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Universal Credit New Thread.complete Disaster.

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/universal-credit-roll-out-from-october-2013

As we all thought on here would happen on the long running Universal Credit thread UC is unworkable.

The above press release admits as much in DWP speak.

They are spreading UC in October to 6 new Jobcentres.That means ten in total (4 already).

Whats telling is even in the new 6 only single unemployed claiments will go on UC.No doubt all worked out manual on paper.Single unemployed people are very easy to work out under UC.Couples/single people with children working different hours every week are where most claims are and its obvious by this press release the IT isn't/cant handle the claims.

I am now 100% sure if they do roll this out next April to everyone it will be a complete disaster.Im talking complete meltdown of the welfare system.

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/universal-credit-roll-out-from-october-2013

As we all thought on here would happen on the long running Universal Credit thread UC is unworkable.

The above press release admits as much in DWP speak.

They are spreading UC in October to 6 new Jobcentres.That means ten in total (4 already).

Whats telling is even in the new 6 only single unemployed claiments will go on UC.No doubt all worked out manual on paper.Single unemployed people are very easy to work out under UC.Couples/single people with children working different hours every week are where most claims are and its obvious by this press release the IT isn't/cant handle the claims.

I am now 100% sure if they do roll this out next April to everyone it will be a complete disaster.Im talking complete meltdown of the welfare system.

It won't be rolled out to everyone next April. The best will be single claimants in all areas (and I highly doubt it will be capable of doing that).

Edited by eek

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...more or less what Johnny Void has said...

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/

Universal Credit took another step towards dismal failure yesterday as the DWP announced a dramatic scaling down of the October launch of the new benefit system.

The new benefit will now be trialled at just six Jobcentres, taking the total number involved in the new regime to ten. Crucially only newly unemployed single claimants will be transferred onto the new benefit. This means bungling DWP Ministers will have no idea how the new system will handle part time or self-employed workers, people with children, disabled people or those on low incomes.

Iain Duncan Smith has said the new regime will be rolled out to all new claimants from April 2014 – a claim which now looks like pie in the sky.

The reason for the shambles is hidden in the garbled DWP press release yesterday which announced the scaling down of the pilot scheme. Apparently ministers have decided: “that they should explore enhancing the IT for Universal Credit working with the Government Digital Service. Advancements in technology since the current system was developed have meant that a more responsive system that is more flexible and secure could potentially be built.

This would marry with the best of the existing system – which has proved viable during Pathfinder testing. Any enhanced IT solution will need to be both cost effective and deliverable to original timescales.”

Which sounds an awful lot like it’s back to the drawing board folks.

According to IT website The Register, even the miniscule Universal Credit pilot which has been taking place is proving to be a disaster. Insiders claim that due to failures in the computer system much of the information is being entered by hand. They also warn the system as it stands is ‘not scalable’ and vulnerable to being hijacked by fraudsters – and they don’t mean Lord Fraud, the inept toff in charge of some aspects of the scheme.

It is Iain Duncan Smith however who has spent hundreds of millions of pounds already on a system which doesn’t work. The same Iain Duncan Smith who has spent hundreds of millions on a Work Programme that doesn’t help people find jobs, or £16 million on the Universal Jobmatch website which is still littered with spam, scam and spoof vacancies.

Iain Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms – which have only increased the social security bill – are starting to look like one of the most expensive farce’s in the history of the UK. As hundreds of thousands of people stare homelessness in the face due to the bedroom tax, IDS is blowing billions pursuing endless crazy schemes that all end in disaster. And it’s all perfectly timed to blow up in the Government’s face in the year running up to the next election. If only Liam Byrne and Ed Miliband weren’t such ******ing idiots then that might be something to feel happy about.

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/universal-credit-roll-out-from-october-2013

They are spreading UC in October to 6 new Jobcentres.That means ten in total (4 already).

Even more from the PCS Union website about the Jobcentres in question:

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/pcs_comment/index.cfm/id/019D41D7-6971-4852-A0A6644FCEAC13EB

All are lower than the UK average and lower than the average for their region.

Harrogate's claimant count rate is the lowest in the whole of Yorkshire and the Humber and less than a quarter of that for Bradford, just 20 miles away. Other findings are:

Bath is lower than south west average and almost half claimant count rate of Bristol

Flintshire, which includes Shotton, has the fifth lowest rate in Wales

Hammersmith falls just below the London average

Highland, which includes Inverness, is two-thirds the average for Scotland

Rugby is half the average for the West Midlands, and nearby Coventry

Analysis by a social policy expert for Citizens Advice also found the six jobcentres cover just 0.6% of all JSA claimants and 0.1% of all households expected to be on universal by 2017.

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Another telling bit is where they say,

"we should explore enhancing the IT for Universal Credit working with the Government Digital Service. Advancements in technology since the current system was developed have meant that a more responsive system that is more flexible and secure could potentially be built.

This would marry with the best of the existing system – which has PROVED VIABLE during Pathfinder testing. Any enhanced IT solution will need to be both cost effective and deliverable to original timescales.”

In other words its back to the drawing board,,proved viable means it isn't working and is their speak for it could/might work.Remember this is only with single unemployed people on it.

Id love to know if even these are still being done with pen and paper each week.

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In other words its back to the drawing board,,proved viable means it isn't working and is their speak for it could/might work.Remember this is only with single unemployed people on it.

Using JC's with a way below average claim count...I wonder what'll happen if they rolled it out to say Merthyr or Middlesbrough?

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Using JC's with a way below average claim count...I wonder what'll happen if they rolled it out to say Merthyr or Middlesbrough?

It says to me they are still doing them manual on paper.If you take a single unemployed person and then a couple with two children.One adult works 30 to 45 hours a week and variable bonus.Other works 16 hours.It is many multiples more complicated working it out.Probably an hour each week per claim.Most Jobcentres will have around 3000+ to do monthly when UC kicks in if you count in the tax credits/income support etc.

There is simply no way this is going to work.How can they start rolling it out to everyone from April when so far they haven't even touched anyone but the easiest.?

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It says to me they are still doing them manual on paper.If you take a single unemployed person and then a couple with two children.One adult works 30 to 45 hours a week and variable bonus.Other works 16 hours.It is many multiples more complicated working it out.Probably an hour each week per claim.Most Jobcentres will have around 3000+ to do monthly when UC kicks in if you count in the tax credits/income support etc.

There is simply no way this is going to work.How can they start rolling it out to everyone from April when so far they haven't even touched anyone but the easiest.?

Start a sweepstake on when it'll get dropped. Bagsie PBR day. It's not been a great year for Osborne, and with the second phase of HTB being rolled out in Jan too, 2014 ain't shaping up too good either :-)

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Start a sweepstake on when it'll get dropped. Bagsie PBR day. It's not been a great year for Osborne, and with the second phase of HTB being rolled out in Jan too, 2014 ain't shaping up too good either :-)

Well they have said 2017 to be fully working so that gives them past the election.Id think it will be rolled out in April 2014 as said but it will still be only single unemployed people and maybe new claims but no families already claiming are moved over.It will collapse after the election.

I would think be December around 2000 people would be on UC across the country.Four months later its supposed to be 14million :lol:

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Well they have said 2017 to be fully working so that gives them past the election.Id think it will be rolled out in April 2014 as said but it will still be only single unemployed people and maybe new claims but no families already claiming are moved over.It will collapse after the election.

I would think be December around 2000 people would be on UC across the country.Four months later its supposed to be 14million :lol:

Farcical.

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Doesn't affect Tory (Daily Mail) voters, so who cares eh?

Knighthood for Mr D1ckhead Smith no doubt.

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I've never understood why governments can't make programs and databases that work relatively cheaply. Why does it cost millions and sometimes billions to write a computer program to add up a few things and store some information?

Even incredibly complex 3D realtime computer games such as World of Warcraft which has hundreds of stats for each player and that copes with millions of people playing simultaneously and interacting with each other and the environment cost far less than the most bog standard government database.

Someone is making a lot of money out of these government IT contracts.

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I don't get it. What is it about the new benefit system that makes it so difficult to implement?

UC replaces a whole raft of benefits including tax credits.

Edited by Secure Tenant

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I don't get it. What is it about the new benefit system that makes it so difficult to implement?

Means testing over a four week period.They are claiming UC is one benefit,it isn't.Its under 25 rate,over 25 rate child rate,family rate,disability rate,enhanced disability rate,taper rate,allowed earnings different rates etc etc.

Right now tax credits do the calculation once a year on a years earnings and an at that moment family set up and get 99% of claims wrong.

UC rolls far more benefits in and needs to do it real time monthly.

The ironic thing is it does nothing to encourage work.In fact its likely it will put more people off work as the only claims likely to be right are unemployed ones.

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UC replaces a whole raft of benefits including tax credits.

I don't understand the difficulty either. Surely they just plug in their details and then it tells them how much they can claim. Why is having one benefit harder than loads of separate ones?

When anything changes in the public sector they make it sound like trying to build a scale model of St Pauls Cathedral out of matchsticks in a gale force wind. It's just a slight change in the way people are means tested FFS.

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I don't understand the difficulty either. Surely they just plug in their details and then it tells them how much they can claim. Why is having one benefit harder than loads of separate ones?

When anything changes in the public sector they make it sound like trying to build a scale model of St Pauls Cathedral out of matchsticks in a gale force wind. It's just a slight change in the way people are means tested FFS.

Large ish IT projects turn into empires and job creation schemes pretty easily, when the non techies at the top lose control of the project by not being ruthless enough - I would expect government to be very prone to this as to really deal with typical flabby project management problems would require a notably politically incorrect approach entailing constructive dismissal of various shades

Hence the catastrophe it seems to be

Anyhow, what are the odds that many of the same contractors that worked on the aborted NHS digital spine project, are currently employed on Universal Credit?

(It should be a straightforward enough ground up project where most of the functional gubbins is dealt with at the db code level, but then that wouldn't justify keeping the same contractors hired for another x years to fix it would it?)

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Means testing over a four week period.They are claiming UC is one benefit,it isn't.Its under 25 rate,over 25 rate child rate,family rate,disability rate,enhanced disability rate,taper rate,allowed earnings different rates etc etc.

Right now tax credits do the calculation once a year on a years earnings and an at that moment family set up and get 99% of claims wrong.

UC rolls far more benefits in and needs to do it real time monthly.

The ironic thing is it does nothing to encourage work.In fact its likely it will put more people off work as the only claims likely to be right are unemployed ones.

+1

All the earnings information needs to come from HMRC RTI system which at the moment can barely cope with employers submitting details once a month. My snout in HMRC has advised me that a paltry three months returns has already reduced parts of the system to a crawl and that is before many of the biggest employers join RTI in October. The truth is the data will never be 'Real Time' enough for UC.

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Large ish IT projects turn into empires and job creation schemes pretty easily, when the non techies at the top lose control of the project by not being ruthless enough - I would expect government to be very prone to this as to really deal with typical flabby project management problems would require a notably politically incorrect approach entailing constructive dismissal of various shades

Hence the catastrophe it seems to be

Anyhow, what are the odds that many of the same contractors that worked on the aborted NHS digital spine project, are currently employed on Universal Credit?

(It should be a straightforward enough ground up project where most of the functional gubbins is dealt with at the db code level, but then that wouldn't justify keeping the same contractors hired for another x years to fix it would it?)

Have you ever tried getting a Requirement Specification out of Civil Servants and Politicians ?

If you had you might have a bit more sympathy for the poor sods trying to build the system.

On many government contracts application developers are not even allowed to talk to end users. It is quite common for designs to be passed through two or three levels of bureaucracy before they reach the people who actually cut the code. There are also likely to be multiple Project Managers from all the various suppliers as well as from the Civil Service. Add in the fact that many Government Department CIOs are on 3 year contracts which often expire mid project and it is not hard to see why confusion reigns. The miracle is not that the systems are so bad but that any get built at all.

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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So it's the real time data collection?

I suppose that makes some kind of sense, at least I can see that would be the most difficult bit, although I still don't see why it should be that difficult.

Anyway, why not just drop the real time data collection? It seems like an odd kind of reform.

I don't remember ever thinking, 'wow, this benefits system would be super-awesome if only it ran in real-time.'

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So it's the real time data collection?

I suppose that makes some kind of sense, at least I can see that would be the most difficult bit, although I still don't see why it should be that difficult.

Anyway, why not just drop the real time data collection? It seems like an odd kind of reform.

I don't remember ever thinking, 'wow, this benefits system would be super-awesome if only it ran in real-time.'

IDS seems to think the reason people don't work is because of the fact most jobs now at that end are very short contracts and its not worth dropping off benefits.He thinks that UC will solve that because its "real time".So someone could take a three week contract and the benefits would simply adjust.

However as with most welfare ministers he doesn't understand welfare.The reason people don't move into work among families is because its not very tempting to work in some hell hole to be treated like crap for £20 a week extra.As benefits moved higher the % difference between work and no work has fallen to around 12%.Add in travel costs its minus in many cases.

UC doesn't solve any of that.Its the same system we have now mostly with the same amounts paid out and no more incentives to work.

The only difference is the conditionality involved in UC.To be honest I think that's the main thrust of UC.To be able to push part time workers to full time.The problem for IDS is that its very unlikely many if any part time workers will be sanctioned as the resource isn't there to police it.

Welfare is hugely difficult to reform without making deep cuts and IDS has fallen into the trap of not understanding its the amounts paid out that discourage work,not the delivery.Even if UC "works" it wont save 1p in welfare and will encourage 0 people into work.Sad but true.

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IDS seems to think the reason people don't work is because of the fact most jobs now at that end are very short contracts and its not worth dropping off benefits.He thinks that UC will solve that because its "real time".So someone could take a three week contract and the benefits would simply adjust.

However as with most welfare ministers he doesn't understand welfare.The reason people don't move into work among families is because its not very tempting to work in some hell hole to be treated like crap for £20 a week extra.As benefits moved higher the % difference between work and no work has fallen to around 12%.Add in travel costs its minus in many cases.

UC doesn't solve any of that.Its the same system we have now mostly with the same amounts paid out and no more incentives to work.

The only difference is the conditionality involved in UC.To be honest I think that's the main thrust of UC.To be able to push part time workers to full time.The problem for IDS is that its very unlikely many if any part time workers will be sanctioned as the resource isn't there to police it.

Welfare is hugely difficult to reform without making deep cuts and IDS has fallen into the trap of not understanding its the amounts paid out that discourage work,not the delivery.Even if UC "works" it wont save 1p in welfare and will encourage 0 people into work.Sad but true.

...and those deep cuts would mean cutting pensions - which ain't ever gonna happen...

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I think a lot of UC threads overlook the upcoming benefit cap. If your benefits are currently over the benefit cap it doesn't really matter whether UC works or not, the cap will kick in regardless. The benefit cap includes in work benefits like child tax credit and housing benefit. Families in the south will be the hardest hit. If I was more cynical I would think the UC farce is a simple diversion from the real event, which is the benefit cap.

Edited by lastlaugh

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IDS seems to think the reason people don't work is because of the fact most jobs now at that end are very short contracts and its not worth dropping off benefits.He thinks that UC will solve that because its "real time".So someone could take a three week contract and the benefits would simply adjust.

However as with most welfare ministers he doesn't understand welfare.The reason people don't move into work among families is because its not very tempting to work in some hell hole to be treated like crap for £20 a week extra.As benefits moved higher the % difference between work and no work has fallen to around 12%.Add in travel costs its minus in many cases.

UC doesn't solve any of that.Its the same system we have now mostly with the same amounts paid out and no more incentives to work.

The only difference is the conditionality involved in UC.To be honest I think that's the main thrust of UC.To be able to push part time workers to full time.The problem for IDS is that its very unlikely many if any part time workers will be sanctioned as the resource isn't there to police it.

Welfare is hugely difficult to reform without making deep cuts and IDS has fallen into the trap of not understanding its the amounts paid out that discourage work,not the delivery.Even if UC "works" it wont save 1p in welfare and will encourage 0 people into work.Sad but true.

The problem is that much work is poorly paid and precarious and doesn't pay for life's essentials - shelter, water, heating, lighting, food, apparel, transport - either at all or sufficiently regularly.

Welfare is impossible to reform without some other means of reassigning resources so that the above is no longer the case. Or letting people suffer and die from lack of the basics.

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