a recent article in the lancet and many doctors who have studied them back that up).

My health and finances have improved massively since I switched.

I thought they'd be rubbish to start with. Didn't expect much at all but was surprised once I tried one to find that I'd stopped smoking within a few days with no effort at all. So they really do work, if you get good ones (and experienced users will tell you that the good ones look nothing like cigarettes!). Now I can't see myself ever going back to smoking as long as the vaping devices, liquid and flavourings I use are available as I enjoy vaping much more.

Unfortunately that's exactly what the EU and MHRA are trying to take away from me at the moment. There appears to be a very serious and obvious case of regulatory capture taking place right now to hand the electronic cigarette industry over to the big pharmaceutical and tobacco companies.

British American Tobacco who manufacture this ecig (and other tobacco companies entering the ecig market) of course are very happy about that because when the regulation takes place, they will very likely be the only ones with a medicinally licensed product on the market (they are the only uk company heading towards medical licensing or likely to be ready by the deadline currently). The vast majority of the smaller businesses and innovators who have blossomed as an industry over recent years and made electronic cigarettes as successful as they are helping 1.3 million smokers in the UK to start using them are going to be put out of business and their products taken off the shelves come 2016 if the EU and MHRA have their way. They won't be able to afford the very heavy costs of medicinal regulation (meanwhile of course tobacco cigarettes that kill will have no such restrictions on sale).

That is no exaggeration - the MHRA spokesman recently proclaimed not a single product currently on the market would meet their standards for a license (even though they don't know what those standards are yet - as they haven't even come up with them - and they haven't yet tested all - or even a tiny fraction - of the products currently on the market). And where did the MHRA get their research about electronic cigarettes? It's been reported that they got it from British American Tobacco (the makers of this soon to medically licensed cigarette lookalike).

I don't have time to ramble on about it all just now so must resist, but for anyone interested take a look at these sites:

http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/

http://www.clivebates.com/

http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.co.uk/

Whether you smoke or not, or know someone who does, it's really worth a look into this issue as it's very revealing about the way the EU and regulatory capture works, and also of the outright incompetence and in some cases alleged corruption of the people who have been involved. This directive that is being voted on at the moment that will have the effect of handing over the ecig market to big tobacco and pharma companies was the brain child of an EU MP who was sacked for allegedly attempting to elicit tens of millions of Euro bribes from a tobacco company - and who has recently been reported in the news being caught doing a 100 million dollar transfer to a bank in the Bahamas. Yet his little pet project rolls on without him.

It's also worth looking at the recent case of this woman who essentially sidestepped democratic UK government oversight and took the law into her own hands to vote in favour of this EU directive (against the manifesto and will of her own party and dodging the scrutiny committee in the process):

http://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/anna-soubry-must-go.html

The mainstream media are ignoring this and focussing on Cameron's lobbyist mate and plain product packaging of tobacco cigarettes (which will do f*ck all to put smokers off - they've been printing dead bodies and diseased organs on them for years for f*ck sake and people still buy them). That's really just an irrelevant sideshow. The big issue is electronic cigarettes as they have the potential to get literally millions off cigarettes and onto something safer and save millions of lives, and many of those will go on to lower their nicotine level completely and quit (as a significant number have done - even amongst those that had no intention at all of giving up smoking).

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I share your cynicism on low-fat, but the ecig is a true innovation. Thank you, China.

Although china was the first to put it into production, there's an inventor who came up with the fist non-combustible cigarette device patent in the late 50s/early60s who I think was American. And there are patent plans of something VERY closely resembling the electronic cigarettes we use today (possibly moreso in some respects than the original Chinese ones) that I seem to remember belonged to a big tobacco company and they just sat on the patent and did nothing with it for years (though to be fair it may have been difficult for them until battery technology caught up).

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Have there been any studies where people have taken pure nicotine to assess risks of ill health? With smoking it's hard to work out where the risk is, is it the nicotine causing the problem or all the crap laced in with the tobacco which is inhaled as smoke.

The juice used in electronic cigarettes isn't pure nicotine. Pure nicotine is extremely poisonous and can only be bought, sold and handled with a poisons license (and needs to be handled with extreme care as even exposure to the skin can kill). Its pure only in the sense that its been extracted and doesn't contain all of the other stuff you'd naturally find in tobacco.

The juice used in electronic cigarettes consists of a small percentage of nicotine, mixed with either vegetable glycerine or propylene glycol (or a mix of VG and PG). Even people making their own juices from strong nicotine bases and diluting them with VG and PG won't be handling pure nicotine. The strongest nicotine solution available to the public is 7.5% (and this will be diluted before use - typically to between 1 to 2.4% depending upon the individual - 1.8% seems to be the most common).

Both VG and PG are used in all sorts of foods, cosmetics, and even things like asthma inhalers.

Along with the VG, PG and Nicotine, flavourings are often added. These are basically food flavourings (though not ALL food flavourings are suitable for vaping because some of them contain oils and other chemicals that while OK to eat - aren't safe to inhale - so ecig companies use flavourings without these elements or increasingly source from professional flavourists who began making flavours specifically for electronic cigarettes). Some flavourists (such as "FlavourArt" for example) send their flavours to be tested by a lab to be safe for vaping.

Nobody knows the long term effects of inhaling this mixture yet, but there is plenty of research out there that suggests that the resulting vapour is orders of magnitude safer than tobacco cigarette smoke, both to the user and to third parties (in fact the levels of toxins in second hand vapour have been found to be so low that they're difficult to differentiate from background noise).

Nicotine on its own in the correct dose is considered to be a relatively safe mild stimulant (considered about on par with coffee by many doctors/researchers). Its the method of delivery that is problematic as that method has involved burning tobacco leaves (which the tobacco companies adulterate with all manner of other chemicals during manufacture) and inhaling smoke until now.

Cigarette smoke is very hot, contains lots of tar, and thousands of other chemicals in addition to the nicotine, hundreds of which are potentially very harmful. The tar is particularly bad because it along with the hot smoke clogs up and kills off mechanisms in the lungs tied up to immune responses and then sits there full of cancer causing chemicals inside the lungs for years.

Electronic cigarette vapour isn't smoke and doesn't contain tar. It's more akin to fine steam, though the experience of inhaling it is close enough to smoking that its enough for many smokers to enjoy (it takes many like myself by surprise that it's so good in fact).

Opponents of ecigarettes will tell you that carcinogenic chemicals have been detected in electronic cigarettes. What they very often fail to mention is that these were reported in an old and discredited study using old technology, and even then the levels they were detected at were MANY times lower than real cigarettes and were about on par with NRT therapies like gums, patches, inhalators etc. and considered to be low enough not to be of concern.

They will also often tell you that ecigs contain anti-freeze. This is true because PG doesn't freeze and is used as an anti-freezing agent in applications where more common anti-freeze chemicals wouldn't be suitable - like where food safety is a concern for example (i.e. if there's a problem and it gets on food it's safe). PG has also been used in hospital air conditioning systems as it has mild germ killing properties. Their argument in this respect is a bit like saying "stop drinking water because its the same chemical they use in car batteries and nuclear power plants".

The real proof of the pudding though is when you've been a heavy smoker for years and you switch to vaping. You notice very quickly your health improves. Within days the morning cough has got better, you're not getting out of breath so much, you have more energy, your teeth get whiter, and if you're asthmatic then quite often people are finding they no longer need to use inhalers. People with other chest complaints are also reporting better health (backed up by their doctors).

Long term nobody knows what the effects will be, so you're still taking a gamble using them. But considering the known risks of cigarettes and all the other negatives that go along with them, electronic cigarettes look like a safer bet. The healthiest thing is to give up all together of course, but that's difficult for many people, and some people just don't want to quit smoking because they enjoy it - so electronic cigarettes are a helpful alternative, or maybe a stepping stone for those who want to give up eventually.

Studies have found that electronic cigarettes generally aren't of much interest to non-smokers and particularly children (despite the "think of the children" outbursts by their detractors). Of course a small number will take up vaping having not smoked before, but then that's no different to new people taking up smoking. I don't buy the gateway argument as so many long term committed smokers who enjoyed it after switching to vaping don't want to go back to smoking because they no longer enjoy it as much as vaping. The nicer flavours of ecigs have a lot to do with that I think (the anti-vaping people want to ban anything but tobacco flavour though of course).

I heard a good analogy recently about those officials warning smokers not to use electronic cigarettes because their long term safety was not yet known. They said it was a bit like being on the titanic and it's sinking and people are climbing into the life boats. But the official is shouting "don't get in those life boats - they haven't been tested yet and we don't know how safe they are - you people already in the life boats - get out - they may not be safe". There are lots of hardened smokers at the moment who are on the titanic and offering them a life boat seems like a good idea to me - even if it hasn't been tested for long term use to the satisfaction of government health officials (whos jobs and careers lets not forget is all about testing lifeboats).

Despite what the MHRA and certain spokes people will tell you, there has already been a lot of research done on electronic cigarettes and the vapour produced, and there is already regulation regarding nicotine containing liquid and to some extent the devices used to vapourise it (its just that its consumer product regulation and not medical regulation - but then smokers would argue that electronic cigarettes are simply a healthier substitute for tobacco cigarettes and not a medicine). Anyone interested in finding it only has to google for it and it's all out there and open to the public.

Here's one to get anyone interested started:

http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?p=1164〈=en

There are many others if you google. Its just a shame the MHRA and our elected EU leaders seem to have chosen to ignore so many of them.

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P.S. Here's a video review of their new ecig for anyone who is interested. The vapour production doesn't seem bad (but not great either), but it tastes of nothing and the battery ran out after 10 minutes of use:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNkudA59YUg

Hopefully they're not all like that and he just got a dud one, but with such a small battery it's not likely to last very long either way. Still a shame to be using and throwing away all that plastic after such a short time.

For not much more money than a couple of those disposables, you can buy a proper battery that will last hours between charges, can be recharged thousands of times, and with a tank atomizer attached that'll last weeks and can be refilled with nice tasting liquid many times (then when the atomizer does get to the end of its life you can just replace the atomizer head for a couple of quid once the two spares it comes with run out). That is until they force them off the shelves and the BAT style ecig above is all that's available to us of course.

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quit smokng about 13 years ago think I might take it up again with e-cigs

well they do come in very handy.

especially in the airport terminals when you have a delayed flight.

...pity that quite a lot of the rest of europe still is civilised and has designated smoking areas.

if they want growth again in this country then maybe they should seriously reconsider the fascist policies of the last government.

they really don't have very much time to get it right.

I would say 12-18 months max before things go really pete-tong.

...and they are not doing a very good job at all.

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/uk-imperialtobacco-idUKBRE97E07N20130815

Imperial Tobacco Group (IMT.L) said its volumes fell by 7 percent in the first nine months as it continued to be hurt by austerity measures, rising unemployment and illicit trade in Europe.

The British company, which makes Gauloises, Davidoff, West and JPS cigarettes, said its reported stick equivalent volume declined 7 percent, against 5.9 percent in the first half, while reported revenue was down 3 percent.

No mention that electronic cigarettes maybe eating into sales. The blame lies elsewhere.

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I seem to be doing my bit.

Started on the e-cigs middle of July, as of today I haven't bought any cigars for four weeks and I haven't had a cigar for twelve days.

Apart from the purchase of a couple of batteries and clearomisers I'm spending about a fiver a week on juice.

;)

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