Sugar Or Fat ?

[Nuggets Mahoney]

Wow, fascinating stuff.

I do wonder how much influence the food industry has had over dietary science during the past three or four decades - it does seem that it has taken a long long time for us to come to the conclusion that refined sugar, refined flour and trans fats are the ones doing the most harm, rather than the animal fats that we've been consuming for thousands of years.... and even now this is only seemingly obvious to those people who do their own research into these matters - the mainstream media and dieticians still seem to be peddling the old mantras. And let's not even get started on the 'diet' foods industry!

We are talking the mother of all compensation bonanzas if and when it turns out the stuff 'They' have been advising us to eat is the stuff that's making us sick

There are strong parallels with the surge in interest in e-cigarettes in the face of institutional indifference and obfuscation. Government and other institutions extort money from us on the pretext that they are looking after our well-being. In practice, their priorities appear to be nothing of the sort.

[snowflux]

I imagine we have been eating a lot of animal fats for the majority of our time on this planet.

I very much doubt you can say the same for high amounts of sugar.

Our bodies cannot really cope with it - that's for sure.

It's true that we've evolved to cope with food scarcity and that surplus of calories available today, especially in refined sugars, is playing havoc with our diets. However, natural selection isn't that interested in what happens to us once we're past reproductive age. This means that there are likely to be foods which are beneficial when young but which, for instance, cause heart disease or cancer in later life. These would have been fine for paleo man, but should perhaps be avoided today. The prime suspect here is red meat.

[crashmonitor]

We are talking the mother of all compensation bonanzas if and when it turns out the stuff 'They' have been advising us to eat is the stuff that's making us sick

There are strong parallels with the surge in interest in e-cigarettes in the face of institutional indifference and obfuscation. Government and other institutions extort money from us on the pretext that they are looking after our well-being. In practice, their priorities appear to be nothing of the sort.

Sugar aside, I see the Government pyramid is loaded with carbs at the base and they fit the fats in at the narrow apex. A cunning plan to get us fat and die quicker to save on welfare or good health advice?

[ccc]

Yes GILF must be frustrating when following so called 'expert' advice and seeing very little results.

The only things i consume that i know are not too great for me are booze and sugar.

Not had fizzy drinks for years. However i do have too much other sweet stuff. Too much beer too - but cutting that down.

Don't touch pasta or bread (apart from flat bread with curry etc)

Don't miss it at all.

Whenever i fry i use beef dripping. Not concerned by that in the slightest.Same goes for slow cooked meat with lots of fat.

Tastes amazing.

[ccc]

It's true that we've evolved to cope with food scarcity and that surplus of calories available today, especially in refined sugars, is playing havoc with our diets. However, natural selection isn't that interested in what happens to us once we're past reproductive age. This means that there are likely to be foods which are beneficial when young but which, for instance, cause heart disease or cancer in later life. These would have been fine for paleo man, but should perhaps be avoided today. The prime suspect here is red meat.

Could be a point. I do love red meat though !!

Another example could be breast milk. Very high in sugar.

[StainlessSteelCat]

Wow, fascinating stuff.

I do wonder how much influence the food industry has had over dietary science during the past three or four decades - it does seem that it has taken a long long time for us to come to the conclusion that refined sugar, refined flour and trans fats are the ones doing the most harm, rather than the animal fats that we've been consuming for thousands of years.... and even now this is only seemingly obvious to those people who do their own research into these matters - the mainstream media and dieticians still seem to be peddling the old mantras. And let's not even get started on the 'diet' foods industry!

I think consuming excess amounts of foods made from refined flour and sugar have been well known to be bad for you since at least the 80s, probably earlier. I remember reading "Pure, white and deadly" - a polemic on sugar - around then. I'm not convinced consuming huge amount of farmed animal fats is the answer either.

Elements of the food industry seems to have fought every progressive change. Nutrition labelling is still something of a maze for example. Equally, if you ask for low fat, they'll give it to you - and generally replace the fat with lots of sugar.

Ultimately, though you've got to die of something.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

Ultimately, though you've got to die of something.

It's the ten or twenty years of debilitating illness that may be optional

[Nuggets Mahoney]

Sugar aside, I see the Government pyramid is loaded with carbs at the base and they fit the fats in at the narrow apex. A cunning plan to get us fat and die quicker to save on welfare or good health advice?

I doubt there's any co-ordinated planning at work. Some researchers have traced the origins of that food pyramid back to the 1960s boom in US cereal production and associated lobbying.

Anyway, practically speaking, it'd be hard work to feed the world a high protein/ high animal fat diet.

There is a potential paradox/ trade-off. Grass-based foods enable the planet to support billions of people. Those foods may also be shortening life-spans and making people sick.

[RichB]

Sugar is evil. I crave it. It makes me even hungrier if I eat it. I can basically eat it non stop

Fat makes me feel full. After a big healthy meal, I can go 24 hours without even thinking about food.

Even after a big meal, when I couldn't squeeze another thing inside me, I would still be able to eat a dessert, if I let myself. (I suspect there may be logic to it - sugar provides instant energy which will actually help digest the food in your stomach. If you're just eating fat, then the body can't digest it fast enough from its own resources, so you need to pause.)

When I'm bored and think "I wish I had some chocolate biscuits in the house", and make an effort to think what I might like to eat instead (some macaroni cheese? Steak?) I realise that Im not really hungry.

Remember also, that some things that you might be counting as "fatty", like burgers with various relishes, and many ready meals or pizzas can have getting on for 10% sugar in them.

There are other foods that are also moreish and which I tend not have ib the house, e.g. peanuts. Probably the salt.

But I suspect different people react differently to different intakes

Absolutely.

Just been reading the 4 Hour Body, Been on the diet for almost 2 whole weeks now, and feel so much better for it.

As for the sugar thing, he has a couple of interesting sounding tricks which you might like, basically to do with the way your body links sugar load to smell, allows you to do some nifty reprogramming apparently.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Alternative-to-Dieting.pdf

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Just been reading the 4 Hour Body,

How does that work?

Do he suggest you outsource your eating to the Indian sub-continent? Drop ship you bodily excretions direct from the supermarket?

[MrPin]

Could be a point. I do love red meat though !!

Another example could be breast milk. Very high in sugar.

You probably should not be drinking this at your age!

[Steppenpig]

Problem is there are two camps in my opinion...

It seems diet is one of the few things where experience seems to count for nothing, why put your faith in people who have never had to seriously face the challenge of serious weight reduction. The low fat mantra is so deeply ingrained in our minds that it becomes the total focus of any effort, I know I was in that mind set for years, didn't eat an ounce of fat, but what I did do was stuff my face with rice, pasta, bread.

The wierd thing is, how unwilling people are to contemplate the options. By some really wierd karmic coincidence, just as I decided to give up sugar a couple of years ago, my mother and sister, neither who had previously particularly sweet tooths, got addicted themselves, and blew up like balloons practically overnight. Now i can no longer suggest to them that they cut down a bit on their sugar intake, because I feel like I'm starting to sound like some sort of crank. It's as difficult as trying to convince people that house prices are too high (not that I do that, but so I've heard).

Similarly, whenever there's a programme on TV, even if it's in favour of fats, or some alternative diet, they always wheel out some medical or nutritionist expert who wheels out the standard mantra "fat bad, carbs good" or "you have to consume less calories than you expend" ( which is perfectly true of course, but it's just easier with some diets than others). It just amazes me is that these experts have presumably never experimented themselves with any unconventional diets at all. Now I assume all people don't react the same as me, but at the same time, I can't be unique, and I noticed the benefits of going sugar free within a couple of days. Certain other "quirky" diets, like "boiled eggs" also have immediate effects. Why are there no respected experts that give it a try themselves?

[Nuggets Mahoney]

It's as difficult as trying to convince people that house prices are too high (not that I do that, but so I've heard).

Easily dismissed as being the ravings of amateur economists who aren't qualified to express an opinion.

It's worth bearing in mind that, in the scheme of things, it is arguable that the fad diet is the cr@p we've started to eat in large volumes only over the last few decades.

[Steppenpig]

As for the sugar thing, he has a couple of interesting sounding tricks which you might like, basically to do with the way your body links sugar load to smell, allows you to do some nifty reprogramming apparently.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Alternative-to-Dieting.pdf

That's an interesting article. Possibly explains why adults start to like "unpleasant" foods, like cheese, beer, wine, just by consuming them often enough. Is there a connection between the article and the book (4 hour body) , or why are the bundled together?

[RichB]

That's an interesting article. Possibly explains why adults start to like "unpleasant" foods, like cheese, beer, wine, just by consuming them often enough. Is there a connection between the article and the book (4 hour body) , or why are the bundled together?

Having read the book, these seem to have come to him as a result of his book and further research. There's a whole online community around it.

[The Eagle]

There is a potential paradox/ trade-off. Grass-based foods enable the planet to support billions of people. Those foods may also be shortening life-spans and making people sick.

Hemp seeds are an excellent source of protein (and good fats and fibre), hemp grows easily in most climates and could help support the diets of billions of people, but as long as there are tastier but unhealthier alternative options available I doubt it will become very popular.

[crashmonitor]

Now we have got the documentary, Horizon, BBC2, this Wednesday at 9.00pm..................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03t8r4h

Apparently the results are surprising. I like sugar and that is the obvious innocent. And saturated fat scares me and I don't like the taste. But I can see where this is going, the sugar twin is going to be f**ked and they are going to try and convince me that zero fat jelly beans are more evil than lard.

[Imminent_plunge]

Bear in mind that carbohydrate guidelines were written at a time when the general population were far more physically active. Unlikely to have a car, be working in manual jobs, housewives not having hoovers, fridges, washing machines, the need for carbs was much higher.

If I'm knackered, wiped out, I eat a carb rich meal but generally have cut 2/3 of carbs in the last couple of years. Have as much fat as I like but my body tells me when enough'a enough.

Beginning of 2012: size 16 and 12 and a half stone.

Beginning of 2014: size 8 skirts/trousers and 10 tops. 9 stone.

[Steppenpig]

Now we have got the documentary, Horizon, BBC2, this Wednesday at 9.00pm..................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03t8r4h

What's worse for us: sugar or fat?

To answer the hottest question in nutrition, twin doctors Chris and Xand Van Tulleken go on month long high-fat and high-sugar diets. The effects on their bodies are shocking and surprising.

But they also discover that in the debate about fat and sugar, the real enemy might have been hiding in plain sight.

I don't think Horizon is a creduble source of seriously researched and analysed knowledge these days, but no doubt it will be infotaining. It seems they're looking at the effects of high intakes rather than reducing intake, but I think the addictive efffects build up over years or even decades, so one month is not really going to reveal the fundamental problem. It will be interesting to see what they come up with though.

[Kurt Barlow]

http://www.ericcressey.com/healthy-food-options-why-you-should-never-take-nutrition-advice-from-your-government

A guy here says vegetable fat Bad....animal fat Good.

AND : http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/diet-mythology-ancel-keys-fat-fallacy.html

True for hydrogenated vegetable fats

Probably true to some degree for oils high in Omega 6 - corn, soya, cottonseed

Untrue for oils high in omega 3 (flax, rape, walnut) and Omega 9 (olive)

[crashmonitor]

Bear in mind that carbohydrate guidelines were written at a time when the general population were far more physically active. Unlikely to have a car, be working in manual jobs, housewives not having hoovers, fridges, washing machines, the need for carbs was much higher.

If I'm knackered, wiped out, I eat a carb rich meal but generally have cut 2/3 of carbs in the last couple of years. Have as much fat as I like but my body tells me when enough'a enough.

Beginning of 2012: size 16 and 12 and a half stone.

Beginning of 2014: size 8 skirts/trousers and 10 tops. 9 stone.

I live my life pretty much 1950s style and walk everywhere (the car usually stays at home except for business use) so I do rely on carbs. I wasn't working yesterday and walked 26 miles. So obviously sugar doesnt have any effect on my weight and my body fat ratio is sometimes sub 10%.. Have a family history of high cholesterol and heart disease and a cholesterol level that easily shifts from 4 to 7 with the slightest saturated fat intake. Switching to sugars for me was an attempt to keep my cholesterol down but no doubt the sugar is doing me damage in other ways.

[scrappycocco]

I eat one block of kerry's gold unsalted butter a day and quite a bit of mct oil.

Only grass fed organic meat.

Only sockeye salmon.

Dark chocolate.

Low toxin coffee.

Organic vegetables where possible but its bloody hard with frozen stuff.

Try to avoid fruits but the crisp freshness of a good apple is very nice.

Don't use anything toxic to cook with.

[LC1]

True for hydrogenated vegetable fats

Probably true to some degree for oils high in Omega 6 - corn, soya, cottonseed

Untrue for oils high in omega 3 (flax, rape, walnut) and Omega 9 (olive)

Exactly. There is so much oversimplification when it comes to fats in our diet, excepting some small nods to the potential benefits of olive oil and fish oils etc. Other than that is still seems to be fats = bad, especially animal fats.

[LC1]

I live my life pretty much 1950s style and walk everywhere (the car usually stays at home except for business use) so I do rely on carbs. I wasn't working yesterday and walked 26 miles. So obviously sugar doesnt have any effect on my weight and my body fat ratio is sometimes sub 10%.. Have a family history of high cholesterol and heart disease and a cholesterol level that easily shifts from 4 to 7 with the slightest saturated fat intake. Switching to sugars for me was an attempt to keep my cholesterol down but no doubt the sugar is doing me damage in other ways.

Not a scientist myself, but based on things I've been reading cholesterol is a much more complex beast than commonly presumed. Cutting down on your overall cholesterol too much can be detrimental to your health, so best to take those measurements with a pinch of salt, imo.

[LC1]

I eat one block of kerry's gold unsalted butter a day and quite a bit of mct oil.

Only grass fed organic meat.

Only sockeye salmon.

Dark chocolate.

Low toxin coffee.

Organic vegetables where possible but its bloody hard with frozen stuff.

Try to avoid fruits but the crisp freshness of a good apple is very nice.

Don't use anything toxic to cook with.

Do you mean the size you get in cafes & restaurants for putting on your roll, or the 250g blocks from the supermarket?!