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Look At What Microsoft Shares Did Today

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http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-07-19/look-at-what-microsoft-shares-did-today

Also covered here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2370867/Microsoft-shares-hit-biggest-sell-2000-shares-plummet-12-cent.html

Thats got to hurt.

Are MS going to be put through the ringer like IBM were in the 1990s

Earnings warnings like London buses often come in bunches so there is probably more to come .

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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About $34 billion was wiped off Microsoft's market value on Friday, exceeding the size of rival Yahoo Inc.

Just giving something back from the gains they'd made last few months, after the activist investment company took a stake?

April 22, 2013

A hedge-fund executive disclosed that he owns about $2 billion in Microsoft Corp. stock, stating that the value of the software giant’s businesses wasn’t appreciated by other investors.

Microsoft shares rose 3.6% Monday to close at $30.83. The disclosure revived hopes among some Microsoft investors that an influential shareholder could spur changes to a stock price roughly even with 2002 levels.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/04/22/valueact-takes-2-billion-stake-in-microsoft/

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I know plenty of people who decided not to buy a laptop because they couldn't get it without WIndows8, aside from a few fans who post on here (when various threads crop up) I don't know anyone who's happy with it. I have one friend who thought it was 'sorta OK' but has since reformatted and gone back to Windows7 because Win8 got progressively slower and slower.

I would be amazed if any Windows 8 installation was slower than Windows 7 though, especially given how recently it would have been installed however if it was an upgrade rather than full wipe and start from fresh then that could explain things. No matter what MS say always back up and do a full wipe and install as I have NEVER has issues with performance that way.

There is no argument though that Windows 8 has definitely put a lot of people off upgrading but hopefully the new 8.1 will resolve this? Personally I still can't see Mac OS / Linux / Android replacing Windows where it is strong (desktops, laptops & servers). Tablet PCs / Smartphones used for content consumption rather than content creation is another matter though :blink:

Oh and I am running Windows 8 Pro on several last generation machines (< 2011) and they are all noticeably quicker / nicer to work on however the biggest upgrade anyone can make to a laptop / desktop is swapping the hard disk for a SSD one as the performance increase is phenomenal - even a 32GB one (~£40) as the main OS drive coupled with the old drive for storage would drastically increase most computers.

Edited by GeordieAndy

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There are many things that suggest that this may not be the last earnings warning we see. The main problem is that MS lever the sales of most of their other products such as Office on the back of the Windows OS. So if people are delaying upgrading the latter or even opting for something else then they get a double hit. Their RT tablet is also way too expensive compared with some of the competition.

To me the real red flag is the fact they have murdered Technet which was very widely used by System Programmers to keep their skills upto date and to trial system fixes. The alternative MSDN is much more expensive

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/01/microsoft_kills_technet/

Sys Progs may not have much clout in the world of big corporations but amongst SMEs they often control the IT strategy and purchasing decisions. Thus it looks as though MS could end up losing out not just in the consumer market but also among smaller businesses. The strategy of going 'upmarket' and raising prices to protect profits is what many IT companies do before they start to die.

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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I would be amazed if any Windows 8 installation was slower than Windows 7 though, especially given how recently it would have been installed however if it was an upgrade rather than full wipe and start from fresh then that could explain things. No matter what MS say always back up and do a full wipe and install as I have NEVER has issues with performance that way.

There is no argument though that Windows 8 has definitely put a lot of people off upgrading but hopefully the new 8.1 will resolve this? Personally I still can't see Mac OS / Linux / Android replacing Windows where it is strong (desktops, laptops & servers). Tablet PCs / Smartphones used for content consumption rather than content creation is another matter though :blink:

Oh and I am running Windows 8 Pro on several last generation machines (< 2011) and they are all noticeably quicker / nicer to work on however the biggest upgrade anyone can make to a laptop / desktop is swapping the hard disk for a SSD one as the performance increase is phenomenal - even a 32GB one (~£40) as the main OS drive coupled with the old drive for storage would drastically increase most computers.

Microsoft is missing out massively on the Embedded, tablet. and phone market which is where the market is headed.

Linux has a significant share of the server market, especially Web servers.

Microsoft is highly dependent on the traditional "PC" market which is in decline.

Edited by Secure Tenant

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Now find out what they did April 2000... :rolleyes:

Yeah right.

People said the same thing about IBM back in the 1980s.

Famously no one 'got fired for buying' their products until suddenly everyone did and people stopped using them.

The Technet decision is particularly stupid as it is essentially screwing over many of the people who have invested time and money in learning MS product set and then championing them in the business world.

The final killer for MS is that in the twilight of my IT career I have moved into supporting some of their offerings and that has been a harbinger of doom for so many software products over the years.

Sadly for MS I very much doubt it is 2000 all over again

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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Microsoft is missing out massively on the Embedded, tablet. and phone market which is where the market is headed.

Linux has a significant share of the server market, especially Web servers.

Microsoft is highly dependent on the traditional "PC" market which is in decline.

Yeah I agree Linux must have #1 position by a long way for web servers as most use Linux with Apache / Nginx now. I moved across several years ago for client stuff after battling Windows 2003 + ASP / .NET for too long.

For anyone interested, this article I read yesterday summarises why Intel (and therefore MS) really only have one way from here (down) :unsure:

Edited by GeordieAndy

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Microsoft have become to arrogant, just look at the Xbone fiasco. They need to give their customers what they are asking for not what MS think they want. The situation however its not irredeemable.

What I think they should be doing is developing a core operating system that works on all devices, where I differ from Microsoft is that the user interface should be modified to each device. Touch for instance does not work on a desktop. That way I can use the same application over all my devices.

This core operating system should be as efficient as possible, remove all the bloat.

Shockingly I would then either give the operating system away or price it very low, after all how much does Linux, Android cost. This way just as when people used to pirate windows you end up with a massive install base.

Once you have the huge install base you can sell applications, you can have an app store. I would blatantly steal the way Steam works, after all digital titles should not cost the same as physical and the sales are amazing. Its not just about making a profit on each sale its about denying a sale to the competition.

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Along with the Windows 8 fiasco and killing TechNet Microsoft have also canned the Small Business Server which has been running since the late 90s originally based around NT.

While no one I have ever spoken to has liked the SBS Console, which as soon as you deviate slightly from Microsofts narrow idea of what the server should be doing and when barfs... you could just ignore it and by pass the bits you knew where a bit cack. It mean't that a small business 20-25 users could get on site exchange in a server that would last ~5 years (some of our clients have pushed their 2003 installs a few years further...), for around £5000. Now, the alternative is an on site 2012 server for files, custom apps, databases, many of which are legacy and customers have no alternative but to have on site servers, or their broadband is so awful the idea of putting everything on 'the cloud' is preposterous, and hosted exchange. Even to go for basic hosting, 25 users worth of Office 365 Exchange only is £780 per annum, bringing the total cost over 5 years to over £8000. This is a marked increase in cost for a small business while gaining next to nothing.

Larger clients tho still small (~50 users) will have to stump up for a full exchange licence, I've not had to price this up yet but I suspect the difference between hosted and buying exchange will be in favor of buying exchange, but still cost significantly more than using SBS.

For the very small businesses <10 I can see the hosted exchange being attractive, and the need for an onsite server becoming unnecessary unless legacy apps are involved (which they quite frequently are), so cost again will probably increase overall.

For Microsoft of course, this is great. If people continue to stick with their products their revenue goes up. However, how many people are going to be doing that? Over the next few years we'll be actively seeking and testing alternative solutions, fortunately most of our clients upgraded to SBS2011 last year, or are doing so this year. So we have a bit of space, but new clients coming on board needing replacements for the existing servers immediately? They may just have to fork out for hosted exchange, either 365 or elsewhere.

And don't even get me started on 'the cloud' and who owns your data, where is your data, and how the hell do you get it back once its there!

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I know plenty of people who decided not to buy a laptop because they couldn't get it without WIndows8, aside from a few fans who post on here (when various threads crop up) I don't know anyone who's happy with it. I have one friend who thought it was 'sorta OK' but has since reformatted and gone back to Windows7 because Win8 got progressively slower and slower.

I know there's much more to MS than end-user OS but Win8 has really got to be hurting them?

I wouldn't have been buying anything with Windows 8 on it anyway due to my dislike of the product and marketing strategy.

But besides that, as more and more detail has emerged of how Microsoft cheerfully give up their customers privacy and data to the Yank spooks (including backdoors into the Windows OS) I will be ditching Windows in favour of Linux from here on in for my personal computing.

I can't see how any sane business would want to spend big bucks on migrating their systems to yet another version of Windows when the confidential business data processed by/stored on the systems has been seen to be essentially open to unlimited view by a foreign government (that has been shown to have extensive interaction with its domestic corporations).

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Microsoft have become to arrogant, just look at the Xbone fiasco. They need to give their customers what they are asking for not what MS think they want. The situation however its not irredeemable.

What I think they should be doing is developing a core operating system that works on all devices, where I differ from Microsoft is that the user interface should be modified to each device. Touch for instance does not work on a desktop. That way I can use the same application over all my devices.

This core operating system should be as efficient as possible, remove all the bloat.

Shockingly I would then either give the operating system away or price it very low, after all how much does Linux, Android cost. This way just as when people used to pirate windows you end up with a massive install base.

Once you have the huge install base you can sell applications, you can have an app store. I would blatantly steal the way Steam works, after all digital titles should not cost the same as physical and the sales are amazing. Its not just about making a profit on each sale its about denying a sale to the competition.

Agreed. I'd go further and say Microsoft only give customers what they are willing to provide. The Xbox stuff is a perfect example. No customer wants their console to have less features in the next generation (especially a feature that means you can't pass/sell on games you've finished with). It's completely self serving - and the sad thing is that Microsoft don't even see it until it's pointed out to them.

You are never unexpectedly delighted by a Microsoft product, you can only hope not to be disappointed. As a result, there's very little love for them. I hear good things about their phone OS, but I'd never get a phone with it on unless there was the chance of replacing it with Android - because of the high chance it'll have been fubarred in some respect.

Got to say, Apple have similar problems with some of products. I moved away from the iPhone because it was becoming a pain in the backside to set up a phone that would let you tether, use with any network, install a normal sim and install whatever software you wanted.

Edited by StainlessSteelCat

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Agreed. I'd go further and say Microsoft only give customers what they are willing to provide.

How long has it taken you guys to notice?

I had this struggle with them about 1992, when I was unable to open a whole bunch of saved Word docs anywhere, including several diffewrent Word versions on PCs of various ages. Before that I had liked word :wacko: but that was a powerful lesson in not entrusting anything to a vendor who uses closed/proprietary/non-interchangable standards.

And now Apple has found a bunch of Greater Fools with IOS!

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Agreed. I'd go further and say Microsoft only give customers what they are willing to provide. The Xbox stuff is a perfect example. No customer wants their console to have less features in the next generation (especially a feature that means you can't pass/sell on games you've finished with). It's completely self serving - and the sad thing is that Microsoft don't even see it until it's pointed out to them.

You are never unexpectedly delighted by a Microsoft product, you can only hope not to be disappointed. As a result, there's very little love for them. I hear good things about their phone OS, but I'd never get a phone with it on unless there was the chance of replacing it with Android - because of the high chance it'll have been fubarred in some respect.

Got to say, Apple have similar problems with some of products. I moved away from the iPhone because it was becoming a pain in the backside to set up a phone that would let you tether, use with any network, install a normal sim and install whatever software you wanted.

US Companies never apologise for anything....something in their legal culture.

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Yeah I agree Linux must have #1 position by a long way for web servers as most use Linux with Apache / Nginx now. I moved across several years ago for client stuff after battling Windows 2003 + ASP / .NET for too long.

Most large corporates I've worked for use linux for their core IT infrastructure and web content delivery. Its a bit of a no-brainer really given that most of the software you need is free. Its also much easier to automate deployment and maintenance and it plays much better with having part or all of your systems hosted on elastic cloud type setups because you can increase capacity just by cloning servers without having to worry about OS and app licensing issues.

MS stuff is still quite widely used on corporate desktops and laptops but they are under assault from apple on this front.

Edited by goldbug9999

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Along with the Windows 8 fiasco and killing TechNet Microsoft have also canned the Small Business Server which has been running since the late 90s originally based around NT.

While no one I have ever spoken to has liked the SBS Console, which as soon as you deviate slightly from Microsofts narrow idea of what the server should be doing and when barfs... you could just ignore it and by pass the bits you knew where a bit cack. It mean't that a small business 20-25 users could get on site exchange in a server that would last ~5 years (some of our clients have pushed their 2003 installs a few years further...), for around £5000. Now, the alternative is an on site 2012 server for files, custom apps, databases, many of which are legacy and customers have no alternative but to have on site servers, or their broadband is so awful the idea of putting everything on 'the cloud' is preposterous, and hosted exchange. Even to go for basic hosting, 25 users worth of Office 365 Exchange only is £780 per annum, bringing the total cost over 5 years to over £8000. This is a marked increase in cost for a small business while gaining next to nothing.

Larger clients tho still small (~50 users) will have to stump up for a full exchange licence, I've not had to price this up yet but I suspect the difference between hosted and buying exchange will be in favor of buying exchange, but still cost significantly more than using SBS.

For the very small businesses <10 I can see the hosted exchange being attractive, and the need for an onsite server becoming unnecessary unless legacy apps are involved (which they quite frequently are), so cost again will probably increase overall.

For Microsoft of course, this is great. If people continue to stick with their products their revenue goes up. However, how many people are going to be doing that? Over the next few years we'll be actively seeking and testing alternative solutions, fortunately most of our clients upgraded to SBS2011 last year, or are doing so this year. So we have a bit of space, but new clients coming on board needing replacements for the existing servers immediately? They may just have to fork out for hosted exchange, either 365 or elsewhere.

And don't even get me started on 'the cloud' and who owns your data, where is your data, and how the hell do you get it back once its there!

Good points about the canning of SBS which I had forgotten about

With all the hype about functions moving to the Cloud it is worth remembering that it is not likely to be an available option for small businesses in many parts of the UK which have relatively poor internet connectivity. Since they are unlikely to be able to afford to up sticks and move to a major conurbation they are going to be looking for cheaper server alternatives.

MS are really screwing over the SME at the moment which I think eventually will come back to bite them on the ar*e

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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I wouldn't have been buying anything with Windows 8 on it anyway due to my dislike of the product and marketing strategy.

But besides that, as more and more detail has emerged of how Microsoft cheerfully give up their customers privacy and data to the Yank spooks (including backdoors into the Windows OS) I will be ditching Windows in favour of Linux from here on in for my personal computing.

I can't see how any sane business would want to spend big bucks on migrating their systems to yet another version of Windows when the confidential business data processed by/stored on the systems has been seen to be essentially open to unlimited view by a foreign government (that has been shown to have extensive interaction with its domestic corporations).

When my business tenders for contracts, there is of course always a whole section on security, where we drone on about the security of our computer systems. In the next tender we submit, I think it would be hilarious to put in a proviso that our systems are as secure as Microsoft allows them to be. Not sure the others in the business would let me get away with that, though.

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MS are really screwing over the SME at the moment which I think eventually will come back to bite them on the ar*e

One can only hope.

We're an SBS house for our support clients, but also a CentOS house for our database operations, web services and various other bits. We only have one guy who's windows only and he's our sole VB developer. We'll be looking for Linux solutions, maybe Samba4 and Zimbra over the next few years. The biggest barriers to change are going to be the users we have to support - office 2007>2010 can confuse the living hell out of them so I'm not sure how they will get on with the likes of Zimbra desktop... time will tell.

Oh, and has anyone noticed the pricing on Office 365 Premium where you can download the desktop apps? £10/month... given that if you'd bought Office 2007 you'd probably still be happy to use it now that's a HUGE increase in cost, but maybe that's Microsoft's answer to PCs/Office suites lasting so long, move everyone to subscriptions and gouge them? (MS are not alone on this one, look at Adobe's offerings...) :(

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Microsoft is missing out massively on the Embedded, tablet. and phone market which is where the market is headed.

Linux has a significant share of the server market, especially Web servers.

Microsoft is highly dependent on the traditional "PC" market which is in decline.

I currently have 1 PC and 2 laptops running various flavours of Windows. I expect that to come down to 1 Windows device in the next few years and then only because I have to use some MS products professionally. My guess is that one of the other devices will wind up on Linux and the other will be an Android tablet. I already do quite a bit of my web browsing just using a version of Puppy Linux that I simply load into memory on my machines from either a CD or a USB memory stick

My wife who is far more typical of many domestic consumers of tech effectively abandoned the PC for her IPhone and IPAD two years ago. I can see that she might conceivably switch to Android for her basic IT needs but I dont think she will ever be going back to Windows at least in its current form.

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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One can only hope.

We're an SBS house for our support clients, but also a CentOS house for our database operations, web services and various other bits. We only have one guy who's windows only and he's our sole VB developer. We'll be looking for Linux solutions, maybe Samba4 and Zimbra over the next few years. The biggest barriers to change are going to be the users we have to support - office 2007>2010 can confuse the living hell out of them so I'm not sure how they will get on with the likes of Zimbra desktop... time will tell.

Oh, and has anyone noticed the pricing on Office 365 Premium where you can download the desktop apps? £10/month... given that if you'd bought Office 2007 you'd probably still be happy to use it now that's a HUGE increase in cost, but maybe that's Microsoft's answer to PCs/Office suites lasting so long, move everyone to subscriptions and gouge them? (MS are not alone on this one, look at Adobe's offerings...) :(

In think this time it is a bit different from the usual hate fest that accompanies MS releases and policy announcements. Normally the cries of foul come from what can only be described as the 'usual suspects'. Now we are hearing serious doubts being raised by people who are either agnostic about operating systems and application software (I am definitely in that camp) or ,even more worryingly for Uncle Fester, people who have historically been happy to swallow the whole MS enchilada and come back for more

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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On the rare occasions I'm forced to use a newer consumer windows machine these days I'm stunned at how unusable it feels, and wonder how it can have gone so wrong since XP, which felt good to me.

Part of the problem. XP did everything a lot of people wanted it to. So where do MS go from there ? Fix the bugs in XP ? Or add in a load of rubbish new features that no one actually wants and mess around with the system for the hell of it in order to attempt to justify an expensive OS purchase or transfer ?

For me the latest versions of Office are a disaster. 2003 has everything most people want. Why not just fix the bugs in that and add in a few features that people would like, such as easier to manipulate graphs in excel ? No they add in a whole load of new "features" that no one wants or uses, change the look and style round of the user interface so they is a miserable learning curve in how to use it. And they still haven't migrated the office scripting onto .Net. Probably because their marketing "gurus" believe there is more money in changing the default fonts and having a funky thick coloured line on a chart.

Bottom line is that Office 2003/Windows XP does pretty much everything people want. They don't want to have to pay for a new OS that gives them little extra benefit and has a learning curve. MS force this on people (or try to) because it is the only way to get revenue.

Then you have the Windows 8 debacle. Let's face it there are three main classes of PC users. Class one is people who only use them for music, vids, pics and a bit of web browsing. Tablets are great for this. Then there is class two, people who use PCs as tools in their workplace and are a bit more savvy. They might do stuff like spreadsheets, which let's face it on a tablet are pretty poor. Then class three, which are the tech savvy nerds. These people can handle a complex OS and configuration options.

It seems to me that in 8 MS decided because of the threat from other companies they are trying to morph their OS to class 1 users, whereas business is mainly class 2 and 3. If they had stuck to class 2+3 and made a simple class 1 interface as an option they would have had a delimited in their product range, yet still be able to cater for class 1. But they have pushed class 1 so hard in 8 that classes 2 and 3 are feeling isolated and annoyed that the stuff they could work with in the past is changing for no apparent reason and they find it hard to see the "benefit" in upgrading.

MS are making some key mistakes IMO. First they are adding in a load of stuff no one wants into their software and secondly they are trying to force people to pay for this stuff they don't want. Sooner or later this is going to end in tears for them.

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The only reason MS have lasted as long as they have is they have a de facto monopoly on operating systems.

For me, windows has been getting progressively worse and less usable since windows 98...XP was OK i guess, but everything after that ive found a PITA.

If retailers were forced to offer the option of installing Linux or MS, MS would be dead in the water IMO.

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The only reason MS have lasted as long as they have is they have a de facto monopoly on operating systems.

For me, windows has been getting progressively worse and less usable since windows 98...XP was OK i guess, but everything after that ive found a PITA.

If retailers were forced to offer the option of installing Linux or MS, MS would be dead in the water IMO.

Windows 7 is actually better than XP. Win8 was a disaster obviously.

However, many legacy programs only runs on MS, unless they start charging £500 per copy... they will be around for a good while, without even bothering to develop win 8/9 etc

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Windows 7 is actually better than XP. Win8 was a disaster obviously.

However, many legacy programs only runs on MS, unless they start charging £500 per copy... they will be around for a good while, without even bothering to develop win 8/9 etc

They will survive alright just as IBM did in the 1990s. They just will struggle ever to get back their old dominance

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  • 238 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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