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New Hillsborough Disaster Files Found By Police

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http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/new-hillsborough-disaster-files-found-by-police-1-5797792

The police force involved in the initial investigation into the the Hillsborough disaster is trawling through its archives after finding new documents relating to the tragedy at its headquarters.

West Midlands Police, which examined South Yorkshire Police’s handling of the disaster, said the documents, some of which are understood to be held on computer disks, have been passed to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

In a statement, the West Midlands force said ‘recent unrelated searches’ of secure storage areas in Birmingham had ‘uncovered two items of material related to Hillsborough’.

The statement added: “These documents have been passed to the IPCC to help in their investigation of the Hillsborough disaster.

“As a result of the find, West Midlands Police has announced a rigorous, systematic search of its archives which is expected to take around three months.

“Specially trained police search officers will scrutinise storage areas at Lloyd House, Nechells Green police station where the force’s investigation of South Yorkshire Police was focused, and other buildings.”

Do they really need to use specially trained police officers to locate files?

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http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/new-hillsborough-disaster-files-found-by-police-1-5797792

Do they really need to use specially trained police officers to locate files?

Yes, and specially trained sniffer dogs.

And plenty of overtime.

It's OK, the public pays for it all in the end. The bad policing, the cover-up, the inquiry, the investigation. No policeman will be harmed during the investigation.

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Guest eight

Yes, and specially trained sniffer dogs.

And plenty of overtime.

It's OK, the public pays for it all in the end. The bad policing, the cover-up, the inquiry, the investigation. No policeman will be harmed during the investigation.

Are Hillsborough and Steven Laurence the only two crimes currently being investigated or something?

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Are Hillsborough and Steven Laurence the only two crimes currently being investigated or something?

No, Jimmy Savile is in deep trouble when the plod finally catch up with him.

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http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/new-hillsborough-disaster-files-found-by-police-1-5797792

Do they really need to use specially trained police officers to locate files?

How many files do you think these guys would find if they weren't "specially trained" ?

My guess is they've had a month long course in checking down the back of filing cabinets while resisting the temptation of decade old furry chocolate.

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Whist clearly the police had a big part to play in this tragedy, it now seems to be almost an unspeakable to act to remind people that on that day there were also a large portion of drunken, yobbish, oafs who significantly contributed towards the tragedy.

No there wasn't :angry:

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Certainly no more and no worse than any other match, even today.

Reckless drivers don't cause accidents everyday. They will cause chaos and destruction eventually.

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There clearly was. 100's off pissed up fans without tickets all pushing to get in. It hardly helped did it, along with everything else, it was one part of the cocktail that caused such a loss of life.

Perhaps. The problem is though the police lied, lied and lied again to smear innocent victims (this seems to be a common occurrence with the police doesn't it?) and thus people can hardly be blamed for taking everything they say with great ******ing shovelfuls of salt.

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There clearly was. 100's off pissed up fans without tickets all pushing to get in. It hardly helped did it, along with everything else, it was one part of the cocktail that caused such a loss of life.

Really?

The Taylor Report

Was Drunkenness a Major Factor in the Crisis at the Turnstiles?

196. Of those who arrived at 2.30 pm or after, very many had been drinking at public houses or had

brought drink from home or an off-licence. I am satisfied on the evidence, however, that the great majority

were not drunk nor even the worse for drink. The police witnesses varied on this. Some described a high

proportion as drunk, as "lager-louts" or even as "animals". Others described a generally normal crowd with an

unco-operative minority who had drunk too much. In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss

of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were

youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating

the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay

and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in

describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all

anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm

or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those

assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the

unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined

turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles.

197. Superintendent Marshall and other officers criticised the crowd as unco-operative because police

exhortations to stop pushing and to ease back were not heeded. How could they be? In that crush most people

had no control over their movements at all. Two incidents involving police horses illustrate the point. One

horse was found afterwards to have cigarette burns on its rump. Clearly that was the despicable work of a

hooligan whether in drink or not. However, there were also eyewitness accounts of a horse being physically

lifted off its feet by the crowd. That occurred, as the police accepted, without malice or intent but as an

involuntary consequence of crowd pressure which those by the horse's flanks could not resist any more than the

horse itself.

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not

possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police

estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares"

during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area.

Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not

consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of

evidence.

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at

a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing

pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could

account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40

pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses

by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed

through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of

10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.

However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film

and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644

passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst

gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering

through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be

rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there

would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do

suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

Liverpool Supporters at Away Matches

205. The South Yorkshire police prepared a dossier of reports on the behaviour of Liverpool fans at away

matches with the object of showing a pattern of troublesome behaviour by large numbers either without tickets

or with forged tickets. Without setting out the whole history, it can be summarised as follows.

206. On three occasions Liverpool fans without tickets were allowed into all-ticket matches upon payment.

(At Watford on 13 February 1988, 1,500 were admitted; at Southampton on 24 September 1988, 150 were

admitted; at Southampton again on 12 December 1988, 750 were admitted.) At Norwich on 1 April 1989,

Liverpool supporters arrived without tickets but 1,272 tickets had been returned and fans from both Liverpool

and Norwich were allowed to buy them for cash. A similar situation occurred at Wimbledon on 13 May 1989.

There were six other occasions from 1986 to date, including the Cup finals of 1986 and 1989, when numbers of

Liverpool supporters turned up without tickets or otherwise behaved badly.

207. Four points must be noted, however. On none of the occasions when ticketless fans were admitted for

payment was the match a sell-out. There was therefore room in the ground on each occasion. At a sell-out fans

might not expect to be allowed in, even for payment. Secondly, no trouble of the kind alleged was encountered

at the 1988 semi-final when Liverpool visited Hillsborough. Thirdly, Liverpool visited Hillsborough again in

January 1989 without any trouble. Finally, no forged tickets were in use on 15 April apart from three crude

photocopies.

No Conspiracy

208. I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this

occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the "conspiracy"

theory. I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did not arrive

as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit

any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much,

certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers

packed into the small area outside the turnstiles.

Perhaps you have a better source but it strikes me that you're parrotting the police/biggoted Man U fans version of events rather than the independent enquiry version. To the extent that drunken/ticketless fans were part of the cocktail they were the paper umbrella on a rocket fuel strength long island iced tea.

The disaster would've happened irrespective of drink or ticketless fans, the ground was inherently dangerous and the police lost control on the day.

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Clearly the police were most to blame along with a number of other factors.

However i also went to many games during that period - and to say the fans on that day had 0.00% responsibility for what happened is something i just cannot accept.

Liverpool fans did - and still do to a much lesser extent - have a fairly poor reputation for a number of reasons.

Just last year i was at the game against Liverpool with hearts. We were warned by a number of locals prior to the game about numerous fake tickets that are sold outside the ground on a regular basis.

They certainly did not cause the tragedy on that day. However i would be extremely shocked if the had absolutely no impact on the events at all.

Good to see the police finally being brought some sort of justice though. Although as per usual their 'punishment' is totally different to what us normal folk would expect to receive for being mostly responsible for such an event occurring.

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Being likened to a United Fan is about as low as it gets.

Sorry, but I do find that it's the Mancs with an axe to grind that tend to spout the "scouse scum killed their own" lines.

.... I am not anti-Liverpool or trying to be confrontational, but I simply refuse to believe, as a personal belief, for a second that a load of revved up, drunken, football fans didn't contribute to the clearly perilous situation.

Fair enough and I'm not naive enough to believe that any group large group of fans (football or otherwise) are saints.

But the point is that nothing unusual happened on that day. There were probably a handful of fans without tickets hoping to blag their way in but far too few to make any difference. There were undoubtedly a minority who'd had too much to drink but there's no evidence that their behaviour had an effect on the events of the day.

The fact is that at most large events the vast majority of the crowd are going to arrive in the 30 minutes leading up to the start, the disaster was a result of the ground not being able to keep up with this flow and the failure of the police to manage it.

Football game, pop concert, open air mass, if you put that number of people in those circumstances whatever the event you'd have the same result.

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I am not disputing the facts that the police were incompetent and the ground may have been unsafe (although I think it had held semi-finals on dozens of occasions before). I am not anti-Liverpool or trying to be confrontational, but I simply refuse to believe, as a personal belief, for a second that a load of revved up, drunken, football fans didn't contribute to the clearly perilous situation.

But you are disputing the facts, and without any knowledge of your own.

You can't use a hunch to dismiss the findings of people who sifted the actual evidence. That's what the Daily Mail is for.

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I hope that the enquiry give consideration to the ground itself.

That fence at the front of the stand should never have been approved.

It was far too strong and did not have any panic gates to allow the crowd to spill out on to the pitch.

Cardiff City at that time had a wire mesh fence with flood gates. In extremis, the crowd could push the fence over and occasionally did. The Police patrolled the fence threatening anyone who touched it with a rap across the knuckles. Seemed to work well and was intrinsically safe.

So, the enquiry has to further look and find just who was responsible for such a strong fence at Hillsborough.

And here is the problem. Someone very high up was critical of 'pitch invasions', regardless of their cause.

Will the enquiry follow this up?

Don't hold your breath.

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But you are disputing the facts, and without any knowledge of your own.

You can't use a hunch to dismiss the findings of people who sifted the actual evidence. That's what the Daily Mail is for.

You mean like the inquest where everyone was dead by 3.15 and just ignored everything else?

How can they have sifted all the evidence when the police have now found "new" evidence?

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  • 243 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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