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Uk Trapped In 'vicious Spiral' Of Falling Wages And Depressed Investment

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jun/03/ilo-uk-falling-wages-investment

Britain must do more to get companies investing and banks lending if it wants to turn around a stagnant labour market that has seen long-term unemployment double since the financial crisis began.

That is the warning from the International Labour Organisation (ILO), which said in its annual World of Work report that the UK is trapped in the "vicious spiral" of falling real wages and depressed investment and faces a very real threat of rising child poverty.

At 7.8% the UK unemployment rate is relatively low in comparison to other EU economies, but the ILO notes that it has failed to come down for almost a year. Unemployment is also well above the pre-crisis level of 5.2% at the end of 2007. Any growth in employment has only been enough to accommodate a growing labour force, and has not made up for jobs lost when the economy faltered.

The author of the ILO report, Raymond Torres, said the UK faced serious long-term threats if it fails to give more help to vulnerable groups, such as single parents, to get back into work.

No point in working if you can "earn" more in benefits. Why be productive when it doesn't pay?

Low wages only work if you can get tax credits.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jun/03/ilo-uk-falling-wages-investment

No point in working if you can "earn" more in benefits. Why be productive when it doesn't pay?

Low wages only work if you can get tax credits.

They just dont get it do they.There really is no point being productive for most people.In fact the best way to get a better standard of living is work less and save on not paying more fuel tax etc.

Family 1 child.Flog your guts out in a hell hole for 50 hours a week for £28 more than working 24 hours in the local chip shop.

Take fuel costs off etc much better off working part time.

As for investing,,why invest in a currency thats being trashed.My capital is being used for productive investment by companies.Just they happen to be in India.

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25 hours per week at £7 per hour is worth £15,000 in housing benefit plus £16,000 spends plus the £9,000 wages if you have a non-working wife and three kids ... £40,000 cash so would need to earn £70,000 and the vast majority (98%?) could never dream of a job paying this amount.

Ed Balls on Ch4 News tonight saying that in government he'd reprioritise within existing budgets - and one priority would be more money into tax credits!

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And now an education is expensively pointless.

Where is aspiration?

I did not think the disease that wiped out the human race would be cultural.

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As long as the few at the top are gathering in their windfall, their credits, their entitlements, growing their pile, they are quite happy to spread a small proportion of their wealth to the less well off knowing full well that whatever they get will filter back up to them again eventually......killing your customer is not the name of the game, keeping them suppressed and wanting pays better dividends. ;)

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No point in working if you can "earn" more in benefits. Why be productive when it doesn't pay?

How many people on HPC have actually taken the step of jacking in their day job and going down to the benefits office for the huge pile of cash that must surely be waiting for them there?

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25 hours per week at £7 per hour is worth £15,000 in housing benefit plus £16,000 spends plus the £9,000 wages if you have a non-working wife and three kids ... £40,000 cash so would need to earn £70,000 and the vast majority (98%?) could never dream of a job paying this amount.

Yup, I don't understand why some people I know bother to work in low-paid jobs when they would have a far better quality of life on benefits with an only marginal reduction in income.

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How many people on HPC have actually taken the step of jacking in their day job and going down to the benefits office for the huge pile of cash that must surely be waiting for them there?

There are no huge piles of cash at the benefit office....but there are huge piles of cash out there for the taking available to those in the know.... ;)

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How many people on HPC have actually taken the step of jacking in their day job and going down to the benefits office for the huge pile of cash that must surely be waiting for them there?

So weak.

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They just dont get it do they.There really is no point being productive for most people.In fact the best way to get a better standard of living is work less and save on not paying more fuel tax etc.

Family 1 child.Flog your guts out in a hell hole for 50 hours a week for £28 more than working 24 hours in the local chip shop.

Take fuel costs off etc much better off working part time.

I think you're close to the point here. It isn't just fuel costs though - let's not forget housing costs.

It's these expensive basics that are massive aspiration killers. I'm in my late 20s and have noticed the lots of my peers have recently been seeking alternative lifestyles.

Several have jacked in work to go travelling.

A few have gone for totally different careers (leaving boring service jobs in the city to become teachers)

One is even buying some land and is planning to become self sufficient.

Several have jacked their jobs in to go freelance or setup their own businesses.

I'm in a similar situation. The pain of working 40 hours a week for someone else just isn't rewarding enough. It's not as though that house I aspire to own is getting any easier to save for - in fact it's getting harder, my commuting costs will get worse, and my job will just sap more of my time.

My parents stuck jobs out for years and years because each month they were getting richer. Most people in their 20s aren't getting richer. Work quite often isn't rewarding enough.

Edited by Superted187

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I think you're close to the point here. It isn't just fuel costs though - let's not forget housing costs.

It's these expensive basics that are massive aspiration killers. I'm in my late 20s and have noticed the lots of my peers have recently been seeking alternative lifestyles.

Several have jacked in work to go travelling.

A few have gone for totally different careers (leaving boring service jobs in the city to become teachers)

One is even buying some land and is planning to become self sufficient.

Several have jacked their jobs in to go freelance or setup their own businesses.

I'm in a similar situation. The pain of working 40 hours a week for someone else just isn't rewarding enough. It's not as though that house I aspire to own is getting any easier to save for - in fact it's getting harder, my commuting costs will get worse, and my job will just sap more of my time.

My parents stuck jobs out for years and years because each month they were getting richer. Most people in their 20s aren't getting richer. Work quite often isn't rewarding enough.

Nice summary.

The question of "why am I bothering to work?" didn't exist thirty years ago. If you worked you got a much better standard of living than of you didn't, you bought your own house, went on holidays, and had a comfortable retirement.

Nowadays working on an average wage doesn't bring you those things, it means you have enough to keep going in your present circumstance which benefits or a serious cut in outgoings by adopting an alternative lifestyle would also allow plus they would give you all the time you want to pursue your real interests. So why make all of that effort?

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I think you're close to the point here. It isn't just fuel costs though - let's not forget housing costs.

It's these expensive basics that are massive aspiration killers. I'm in my late 20s and have noticed the lots of my peers have recently been seeking alternative lifestyles.

Several have jacked in work to go travelling.

A few have gone for totally different careers (leaving boring service jobs in the city to become teachers)

One is even buying some land and is planning to become self sufficient.

Several have jacked their jobs in to go freelance or setup their own businesses.

I'm in a similar situation. The pain of working 40 hours a week for someone else just isn't rewarding enough. It's not as though that house I aspire to own is getting any easier to save for - in fact it's getting harder, my commuting costs will get worse, and my job will just sap more of my time.

My parents stuck jobs out for years and years because each month they were getting richer. Most people in their 20s aren't getting richer. Work quite often isn't rewarding enough.

In days of old, you worked and popped your cash in the bank...they paid you interest.

When you retired, you called down on your pot.

doent happen now.

Capital formation is dead.

Free, valueless cash has replaced the savings of people, savings worked for and therefore having value...QE requires no work whatsoever to create it.

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25 hours per week at £7 per hour is worth £15,000 in housing benefit plus £16,000 spends plus the £9,000 wages if you have a non-working wife and three kids ... £40,000 cash so would need to earn £70,000 and the vast majority (98%?) could never dream of a job paying this amount.

I went to http://www.entitledto.co.uk/ , put in figures for 2 parents, 3 kids (2-9), 1 worker doing 25 hours for £9k. The results are below:

Entitlement Per year

Tax Credits £11,552.95 (£221.56/week) Working tax credit and child tax credit.

Council Tax Support £136.65 (£2.62/week) Your full Council Tax bill of £25.03 per week will be reduced to £22.41 per week because of your entitlement to Council Tax Support. Our calculation is based on you receiving £54.40 from working tax credit and an Income of £167.16 from child tax credit.

Housing Benefit £8,275.35 (£159.14/week) We have calculated your entitlement using Local Housing Allowance rules. Our calculation is based on you receiving £54.40 from working tax credit and an Income of £167.16 from child tax credit.

Other income entitlements

Child Benefit £2,449.20 (£47.10/week)

Total Entitlements £22,414.15 (£430.42 weekly)

Now, Child benefit would be available anyway, so the total is effectively ~20k on top of wages.

Now.. if you put wages as £20k, that figure drops to £15k (ignoring child benefit). Which would make you better off, although the marginal rate is pretty savage.

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So weak.

I've claimed benefits a few times and it's a pretty hideous process. Was actually glad when the higher end taper for tax credits was removed and we didn't have to worry about getting the forms right.

I think that there are serious problems in the UK - overpriced housing, expensive education, static wages to name a few - but the idea that people can easily choose to live on benefits just looks like propaganda to me.

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I've claimed benefits a few times and it's a pretty hideous process. Was actually glad when the higher end taper for tax credits was removed and we didn't have to worry about getting the forms right.

I think that there are serious problems in the UK - overpriced housing, expensive education, static wages to name a few - but the idea that people can easily choose to live on benefits just looks like propaganda to me.

If you are a single person without dependants or a recognised disability then the benefits system is your enemy as you are made to jump through hoops for a pittance. In saying I know people who should pack in work I am thinking about single mothers who would be comfortable on benefits and not need to fit in an underpaid job as well.

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I think you're close to the point here. It isn't just fuel costs though - let's not forget housing costs.

It's these expensive basics that are massive aspiration killers. I'm in my late 20s and have noticed the lots of my peers have recently been seeking alternative lifestyles.

Several have jacked in work to go travelling.

A few have gone for totally different careers (leaving boring service jobs in the city to become teachers)

One is even buying some land and is planning to become self sufficient.

Several have jacked their jobs in to go freelance or setup their own businesses.

I'm in a similar situation. The pain of working 40 hours a week for someone else just isn't rewarding enough. It's not as though that house I aspire to own is getting any easier to save for - in fact it's getting harder, my commuting costs will get worse, and my job will just sap more of my time.

My parents stuck jobs out for years and years because each month they were getting richer. Most people in their 20s aren't getting richer. Work quite often isn't rewarding enough.

Very good points.....fewer now have access to good secure jobs for life with guaranteed benefits thrown in, where the job is varied and interesting, where promotion is there for those that choose to work for it, where people are valued for the job they do, where people feel they have a stake in the company they work for, where people that do well are rewarded and those that are not up to scratch after training are managed out so that they are free do work that is more suitable for them.......working hard is worth it when good work means better known future prospects. ;)

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Very good points.....fewer now have access to good secure jobs for life with guaranteed benefits thrown in, where the job is varied and interesting, where promotion is there for those that choose to work for it, where people are valued for the job they do, where people feel they have a stake in the company they work for, where people that do well are rewarded and those that are not up to scratch after training are managed out so that they are free do work that is more suitable for them.......working hard is worth it when good work means better known future prospects. ;)

Very true.When i was 21 i got a job in production with a big pharma company (GSK),,Ok it was shifts and boring a lot of the time.BUT i had even as a production worker a 1/40th final salary pension.I had free shares that became live after 5 years.I had share saves.I had even as a production worker a 5 stage pay increase with training etc.I bought a house and slowly became better off.

Thats all gone now for the young.Hence so many choosing the benefits route.Anyone with 2 children on tax credits in my local area now get more working in a shop or any other 24 hour job they can find than ANY factory job within 30 miles of here.

Thats why our productivity is falling,,nobody cares anymore,and why should they?.

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Very true.When i was 21 i got a job in production with a big pharma company (GSK),,Ok it was shifts and boring a lot of the time.BUT i had even as a production worker a 1/40th final salary pension.I had free shares that became live after 5 years.I had share saves.I had even as a production worker a 5 stage pay increase with training etc.I bought a house and slowly became better off.

Thats all gone now for the young.Hence so many choosing the benefits route.Anyone with 2 children on tax credits in my local area now get more working in a shop or any other 24 hour job they can find than ANY factory job within 30 miles of here.

Thats why our productivity is falling,,nobody cares anymore,and why should they?.

Tell fluffy

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Guest eight

Very good points.....fewer now have access to good secure jobs for life with guaranteed benefits thrown in, where the job is varied and interesting, where promotion is there for those that choose to work for it, where people are valued for the job they do, where people feel they have a stake in the company they work for, where people that do well are rewarded and those that are not up to scratch after training are managed out so that they are free do work that is more suitable for them.......working hard is worth it when good work means better known future prospects. ;)

The promotion thing is a good one. You hear these mythical tales of the guy who started off as the tea boy and ended up running the company. Now starting off as tea boy is a surefire way to guarantee you end your days working as a tea boy. It's almost as if doing a menial job taints you somehow.

Meanwhile the guy who ends up running the company came from running a completely different company in an entirely unrelated field. How he got his first gig running a company nobody quite knows.

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How many people on HPC have actually taken the step of jacking in their day job and going down to the benefits office for the huge pile of cash that must surely be waiting for them there?

Because the benefits systems favours specific groups of people quite admirably i.e. those that in the past took on large debts, the old, those with children. There are probably many people on here that do not fall into these categories, and would receive very little from the benefit system.

Edited by GradualCringe

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I went to http://www.entitledto.co.uk/ , put in figures for 2 parents, 3 kids (2-9), 1 worker doing 25 hours for £9k. The results are below:

Entitlement Per year

Tax Credits £11,552.95 (£221.56/week) Working tax credit and child tax credit.

Council Tax Support £136.65 (£2.62/week) Your full Council Tax bill of £25.03 per week will be reduced to £22.41 per week because of your entitlement to Council Tax Support. Our calculation is based on you receiving £54.40 from working tax credit and an Income of £167.16 from child tax credit.

Housing Benefit £8,275.35 (£159.14/week) We have calculated your entitlement using Local Housing Allowance rules. Our calculation is based on you receiving £54.40 from working tax credit and an Income of £167.16 from child tax credit.

Other income entitlements

Child Benefit £2,449.20 (£47.10/week)

Total Entitlements £22,414.15 (£430.42 weekly)

Now, Child benefit would be available anyway, so the total is effectively ~20k on top of wages.

Now.. if you put wages as £20k, that figure drops to £15k (ignoring child benefit). Which would make you better off, although the marginal rate is pretty savage.

:o

My wife and I dont take much more than that home. We have two kids and both work 37.5 hour weeks.

This is mental! :angry:

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I have improved on your assumption and switch that to single parent and a more expensive area and I got:£26974 for it, and that is before claiming things like DLA on dubious conditions. The HB component is the one that makes a lot of differences.

So, netting £30k in South East/London (£50k equivalent pre tax) is not that unusual.

I went to http://www.entitledto.co.uk/ , put in figures for 2 parents, 3 kids (2-9), 1 worker doing 25 hours for £9k. The results are below:

Entitlement Per year

Tax Credits £11,552.95 (£221.56/week) Working tax credit and child tax credit.

Council Tax Support £136.65 (£2.62/week) Your full Council Tax bill of £25.03 per week will be reduced to £22.41 per week because of your entitlement to Council Tax Support. Our calculation is based on you receiving £54.40 from working tax credit and an Income of £167.16 from child tax credit.

Housing Benefit £8,275.35 (£159.14/week) We have calculated your entitlement using Local Housing Allowance rules. Our calculation is based on you receiving £54.40 from working tax credit and an Income of £167.16 from child tax credit.

Other income entitlements

Child Benefit £2,449.20 (£47.10/week)

Total Entitlements £22,414.15 (£430.42 weekly)

Now, Child benefit would be available anyway, so the total is effectively ~20k on top of wages.

Now.. if you put wages as £20k, that figure drops to £15k (ignoring child benefit). Which would make you better off, although the marginal rate is pretty savage.

entitlecalc.JPG

post-3007-0-76686600-1370340662_thumb.jpg

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:o

My wife and I dont take much more than that home. We have two kids and both work 37.5 hour weeks.

This is mental! :angry:

Thank you for working. Your country needs you :ph34r:

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Guest eight

Thank you for working. Your country needs you :ph34r:

Not so much your country as the the ten people you're directly sponsoring.

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  • 243 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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