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Activists And Pacifists

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I think there is a fundamental philisophical divide among the bears on this site which is starting to cause some friction. To simplify I would say it is between the activists and the pacifists. To further simplify (from an admittedly "pacifist" point of view) I would divide the two types here:

Activists

Activist bears are those that believe that house prices should crash but are less confident that they will unaided. They tend to think that some sort of political activity is needed to start property prices falling - which tend to be of an interventionist nature. They also tend to believe that renting out or speculating in housing is morally dubious.

Pacifists

Pacifist bears are those that believe that house prices will crash through the natural operation of the market but are less worried about whether they should. The believe that house prices are fundamentally overvalued and will naturally fall. They tend to be sceptical about the efficacy of political action and to be unworried about the morality of the housing market.

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Am I right in thinking that we bears are essentially in two camps? This is not to say that either camp is right or that they are mutually exclusive, but that if we know where each other are coming from there will be less friction.

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I think there is a fundamental philisophical divide among the bears on this site which is starting to cause some friction. To simplify I would say it is between the activists and the pacifists. To further simplify (from an admittedly "pacifist" point of view) I would divide the two types here:

Activists

Activist bears are those that believe that house prices should crash but are less confident that they will unaided. They tend to think that some sort of political activity is needed to start property prices falling - which tend to be of an interventionist nature. They also tend to believe that renting out or speculating in housing is morally dubious.

Pacifists

Pacifist bears are those that believe that house prices will crash through the natural operation of the market but are less worried about whether they should. The believe that house prices are fundamentally overvalued and will naturally fall. They tend to be sceptical about the efficacy of political action and to be unworried about the morality of the housing market.

------------------

Am I right in thinking that we bears are essentially in two camps? This is not to say that either camp is right or that they are mutually exclusive, but that if we know where each other are coming from there will be less friction.

Hi,

And the Awooga Bears. Don't forget them. Awooga! Awooga!

Edited by boom_and_bust

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OK, so this was not popular.

But I've noticed quite a few threads where some of our more politically conscious members want to march, or mobilise, or bombard their MPs and they get derided by those of us who are simply acting on our conviction that house prices are overvalued and that markets are better than politics.

On the other hand those of us who would consider speculating in houses or renting them out when house prices return to sane levels are regarded by (some) politically aware types as being beyond the pale.

I'm not saying that either side is right or wrong, just that we are bears for different reasons. It may help us to understand each other, that's all.

Edited by IP Newcomer

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I think I'm a slightly dithery compassionate-conservative neo-classical hawk-bear.

I think that i) house prices will crash in the end (EDIT: without any 'special' assistance), ii) something should be done to save young FTBers from enslaving themselves to banks (EDIT: and enriching the boomers for no particular reason), but iii) I don't really know how this can be done, aside from petitioning the media etc, and putting our case across really, really well.

A genuinely funny campaign would be good.

Edited by RichM

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OK, so this was not popular.

But I've noticed quite a few threads where some of our more politically conscious members want to march, or mobilise, or bombard their MPs and they get derided by those of us who are simply acting on our conviction that house prices are overvalued and that markets are better than politics.

On the other hand those of us who would consider speculating in houses or renting them out when house prices return to sane levels are regarded by (some) politically aware types as being beyond the pale.

I'm not saying that either side is right or wrong, just that we are bears for different reasons. It may help us to understand each other, that's all.

Fair enough.

The problem is that the time to be active is before a bubble exists. Prevention is better than cure.

No government is going to deliberately bring down house prices once they are high because it affects the 'comfortable majority'. Or at least the appearance of their wealth.

If the government had provided means through the tax system or in law to keep balance and stability in the housing market years ago that would have been the only chance.

I feel that this site has had more impact for individuals and, arguably, the wider society with regard to house prices than anything else could have.

Or maybe I am just making excuses for not being active...

There is also the issue of being an STR clouding my view on this - however much I think high house prices are bad for the country and FTBs, it is not quite such a critical and emotive issue for me personally.

Edited by Starcrossed

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I think I'm a slightly dithery compassionate-conservative neo-classical hawk-bear.

I've obviously annoyed too many people today.

I think that i) house prices will crash in the end (EDIT: without any 'special' assistance),

A far better definition of a "pacifist" than I thought up.

ii) something should be done to save young FTBers from enslaving themselves to banks (EDIT: and enriching the boomers for no particular reason), but iii) I don't really know how this can be done, aside from petitioning the media etc, and putting our case across really, really well.

A genuinely funny campaign would be good.

But why do you want to do this? If it is because you want to help them to make a better decision then you're still pretty much a pacifist. If you expect them to turn the market (a buyers strike) then you're being an activist.

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I've obviously annoyed too many people today.

A far better definition of a "pacifist" than I thought up.

But why do you want to do this? If it is because you want to help them to make a better decision then you're still pretty much a pacifist. If you expect them to turn the market (a buyers strike) then you're being an activist.

OK, continuing on from my intial post on Freds topic -

Lets say we did go on this march/rally/....

We all know that the press have a very - how can I put this tactfully :rolleyes: - one sided agenda that 'seems' to help the government out quite nicely thank you very much.

What would they see at this rally? a group of middle class, middle (to high) income, predominetly white, educated people with jobs, savings and careers.

Does this sound familiar?

The last time this was tried was back in the days of The Lloyds Names bemaoning their fate and marching for the government to 'do something' to help them......I never laughed so hard or wished misfortune on a group of greedy stupid people in all my life. Now granted, I didnt know the whole story because THE PRESS DIDNT WANT ME TO KNOW THE WHOLE STORY they showed me a bunch of incredibly wealthy people who had gotten even more incredibly wealthy over the years and were 'caught out' by a series of natural disasters which cost them a packet. TOUGH TITTIES i said to the telly.

What do you think the media 'spin' would be on our rally?

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OK, continuing on from my intial post on Freds topic -

Lets say we did go on this march/rally/....

We all know that the press have a very - how can I put this tactfully :rolleyes: - one sided agenda that 'seems' to help the government out quite nicely thank you very much.

What would they see at this rally? a group of middle class, middle (to high) income, predominetly white, educated people with jobs, savings and careers.

Does this sound familiar?

The last time this was tried was back in the days of The Lloyds Names bemaoning their fate and marching for the government to 'do something' to help them......I never laughed so hard or wished misfortune on a group of greedy stupid people in all my life. Now granted, I didnt know the whole story because THE PRESS DIDNT WANT ME TO KNOW THE WHOLE STORY they showed me a bunch of incredibly wealthy people who had gotten even more incredibly wealthy over the years and were 'caught out' by a series of natural disasters which cost them a packet. TOUGH TITTIES i said to the telly.

What do you think the media 'spin' would be on our rally?

with ya on that one Slates... we need to remember that there are and will increasingly be people suffering because of the insane HPI and subsequent HPC.

We, however, are not they. The very fact that we are all here shows that we are prepared and preparing. There will be, and should not be, any sympathy for us.

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But why do you want to do this? If it is because you want to help them to make a better decision then you're still pretty much a pacifist. If you expect them to turn the market (a buyers strike) then you're being an activist.

Yes, want to help them make a better decision. Very little one could do to change the market, unless one is Governor of BoE. :lol:

That said, word of mouth, this site, etc etc, will probably save quite a few. It will be a matter of loss of confidence somewhere along the line, which will a ground-swell I think, especially as the economy stalls without credit. Eventually not buying will be the "right on", widely acceptable thing to do. Not quite there yet...

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That said, word of mouth, this site, etc etc, will probably save quite a few.

After the crash, Stephen Speilberg will discover the story of how thousands were saved from a life of debt misery by the advice they received on Housepricecrash.co.uk

Inspired, he sets about creating a film which will capture the brutality of the VIs, the suffering of millions, and the story of those who were saved at the final hour.

Liam Neeson will play the role of Right_Freds_Dead, a businessman who couldn't bear to see these lambs go to the slaughter, and so rescued them from the comfort of his Ikea computer unit in his back bedroom, furiously typing to persuade them not to take out a mortgage.

The film will be nominated for, and go on to win, several Oscars: that film will be "Fred's List".

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Liam Neeson will play the role of Right_Freds_Dead, a businessman who couldn't bear to see these lambs go to the slaughter, and so rescued them from the comfort of his Ikea computer unit in his back bedroom, furiously typing to persuade them not to take out a mortgage.

i like it, but cant we dig up gordon jackson for just one more part...?

animation and cgi experts can make him sing again those lucid, yet unrepentant tones.

it would make for a more commanding performance....

first scence.: smokey highland hill top.

...and action....

"and so any man have not the stomach for this battle, lest yee hope yee find stomach in thy terror. for what you wont fight for, others will take from you by force or malice. gentlemen, the kurgan is close upon us and daylight draws breath."

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The film will be nominated for, and go on to win, several Oscars: that film will be "Fred's List".

DrBubb will be the Ben Kingsley equivalent of course.

Wrigglesworth will be played by Ralph Fiennes

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who have we got for shakerbaby and charlie the tramp ?

dont say jimmy krankie and tom o'connor.

They're actually doing another film: "Saving Private Property". Charlie has Tom Hanks' part, Shakerbaby is the confused owner of a 2-bed terrace, deep behind enemy lines, desparately needed at home to help his mum cover her equity release plan gone wrong...

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  • 336 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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