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Stainless Sam

France And Germany Near Divorce

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Nice little article here at the Torygraph. http://blogs.telegra...ance-next-time/

The Greman-French axis that has driven the European project, frustrated British aims and kept the Euro millstone afloat is splintering before our eyes, like the old bloke and his spendthrift totty wife who develop irreconcilable difficulties.

The old geezer wants to stay at home counting his money and organising his stamp collection, while the flighty one is becoming dangerously attracted to Latin chaps who like to laze around in the sun. It was okay at first but now she's calling the old boy a to$spot in public and it won't end well.

I've argued for long enough that the UKIP nutcases and their accolytes are plain wrong. The Euro is doomed and it will take French influence, the CAP and half of Brussels with it when the whole edifice collapses.

We're going to get sprayed with the brown stuff when it happens but this would have happened whether we are inside or outside the EU. The the ideal place to be is there to pick up the pieces, offering soothing words of, "I told you so" and being a major shaper of what comes after.

Edited by Stainless Sam

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Not sure the British can really understand the way the rest of Europe, especially France and Germany view the EU; for the British it’s simply a question of ‘so what do I get out of it???’ while for many Europeans the EU represents a solution to generations of war, they view the EU as a political stabilizing force in Europe and these economic issues are secondary.

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Nice little article here at the Torygraph. http://blogs.telegra...ance-next-time/

The Greman-French axis that has driven the European project, frustrated British aims and kept the Euro millstone afloat is splintering before our eyes, like the old bloke and his spendthrift totty wife who develop irreconcilable difficulties.

The old geezer wants to stay at home counting his money and organising his stamp collection, while the flighty one is becoming dangerously attracted to Latin chaps who like to laze around in the sun. It was okay at first but now she's calling the old boy a to$spot in public and it won't end well.

I've argued for long enough that the UKIP nutcases and their accolytes are plain wrong. The Euro is doomed and it will take French influence, the CAP and half of Brussels with it when the whole edifice collapses.

We're going to get sprayed with the brown stuff when it happens but this would have happened whether we are inside or outside the EU. The the ideal place to be is there to pick up the pieces, offering soothing words of, "I told you so" and being a major shaper of what comes after.

House prices won`t be affected though?

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Not sure the British can really understand the way the rest of Europe, especially France and Germany view the EU; for the British it’s simply a question of ‘so what do I get out of it???’ while for many Europeans the EU represents a solution to generations of war, they view the EU as a political stabilizing force in Europe and these economic issues are secondary.

Well they are fools then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeeper_missile

Appropriate name. :P

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I'm pretty sure none of them were based in Germany or France. Or do think the US was threatening to nuke both countries if they started fighting again?

France has it's own nuclear weapons, nobody is ever going to have a full on unlimited war with France as a result.

Germany was essentially occupied and a foreign policy puppet for almost 50 years by NATO/Warsaw Pact, and everybody was basically OK with that because, ultimately, of Soviet and American nukes. Even now this no longer applies it'll take a while for that sort of trauma to wear off. If Germany started to get belligerent, those on the receiving end would be wise to develop their own nuclear weapons, and then that'll be the end of that. No nation is going to declare war on another nation if that means their capital being promptly vaporised.

As for stabilising force, oh really. If anything is going to cause a war or a revolution in Europe these days it is the EU. It's setting nation against nation due to its constant meddling and willingness to toss people onto the fire to preserve itself.

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Not sure the British can really understand the way the rest of Europe, especially France and Germany view the EU; for the British it’s simply a question of ‘so what do I get out of it???’ while for many Europeans the EU represents a solution to generations of war, they view the EU as a political stabilizing force in Europe and these economic issues are secondary.

For the british, its the same as everyone else. The EU rules by threat and blackmail. Don't accept the terms of our bailout and we'll take your jobs, freeze you out of trade, make you an international pariah. Its a vile way to control a union, but works well for the vindictive control freaks in Brussels. Given how many are ex-KGB and stasi, its perhaps the only way they know how.

The British have been convinced they'll be somehow exiled, no one will ever buy British ever again just because some bureaucrat has been spurned. Without govt, trade continues, and probably increases in reality.

Of course, for blackmail to work, you have to have something to lose. For Greece, Cyprus, Spain, that wont be the case much longer. One day they'll stick their fingers up at the rigged deals and call Brussels bluff.

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for the British it's simply a question of 'so what do I get out of it???

Stinkingly asset rich British landowners getting more out of if than most, and the only reason we are in it IMO.

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France has it's own nuclear weapons, nobody is ever going to have a full on unlimited war with France as a result.

Germany was essentially occupied and a foreign policy puppet for almost 50 years by NATO/Warsaw Pact, and everybody was basically OK with that because, ultimately, of Soviet and American nukes. Even now this no longer applies it'll take a while for that sort of trauma to wear off. If Germany started to get belligerent, those on the receiving end would be wise to develop their own nuclear weapons, and then that'll be the end of that. No nation is going to declare war on another nation if that means their capital being promptly vaporised.

As for stabilising force, oh really. If anything is going to cause a war or a revolution in Europe these days it is the EU. It's setting nation against nation due to its constant meddling and willingness to toss people onto the fire to preserve itself.

History speaks for itself. Since the EU, formerly EEC, was established, no member state has fought against another, not even the ones without nukes. This has not been the case for countries outside the EU, despite the possession of nuclear weapons by the great powers. This points to the close union of the EU rather than the threat nuclear weapons being the main peacemaker.

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History speaks for itself. Since the EU, formerly EEC, was established, no member state has fought against another, not even the ones without nukes. This has not been the case for countries outside the EU, despite the possession of nuclear weapons by the great powers. This points to the close union of the EU rather than the threat nuclear weapons being the main peacemaker.

:lol:

You need to work on your sarcasm - I almost thought you believed what you were saying.

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:lol:

You need to work on your sarcasm - I almost thought you believed what you were saying.

Which part of my argument do you disagree with?

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Stinkingly asset rich British landowners getting more out of if than most, and the only reason we are in it IMO.

Those "farmers" are shrewd.

Two other north-east farming businesses – Craigellachie-based Glenmore Properties, and Ross Bros, of Strichen – have also received £1million-plus awards from the single farm payment (SFP) regime.

Glenmore Properties is run by Stephen Strathdee and his family. Mr Strathdee has been among the main buyers of SFP after purchasing several farms in Moray on which he grows malting barley and vegetables.

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1635315

On which he grows malting barley and vegetables"..... and housing developments

http://www.strathdeeproperties.com/about.html

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History speaks for itself. Since the EU, formerly EEC, was established, no member state has fought against another, not even the ones without nukes. This has not been the case for countries outside the EU, despite the possession of nuclear weapons by the great powers. This points to the close union of the EU rather than the threat nuclear weapons being the main peacemaker.

Somehow I don't think the coal and steel pact averted European infighting. The very idea is farcical.

I think the gigantic neighbour with lots of nukes, and our ally/occupier across the sea who had a very large vested interest in keeping Europe together to counterbalance that neighbour, may have had a tad more to do with it.

Never mind NATO.

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Somehow I don't think the coal and steel pact averted European infighting. The very idea is farcical.

I think the gigantic neighbour with lots of nukes, and our ally/occupier across the sea who had a very large vested interest in keeping Europe together to counterbalance that neighbour, may have had a tad more to do with it.

Never mind NATO.

Not to mention that our ally/occupier across the sea was paying most of the defense bills for mainland Europe as well as spending a lot of other money there by way of it's defense forces.

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Somehow I don't think the coal and steel pact averted European infighting. The very idea is farcical.

I think the gigantic neighbour with lots of nukes, and our ally/occupier across the sea who had a very large vested interest in keeping Europe together to counterbalance that neighbour, may have had a tad more to do with it.

Never mind NATO.

Are you kidding? Cementing peace between European countries, primarily Germany and France, was one of the main reasons for creating the coal and steel pact.

Since the presence of nuclear weapons in the US and USSR didn't stop wars from taking place elsewhere (Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Greece/Turkey pre EU, Spain pre EU, etc.), I don't see why they should take particular credit for stopping war within the EU.

Edited by snowflux

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Are you kidding? Cementing peace between European countries, primarily Germany and France, was one of the main reasons for creating the coal and steel pact.

Since the presence of nuclear weapons in the US and USSR didn't stop wars from taking place elsewhere (Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Greece/Turkey pre EU, Spain pre EU, etc.), I don't see why they should take particular credit for stopping war within the EU.

That's a good point actually, but the stabilising, beneficial pact between France and Germany after so many decades has gotten less efficient.

Edited by Big Orange

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Since the presence of nuclear weapons in the US and USSR didn't stop wars from taking place elsewhere (Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Greece/Turkey pre EU, Spain pre EU, etc.), I don't see why they should take particular credit for stopping war within the EU.

Korea and Vietnam, it's chauvinistic but true, nobody in power in the West really gave a monkeys about how many Vietnamese or Koreans got killed off as part of the Great Game between the US and USSR. So an ideal place for a proxy war. I

Greece/Turkey, not at the forefront of the cold war, both in the western bloc, neither all that relevant to the great powers of the Cold War. I'm not sure that the EU has made any difference at all either beyond Greece now being part of a larger bloc and thus better able to stand up to Turkey. It's not happy fun time on Cyprus even now regarding Greece/Turkey. Speaking of which, what about Northern Ireland's Troubles?

Yugoslavia's explanation is pretty obvious.

Spain pre EU, I'm not so sure what you're on about - you mean the Spanish Civil War? That started out as a revolution due to extreme poverty and inequality, we might see a rerun if the EU gets its way!

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Are you kidding? Cementing peace between European countries, primarily Germany and France, was one of the main reasons for creating the coal and steel pact.

Since the presence of nuclear weapons in the US and USSR didn't stop wars from taking place elsewhere (Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Greece/Turkey pre EU, Spain pre EU, etc.), I don't see why they should take particular credit for stopping war within the EU.

+1 (except for Spain - the civil war took place before the first atom bomb).

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+1 (except for Spain - the civil war took place before the first atom bomb).

Yes, true of course, sorry. I was thinking of Franco's dictatorship that followed rather than the actual civil war. However, in the case of Spain and other later EU entrants, the carrot of EU membership was a powerful incentive to democratise.

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Yes, true of course, sorry. I was thinking of Franco's dictatorship that followed rather than the actual civil war. However, in the case of Spain and other later EU entrants, the carrot of EU membership was a powerful incentive to democratise.

There are many incentives for a nation to democratise in the modern world. And Franco wasn't exactly popular. ETA offed his obvious successor at just the right time, as well.

Almost all of these nations are part of NATO as well. Making it very hard for the EU to claim any credit when they are already a part of a military alliance with one another. One which, for most of its existence, was again backed by nuclear weapons and primarily opposed to a similarly armed foe.

Edited by EUBanana

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History speaks for itself. Since the EU, formerly EEC, was established, no member state has fought against another, not even the ones without nukes.

This also coincided with the collapse of the British and French empires and the relative decline in Europe's power and importance. Quite simply there was nothing left to fight over.

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There are many incentives for a nation to democratise in the modern world. And Franco wasn't exactly popular. ETA offed his obvious successor at just the right time, as well.

Almost all of these nations are part of NATO as well. Making it very hard for the EU to claim any credit when they are already a part of a military alliance with one another. One which, for most of its existence, was again backed by nuclear weapons and primarily opposed to a similarly armed foe.

The fact that they were both members of NATO didn't stop Greece and Turkey fighting over Cyprus, not surprisingly, given that NATO was founded to counter Soviet expansion, not to prevent conflict between European countries. That was the purpose of the EEC/EU. While nuclear weapons may have prevent a war between the US and the USSR (though it was a close thing), they can't really take the credit for peace between European nations.

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This also coincided with the collapse of the British and French empires and the relative decline in Europe's power and importance. Quite simply there was nothing left to fight over.

European countries had been fighting each other since time immemorial, before any of them had empires. The peace we have had since the end of WWII is without precedent.

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European countries had been fighting each other since time immemorial, before any of them had empires. The peace we have had since the end of WWII is without precedent.

Much of Europe was, as I said, essentially occcupied by foreign powers for 50 years more or less. I think that's without precedent as well.

There is certainly nothing uniquely stable about a federation, which is what the EU is.

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The fact that they were both members of NATO didn't stop Greece and Turkey fighting over Cyprus, not surprisingly, given that NATO was founded to counter Soviet expansion, not to prevent conflict between European countries. That was the purpose of the EEC/EU. While nuclear weapons may have prevent a war between the US and the USSR (though it was a close thing), they can't really take the credit for peace between European nations.

Europe stopped invading each other because the Allies helped to bring an end to fascism. Democratic nations rarely fight wars against each other.

Also dont underestimate the presence of the US military, not just those on the ground in Europe but the US political presence itself.

The Greece Turkey war was down to Greek Nationalists trying to take over the island and oust the turks. When the Turks went in and the island was divided up it essentially had the approval of the US. If it was all about stopping turkey going in the US could easily have stopped it had they put their foot down, but the fact is they didnt want to let Greek Nationalists rule the island.

If Nationalism (which is now on the rise it europe again due to a loss of power and democracy) takes over again, then the conditions for war will rise again.

European countries discovered democracy, but it had to find it the hard way, with a lot of help from the US.

The problem is that the deeper EU integration maybe causing Nationalism to rise up rather than ending it.

Edited by mfp123

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  • 242 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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