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Edanmount

Epc - How Accurate Are They

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I'm a real believer that house prices are over-priced - and what I'm seeing at the moment is that older properties are sitting on the market for months or years.

Sometimes the prices are truly delusional.

Anyway - what I've noticed is that the older houses have terrible EPC ratings - Ds, Es and Fs (maybe Gs too) and newer properties have higher ratings.

This is in Angus, Scotland where sandstone buildings are common (no cavity to insulate) often with dormer windows (harder to insulate the loft).

Anyway - I've been trying to work out whether the EPC ratings are truly accurate or not.

Some of the kWh ratings are just nonsense - 3-bed flat, 100 m2 would cost over £2500 a year to heat.

I've seen new builds - detached or semi-detached that are larger with estimated costs of £500 per year.

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

So, maybe the collect wisdom of HPC can help out - there doesn't appear to much online about how accurate the EPC is.

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I reckon they're only good as a comparison. I.e. houses the same size will be cheaper to heat as a 'C' than a 'D.'

That said, when I sold up in 2011, the EPC was more like a tick-box list. Double glazing, tick, The fact it was 15 years old, metal framed (not PVC) and was basically knackered wasn't mentioned.

Type of boiler, combi? Tick. Standard or manufacturer's name not a consideration.

Edited by deflation

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In my experience they have very little practical impact on your energy bills. For example, you can get marked down if you don't thermostatic radiator valves. This might make a difference if you are a single person living in a massive house, but for the average family crammed in a 2 up 2 down, it makes no difference at all. So it is more a tick box list of things, the fewer boxes ticked, the lower the rating.

Where we currently live is a G I think, the lowest. I have never lived in a house that is cheaper to run from an energy POV.

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I treat them as an indicator rather than an acurate measure of anything. The most telling thing about them in my experience is whether they are in the listing on rightmove or not, if they are not, the place is full of holes the wind blows in through and the estate agent hopes you wont ask about it.

To get the rating up the landlord can just stick some 'energy efficient' lightbulbs in, so its easily manipulated.

Use it in combination with the other information, some places just won't heat up as the heat goes straight through the walls but they might have a good rating due to a combi boiler or something. Some listings have the entire epc complete with description which is worth a read, the rating alone won't tell you much.

I believe it is a legal requirement for a letting agent to show you the epc before you sign up for a tenancy, beware if they seem reluctant to do so.

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Oddly enough, I was talking about this a few days ago with some friends. Lots of the ludicrous asking priced houses in Swansea have truly terrible EPC ratings. Even if you spend money on them the rating that you can bump them up to is often still rubbish.

Basically they are big old houses with ratings down in the E and Fs. I have seen quite a few Gs as well - but I could be fantasising :D

I have heard numerous stories of people wanting to sell their houses now because their last winter fuel bills were scary. Ironically, these are often the houses that the EAs stick on for nearer 400K and above. I have heard people talk of having over £1,000 per quarter heating bills during last winter.

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Oddly enough, I was talking about this a few days ago with some friends. Lots of the ludicrous asking priced houses in Swansea have truly terrible EPC ratings. Even if you spend money on them the rating that you can bump them up to is often still rubbish.

Basically they are big old houses with ratings down in the E and Fs. I have seen quite a few Gs as well - but I could be fantasising :D

I have heard numerous stories of people wanting to sell their houses now because their last winter fuel bills were scary. Ironically, these are often the houses that the EAs stick on for nearer 400K and above. I have heard people talk of having over £1,000 per quarter heating bills during last winter.

A rating of 'G' is applied to a house with no roof! Scepticism aside, a 'G' rated house would be horrendous to heat.

Anything from E upwards is mostly the same, but then I've never seen an 'A'. It's right that switching the lightbulbs can bump you up a grade. Insulation in the loft is just obvious.

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It does appear to be a tick box exercise.

Ok - my experiences of EPC

we have an open fire in one reception room - using it saves us over £400 a year in gas

....marked down as "bad" because we could burn coal :angry:

loft insulation not thick enough ? why ? because he had to guess what type of insulation was under the chipboard floor :blink:

brand new "rock" front door marked down because even though It said "rock" on it he had to guess whether it was insulated

LED`s fitted in 70% of fittings - Good - even though we could easily change them back

None condensing boiler - bad - even though it had just passed a service with flying colours

The "nutter" suggested several thousands of investment - for very small returns which we worked out would take over 60 years to repay

Of course try and find a boiler that will last 65 years

..................absolute crock of shi8

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we have an open fire in one reception room - using it saves us over £400 a year in gas....marked down as "bad" because we could burn coal :angry:

loft insulation not thick enough ? why ? because he had to guess what type of insulation was under the chipboard floor :blink:

brand new "rock" front door marked down because even though It said "rock" on it he had to guess whether it was insulated

LED`s fitted in 70% of fittings - Good - even though we could easily change them back

None condensing boiler - bad - even though it had just passed a service with flying colours

The "nutter" suggested several thousands of investment - for very small returns which we worked out would take over 60 years to repay

Points to note:

  • I assume your coal isn't free?

  • Loft insulation is now advised to be over 9" thick. If you have floor boards down chances are it's only 4-6 inches, plus it's compressed making it less efficient.

  • He wont know everything about every front door. If it's a new PVC door he should have assumed it was insulated.

  • The boiler - just because it's been serviced it doesn't mean it's efficient.

  • LEDs - they have to assume you will leave the LED bulbs in... it's not they are going to wear out.... in your lifetime.

  • It's their job to advise of possible improvements, if they are honest they'll advise of ROI timescales, but remember energy prices can go up as well as up.

EPC is largely about measuring the surface area of the walls, windows and loft and applying a weighting to each based on the type of windows and insulation fitted. A formula is then used to calculate the overall EPC rating, including adjustments for heating and lighting.

It's very scientific, and follows strict rules. Usually the man will have to measure everything... doors, walls, windows etc. The have to draw out a plan of the house "folded out" showing all the walls. The exception will be if you are on an estate where all the houses are made from the same plans... then he may already have all the plans fro a previous job and just needs to apply the weightings.

My brother-in-law does it.

Edited by RufflesTheGuineaPig

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It depends on the occupant rather than the house. Our large bungalow had a terrible rating, annual bills are around £700 per year. Some people will exceed that, even if like the Camerons you add mini wind turbines and solar tilles, because they are probably greedy on consumption.

Edited by crashmonitor

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Guest eight

[*]Loft insulation is now advised to be over 9" thick. If you have floor boards down chances are it's only 4-6 inches, plus it's compressed making it less efficient.

Sounds like they're trying to do the same with houses as they do with cars. Complete renewal of the stock every ten years based on ever changing and spuriously contrived standards.

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Conservation of heat will be a big factor in the future in determining what home to buy.....there is a simple test you can do, heat a home to a certain temperature say 19 degrees C when the outside temperature is at a certain temperature say zero....a. see how long it takes to reach a comfortable living heat with an average boiler and average sized radiator for the room size. b. switch the heating off completely and see how long it takes for the temperature to fall say overnight........in a good home with good heat (and sound) insulation can still be 13 to 15 degrees inside temp the next morning.....higher temp means less cool air to heat meaning lower costs and more fuel efficiency. ;)

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Points to note:

  • I assume your coal isn't free?

  • Loft insulation is now advised to be over 9" thick. If you have floor boards down chances are it's only 4-6 inches, plus it's compressed making it less efficient.

  • He wont know everything about every front door. If it's a new PVC door he should have assumed it was insulated.

  • The boiler - just because it's been serviced it doesn't mean it's efficient.

  • LEDs - they have to assume you will leave the LED bulbs in... it's not they are going to wear out.... in your lifetime.

  • It's their job to advise of possible improvements, if they are honest they'll advise of ROI timescales, but remember energy prices can go up as well as up.

EPC is largely about measuring the surface area of the walls, windows and loft and applying a weighting to each based on the type of windows and insulation fitted. A formula is then used to calculate the overall EPC rating, including adjustments for heating and lighting.

It's very scientific, and follows strict rules. Usually the man will have to measure everything... doors, walls, windows etc. The have to draw out a plan of the house "folded out" showing all the walls. The exception will be if you are on an estate where all the houses are made from the same plans... then he may already have all the plans fro a previous job and just needs to apply the weightings.

My brother-in-law does it.

Whilst I agree with what you say to a point - the EPC doesn't take into consideration actual U values for the walls, floors, roof and windows of the houses it measures.

At no point on an EPC have I read something along the lines of "warped windows are causing drafts - consider resealing to save energy."

Fixing easy leaks like that will save more money than upgrading from single to double-glazed- but which will feature on the EPC?

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I saw one EPC survey which recommended fitting PV solar panels to the north facing slope of a roof to "improve" the rating. I bet the surveyor had an interest in the local PV fitters.

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Whilst I agree with what you say to a point - the EPC doesn't take into consideration actual U values for the walls, floors, roof and windows of the houses it measures.

At no point on an EPC have I read something along the lines of "warped windows are causing drafts - consider resealing to save energy."

Fixing easy leaks like that will save more money than upgrading from single to double-glazed- but which will feature on the EPC?

When I said actual U-values - I meanr that they assume that the walls have a U-value of 1 or whatever - but don't actually test.

In my experience, the worst property to heat was one without any neighbour living below (flat empty) so I couldn't benefit from his heat losses. :)

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Points to note:

  • I assume your coal isn't free?

  • Loft insulation is now advised to be over 9" thick. If you have floor boards down chances are it's only 4-6 inches, plus it's compressed making it less efficient.

  • He wont know everything about every front door. If it's a new PVC door he should have assumed it was insulated.

  • The boiler - just because it's been serviced it doesn't mean it's efficient.

  • LEDs - they have to assume you will leave the LED bulbs in... it's not they are going to wear out.... in your lifetime.

  • It's their job to advise of possible improvements, if they are honest they'll advise of ROI timescales, but remember energy prices can go up as well as up.

EPC is largely about measuring the surface area of the walls, windows and loft and applying a weighting to each based on the type of windows and insulation fitted. A formula is then used to calculate the overall EPC rating, including adjustments for heating and lighting.

It's very scientific, and follows strict rules. Usually the man will have to measure everything... doors, walls, windows etc. The have to draw out a plan of the house "folded out" showing all the walls. The exception will be if you are on an estate where all the houses are made from the same plans... then he may already have all the plans fro a previous job and just needs to apply the weightings.

My brother-in-law does it.

Errrrrrr........

well we burn logs............

coal is natural as well but doesn't exist for us, although maybe it should?

the "man" who did our EPC was a t*t who was more interested in how many "water using" appliances we had

the fact that you are defending this "tax" scam who`s "implementers" clearly have "personal" agendas does you no favours

my house has "stood" for over 100 years..............

what environmental impact would be "created" by flattening it and then rebuilding it???????????????? and who do you expect to pay for it? Modern houses are "Sh*t" - DIY forums are full of "complaints" from people who "own failing" houses

"E" friendly cars for example have a "HUGE" impact once you "add in" all the "creation" and "disposal" costs!!!!!!!!!!

...............Hope you don`t have a "prious" that is over 5 years old - because you will soon see just how "expensive" those "wonderful "batteries" really are :o

Get real........

Your Brother-in-law is "earning" a very "lucrative" crust "preying" on the very "victims" that this site is all about..........

I take it he used to do "HIP2`s too???????

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Have a house I used to rent out and had an epc done for it ... no cavity wall nor dg at that point and got (just looked)

a 'D' rating . Got dg in thruout plus cavity wall insulation plus led bulbs (not for the epc) and got it re-rated by

some one else, which gave me an 'E'.

The later one was with a rics bod .

The loft has double layers of fibreglass and maybe less than 1/2 boarded to allow sh*t to be placed in it , he said the

rules were he had to assume none.However the improvements section did not include putting loft insulation in.

So if you want to get a reasonable epc done, dont go with rics.

I would generally agree with the other comments that it is a tick box exercise with little actual relevance .

rockhopper

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the fact that you are defending this "tax" scam who`s "implementers" clearly have "personal" agendas does you no favours

I thought EPCs were another pointless euro-regulation?

Surely the easier and simpler route would be to require disclosure of the last three year's utility bills when a house is offered for sale. You can't really argue with history.

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I saw one EPC survey which recommended fitting PV solar panels to the north facing slope of a roof to "improve" the rating. I bet the surveyor had an interest in the local PV fitters.

The one on my house suggested cavity wall insulation, even though it has solid stone walls.

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I believe it is a legal requirement for a letting agent to show you the epc before you sign up for a tenancy, beware if they seem reluctant to do so.

No. It is a legal requirement to show an EPC if you are asked for one. If its not asked for there is no reason to give it. Of course the Local Tradings Standards departments allegedly insist all estate and letting agents must have one on file for every property on their books. Please note and bear in mind that all estate and lettings agents charge more for an EPC than they cost them, this may be why they say that tradings standards insist they have one on file for all properties on their books.

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I thought EPCs were another pointless euro-regulation?

Surely the easier and simpler route would be to require disclosure of the last three year's utility bills when a house is offered for sale. You can't really argue with history.

I "sooooooooooooo" agree with you - But stand by my comments............

.................."scam!"

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I "sooooooooooooo" agree with you - But stand by my comments............

.................."scam!"

For the love of god, put down the quotation marks.

Edited by chronyx

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No. It is a legal requirement to show an EPC if you are asked for one. If its not asked for there is no reason to give it.

That's a rather pedantic distinction!

So ask for one. If they squirm walk away.

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  • 243 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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