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it is amazing that japanese homes have more space than we do.

one solution to fit more into the same space would be to build proper apartments in the UK for families.

i think more people would happily live in apartments if they were not just cramped boxes but genuine 1200-1500 sq ft homes.

you could build up in 5-6 storeys and save a lot of space, but that kind of option just doesnt exist in the UK.

The flat i've bought sort of bucks the trend to most new builds, although mines a near newbuild converted old building with a new top put on it I think. It's around 80 sq m with another 20 sq m balcony, it could of been made another 10 sq m or so if that duplex bit had been extended out further as there's plenty of height to do it. It's 2 bedrooms and about the same sq m as those 3 beds from the first post, thats nuts.

Edited by motch
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From the numbers in the brochure, I make that about 900 square feet over two floors. Our three bed house is about 2200 square feet over three floors (ground, bedroom and basement) and we could do with more.

From tot'ing up the dimensions I think its about 80m2. The minimum London dimensions for a 3 bed house is 87m2 (4 person) 96m2 (5 person).

Worse than that - a 2bed house minimum is 83sqm. So lets face it, its an undersized 2 bed house - Bedroom 3 does make you wince.

With respect to choice - most of the houses in this country are built by a handful of companies. With respect to quality, put that fact up against crazy land values and a conservative industry and you have a recipe for poor housing.

Edited by pig
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Some of the Victorian housing stock around the Country has been up for >150 years now, had high ceilings and large rooms. The downside of course is the cost in heating them but the build quality is sound in them lasting so long.

Will these Barratts and the like hutches still be in 150 years? A lot of them are also built on reclaimed landfill particularly the newer ones to the West of London.

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With respect to choice - most of the houses in this country are built by a handful of companies. With respect to quality, put that fact up against crazy land values and a conservative industry and you have a recipe for poor housing.

Just like IDS was challenged to live on benefits, I would like the patronising people that call themselves architects and builders to live in one of those structures in the OP that pretends to be a dwelling fit for purpose.

There are two reasons I have rented for 25 years

1) House prices have always been in a bubble when I could have bought.

2) The houses I could afford, like those in the OP, I would never want to invest in and own*.

*I rent is a converted two floor shed with a footprint of 32m2 and a good view or 'outside room'; so it's not because I want a palace.

What I do want to do is design and build my own modest property - if I could get some land.

Edited by LiveinHope
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Just like IDS was challenged to live on benefits, I would like the patronising people that call themselves architects and builders to live in one of those structures in the OP that pretends to be a dwelling fit for purpose.

There are two reasons I have rented for 25 years

1) House prices have always been in a bubble when I could have bought.

2) The houses I could afford, like those in the OP, I would never want to invest in and own*.

*I rent is a converted two floor shed with a footprint of 32m2 and a good view or 'outside room'; so it's not because I want a palace.

What I do want to do is design and build my own modest property - if I could get some land.

Given the chance, architects and builders would be all too happy to create palaces for everyone - if you're going to blame anybody it's 'developers', aka 'house-builders', many of whom have such narrow briefs its easier to have their own internal design and construction teams. . But before you do this, best have a look at their business case together with many of economic and political issues raised on this site.

After all you are clearly aware of the problem in the price of and getting hold of Land...

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Given the chance, architects and builders would be all too happy to create palaces for everyone - if you're going to blame anybody it's 'developers', aka 'house-builders', many of whom have such narrow briefs its easier to have their own internal design and construction teams. . But before you do this, best have a look at their business case together with many of economic and political issues raised on this site.

After all you are clearly aware of the problem in the price of and getting hold of Land...

Are architects and builders not responsible for the boxes in the OP ?

I would imagine an architect designed the cell for the developer, and as you say, the developers are builders

*Or is those names too generous ?

Edited by LiveinHope
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Another issue with new build estates in my area, is how greedy the developers have been in cramming in too many houses to the detriment of the estate in general.

Not only are the houses small themselves, but the plots are tiny too. Back gardens little bigger than a postage stamp, often no front garden at all. You're lucky if you get a 1 car driveway, more often it's a parking space you can't guarantee won't get used by others, and a garage in a block, situated behind the houses (which you usually navigate to by driving through a shared car-port type gap in the housing). The roads in these estates are as thin as possible. Add that to the lack of parking, the high density housing, and throw in a bus route winding through the estate and driving round these places becomes a nightmare.

Near me when they rebuilt the road from a previous estate in a slightly different layout (to cram in as many houses as possible), they made the road so thin that a bus couldn't turn around the corners, and they had to completely change the bus route!

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Near me when they rebuilt the road from a previous estate in a slightly different layout (to cram in as many houses as possible), they made the road so thin that a bus couldn't turn around the corners, and they had to completely change the bus route!

The irony of it all in my area is that these estates are on the outskirts of the town, a good 10-15 minutes drive by car to the town centre, and more like 40-50mins on the winding slow bus routes. So you have cramp, high density housing (often described as 'town houses') surrounded by fields, with a poor provision of public transport (that is also rather expensive to use), and a desperate under provision of car parking space. These properties have nothing going for them at all imo.

It's not surprising that when I see then being sold on a couple of years after being built, they appear to be BTL's getting rid (all cream decor, no upper chain etc). Can't see why anyone would buy one to actually live in.

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The irony of it all in my area is that these estates are on the outskirts of the town, a good 10-15 minutes drive by car to the town centre, and more like 40-50mins on the winding slow bus routes. So you have cramp, high density housing (often described as 'town houses') surrounded by fields, with a poor provision of public transport (that is also rather expensive to use), and a desperate under provision of car parking space. These properties have nothing going for them at all imo.

or 10-40 minutes by bicycle, cheap and healthy.

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Perhaps that would be a viable idea if they installed some proper cycle paths.

Perhaps they have there. Hopefully more decent thought out ones will be installed more around the country, less of these bollard islands in the centre of roads would be handy as well.

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Are architects and builders not responsible for the boxes in the OP ?

I would imagine an architect designed the cell for the developer, and as you say, the developers are builders

*Or is those names too generous ?

Sure, happens all the time. However in terms of 'responsibility' this is wildly misleading - its a bit like saying chefs are responsible for KFC and McDonalds.

Much more instructive to start looking at the broader economic, political, social issues i.e why a businessman insists on offering money to draw/cook sh*t up rather than complaining about people who take up the offer.

Edited by pig
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Sure, happens all the time. However in terms of 'responsibility' this is wildly misleading - its a bit like saying chefs are responsible for KFC and McDonalds.

Much more instructive to start looking at the broader economic, political, social issues i.e why a businessman insists on offering money to draw/cook sh*t up rather than complaining about people who take up the offer.

Because the majority of people let them get away with it by signing on the dotted line.

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Because the majority of people let them get away with it by signing on the dotted line.

I guess - but you would have thought that after over a decade of Grand Designs and home improvement programmes we would be a little wiser.

Sadly this is a naive thought. However its not even just because of the desperate state of the housing industry that we are locked into being beggars not choosers, the problem is even more endemic.

Much of the problem is linked to the issues this site is concerned. Amazing to think we have chosen to build our lives around housing equity/debt, rather than housing our lives in good buildings.

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ah but walls take up precious floorspace. First you have a kitchen, dining room, and lounge, then a kitchen-diner and lounge, now a lounge-kitchen-diner, next, who knows, a lounge-kitchen-diner-bedroom? :blink:

You forgot to include the pan.

I I don't mean the one in the kitchen, though it might well be situated there.

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Ignore the price on this one, but this is the type of flat we should be building in London. If we had more 120m2 2 bed flats built in London we could have more families living here.

58075_2116939_FLP_00_0000_max_600x600.JPG

New build in Putney

To me ...that's a bit of a waste of space in that central block of an suite, closets.... in a two bedroom flat.

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It's the floor bit I don't like......outside space is another room or rooms.......leasehold is not the same as freehold.

Leasehold is like a long-term rental contract with a sometimes very costly service charge and insurances, commitments along with other leaseholders to contend with that may or may not stick to the relevant agreement/responsibilities........give me a semi or a terrace with some outside space any day......people. ;)

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No outside space and where's the storage space? The utility room?

Do you really need outside space in a flat?

Storage - large walk in wardrobes and utility room

Utility room is where you put your washing machine, tumble dryer etc.

Seriously - I'm amazed people aren't interested in a 110m2 2 bedroom flat. This is the sort of thing that needs to get built more in the UK

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Lots of new builds in Milton Keynes and boards about the 20% help to buy scheme plastered by the roadside. OP You are right. They are rabbit hutches which are going for prices inflated even above the current inflated prices of normal size older houses. I feel sorry for the suckers who are being conned into this pyramid scheme

Edited by Spoony
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Do you really need outside space in a flat?

Storage - large walk in wardrobes and utility room

Utility room is where you put your washing machine, tumble dryer etc.

Seriously - I'm amazed people aren't interested in a 110m2 2 bedroom flat. This is the sort of thing that needs to get built more in the UK

The walk-in wardrobes and en-suite bathrooms look like a big waste of space to me, so no, that isn't the sort of thing we need to build more of. I agree that modern rabbit hutches are pretty appalling but they also give the impression of being pretty space-inefficient too. What's the average footprint compared to a Victorian terrace? Knocking two terraces into one would give a good-sized house that probably wouldn't take up much more land than a modern rabbit hutch (and probably won't fall down in 20 years' time either).

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  • 429 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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