Reck B Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I went to visit my dad over the weekend - he is a landlord (a proper, old-school do-anything-for-his-tenants proffesional type before you egg me) and has a house of bedsits. One of the tenants has been a nigthmare for him - he stopped paying his rent and has been dicking my dad around for ages, promising to pay/move out etc but never sticking to his word. He's been given his notice and the 2 months have lapsed. Anyway, this guy hasn't been seen for a while but he's got a friend who his clearly a drug dealer living in the room. Quite an intimidating, big, 'ethinc' londoner. My old man has asked him to leave many times and recently changed the locks on the room whilst he was out. Last week, my dad went to the room to make sure everything is ok and the door had been kicked in and there was mr drug dealing squatter sat in the room. After quite a heated exchange, the dealer says "we use guns you know". My dad left the house & reported this to the police. You'd think this would be enough to spark the police into action immediately after the report, but oh no - they've done absolutely F all, just passing messages between themselves. and taking days to call him back. it's been over a week now. He's trying to sell the house as he's had quite a lot of trouble from other tenants recently. I would imagine trying to sell a HMO with it's own gangbanger in room 5 might create problems. 1) someone has broken and entered his property 2) He is a drug dealer 3) he made a threat involving illegal firearms Should this be enough for the Police to actually do something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I went to visit my dad over the weekend - he is a landlord (a proper, old-school do-anything-for-his-tenants proffesional type before you egg me) and has a house of bedsits. One of the tenants has been a nigthmare for him - he stopped paying his rent and has been dicking my dad around for ages, promising to pay/move out etc but never sticking to his word. He's been given his notice and the 2 months have lapsed. Anyway, this guy hasn't been seen for a while but he's got a friend who his clearly a drug dealer living in the room. Quite an intimidating, big, 'ethinc' londoner. My old man has asked him to leave many times and recently changed the locks on the room whilst he was out. Last week, my dad went to the room to make sure everything is ok and the door had been kicked in and there was mr drug dealing squatter sat in the room. After quite a heated exchange, the dealer says "we use guns you know". My dad left the house & reported this to the police. You'd think this would be enough to spark the police into action immediately after the report, but oh no - they've done absolutely F all, just passing messages between themselves. and taking days to call him back. it's been over a week now. He's trying to sell the house as he's had quite a lot of trouble from other tenants recently. I would imagine trying to sell a HMO with it's own gangbanger in room 5 might create problems. 1) someone has broken and entered his property 2) He is a drug dealer 3) he made a threat involving illegal firearms Should this be enough for the Police to actually do something? it appears the dealer is a friend of the tenant. complication. your dad entered unlawfully....complication. general observation from dealer....complication. the person who entered the property illegally was the LL...he changed the locks Illegally... Sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reck B Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 it appears the dealer is a friend of the tenant. complication. your dad entered unlawfully....complication. general observation from dealer....complication. the person who entered the property illegally was the LL...he changed the locks Illegally... Sorry... I assume you're playing devils advocate here but the tenant is no longer a tenant as he's had notice served. general observation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eagle Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 The police is too busy arresting people posting comments on twitter to care about such trivialities as drug dealers and threats of armed violence... Maybe if your father reports the current squatter as a potential terrorist, then the police might start to become interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I assume you're playing devils advocate here but the tenant is no longer a tenant as he's had notice served. general observation? Don't you have to get a court thingy to evict someone? Serve them all the notices you like but until the judge says go... And the way to get the police interested in say he's growing/dealing from the property. Expect it to cost him a new door - although he could leave them a set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I assume you're playing devils advocate here but the tenant is no longer a tenant as he's had notice served. general observation? the druggy said people in his game shoot people. there could be an implied threat here....but is that a crime?....like saying Im going to kill you...I have to have the means and you have to beleive it too, ie, is the threat serious? I dont think most drug users are particularly violent,..unlike their dealers and their turf wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Don't you have to get a court thingy to evict someone? Yes. This sounds like an illegal eviction if the landlord didn't get a court's permission to evict. The expiry of notice just means court proceedings can begin, they do not mean the tenant has to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Yes- but this geezer isn't the tenant, so he has no right to be there. I'd say breaking and entering and making threats should be more than enough to get the police interested, especially given the new Commissioner's "Total Policing" ethos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Yes- but this geezer isn't the tenant, so he has no right to be there. I'd say breaking and entering and making threats should be more than enough to get the police interested, especially given the new Commissioner's "Total Policing" ethos. He's not subletting... he's got a friend to stay for a few days. He's out doing shopping. ETC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilf Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 No specifics on your situation but in general I have found the police to be an absolute and complete waste of time. Had cause to involve the police in something about 5 times, not just trivial stuff either. Not one has there ever been a successful outcome. The crimes and outcomes are as follows.... 1. Car stolen Outcome - Police did nothing, father saw said vehicle and cashed in the fire engine he was driving at the time. Driver jumped out and vehicle recovered. 2. Motorcycle stolen Outcome - Police did nothing, found the vehicle a week or so later burnt out in the local park 3. House Broken in to Outcome - Police did nothing. Nothing recovered, nobody arrested. 4. Motorcycle stolen Outcome - Found by somebody who phoned Police, they phoned me and I had to go and find it as was only given the name of park. 5. Serious Attack (had it got anywhere near a court could well have been attempted murder) Outcome - Went to look at some mug shots, nothing else happened even though there were 10+ witnesses. 6. Motorcycle attempted theft Outcome - Police did nothing, phone to report attempted theft, bike was on side, number plate stolen and damage. Was basically told there was nothing they could or would do. In future I think I would be inclined not to involve the Police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 The thing I discovered about the police is you need to ask for reference numbers when you report stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renewed Investor Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I feel sorry for your dad, sounds like the Police are, as usual, being absolutely useless. I've gotten to the point of just taking things into my own hands. Thing is I normally deal with some loud mouth chav who fights like a monkey with a firecracker up it's ****, guys with guns is a different matter. I'd say keep pestering the police. if they refuse to investigate properly threaten them with a lawyer. Make sure your dad records any contact with the police and the dirty squatter. Basically build your own evidence file. Keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renewed Investor Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 No specifics on your situation but in general I have found the police to be an absolute and complete waste of time. Had cause to involve the police in something about 5 times, not just trivial stuff either. Not one has there ever been a successful outcome. The crimes and outcomes are as follows.... 1. Car stolen Outcome - Police did nothing, father saw said vehicle and cashed in the fire engine he was driving at the time. Driver jumped out and vehicle recovered. 2. Motorcycle stolen Outcome - Police did nothing, found the vehicle a week or so later burnt out in the local park 3. House Broken in to Outcome - Police did nothing. Nothing recovered, nobody arrested. 4. Motorcycle stolen Outcome - Found by somebody who phoned Police, they phoned me and I had to go and find it as was only given the name of park. 5. Serious Attack (had it got anywhere near a court could well have been attempted murder) Outcome - Went to look at some mug shots, nothing else happened even though there were 10+ witnesses. 6. Motorcycle attempted theft Outcome - Police did nothing, phone to report attempted theft, bike was on side, number plate stolen and damage. Was basically told there was nothing they could or would do. In future I think I would be inclined not to involve the Police I'm the same. The times when I have had to involve the police in something I have been let down. The last straw for me was when I was sentenced to community service for an assault charge. My crime? I apparently used unneccessary force when defending myself from some muppet who tried to mug me in a dark alley at 2am. I thought there was no way a jury would let me be charged with defending myself but they did sadly. At least the mugger got what he deserved I suppose and I bet he'll think twice before trying it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 IANAL etc. He's not subletting... he's got a friend to stay for a few days. He's out doing shopping. ETC. I did house shares as a student and IIRC every bog standard contract I signed was very clear that guests were either not allowed, or not allowed in unsupervised. The OP reckons that the original tenant- who has already been given notice, and not paid his rent for several months in any case- has not been seen for ages. I was under the impression that the government had recently passed a law that made squatting illegal, though I'm not au fait with the precise details. But I'm fairly confident that a bloke who is not the original tenant, and who has come in and kicked a door down is probably commiting an offence, and if not, has absolutely no legal right to be there. I certainly second your advice in a later post that the way forward with the police is to always ask for a reference number and, if you think you're being mucked about, to be assertive and present yourself as a potential 'problem customer'. I live in London, and I've absolutely no truck with any argument that the police have no time for this, due to a recent experience with them. About 18 months ago, I bought a new plasma telly and wall mounted it above the fireplace in my sitting room, replacing a smaller LCD using the same mount. For some reason the new telly must have transmitted more sound into the mount than the old one, because our neighbours, and specifically their weird daughter, immediately started giving us a lot of grief about sound pollution through the wall. First of all I put the volume down to a level where I would barely hear it (I only have 40% hearing in my left ear), then when that didn't work I cut up a bunch of old innertubes and comprehensively rubber mounted the telly. You certainly couldn't hear it in the room above the sitting room in our house, but they kept moaning. Anyway, a bit later my wife finished her last OU essay of the year and at about 9.30pm put some loud music on in the sitting room to blow the cobwebs away. As she tells it, it was the famous bass nuisance album 'Graceland' by Paul Simon, which she'd put on our notoriously bassy Bush MTT1 turntable . Anyway they came over and started a blazing row on our doorstep, which culminated in them calling my wife 'ignorant' or somesuch. My wife replied with 'that's the pot calling the kettle black love' at which point the neighnours, who are black, immediately decided that they were being racially abused. The next day I was awoken by my wife after about 5 hours sleep (doing late shifts) who reported that there were two Met constables in our hall. Once I'd put my dressing gown on and stumbled downstairs to talk to them, they were pretty quickly satisfied that the complaint was completely unfounded, despite my wife being a gibbering wreck, and my being too sleepy to properly articulate my thoughts about the harrasment implications of making entirely spurious racism allegations to the police! Anyway, my point is this: if the Met can send two coppers round to my house to investigate an entirely ridiculous noise/racism dispute, they can certainly muster the manpower to discover what business a bloke who is not the tenant has kicking down a door in a shared house and making veiled threats of gun violence towards the owner of said house. OP- start making a ruckus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 IANAL etc. I did house shares as a student and IIRC every bog standard contract I signed was very clear that guests were either not allowed, or not allowed in unsupervised. The OP reckons that the original tenant- who has already been given notice, and not paid his rent for several months in any case- has not been seen for ages. I was under the impression that the government had recently passed a law that made squatting illegal, though I'm not au fait with the precise details. But I'm fairly confident that a bloke who is not the original tenant, and who has come in and kicked a door down is probably commiting an offence, and if not, has absolutely no legal right to be there. I certainly second your advice in a later post that the way forward with the police is to always ask for a reference number and, if you think you're being mucked about, to be assertive and present yourself as a potential 'problem customer'. I live in London, and I've absolutely no truck with any argument that the police have no time for this, due to a recent experience with them. About 18 months ago, I bought a new plasma telly and wall mounted it above the fireplace in my sitting room, replacing a smaller LCD using the same mount. For some reason the new telly must have transmitted more sound into the mount than the old one, because our neighbours, and specifically their weird daughter, immediately started giving us a lot of grief about sound pollution through the wall. First of all I put the volume down to a level where I would barely hear it (I only have 40% hearing in my left ear), then when that didn't work I cut up a bunch of old innertubes and comprehensively rubber mounted the telly. You certainly couldn't hear it in the room above the sitting room in our house, but they kept moaning. Anyway, a bit later my wife finished her last OU essay of the year and at about 9.30pm put some loud music on in the sitting room to blow the cobwebs away. As she tells it, it was the famous bass nuisance album 'Graceland' by Paul Simon, which she'd put on our notoriously bassy Bush MTT1 turntable . Anyway they came over and started a blazing row on our doorstep, which culminated in them calling my wife 'ignorant' or somesuch. My wife replied with 'that's the pot calling the kettle black love' at which point the neighnours, who are black, immediately decided that they were being racially abused. The next day I was awoken by my wife after about 5 hours sleep (doing late shifts) who reported that there were two Met constables in our hall. Once I'd put my dressing gown on and stumbled downstairs to talk to them, they were pretty quickly satisfied that the complaint was completely unfounded, despite my wife being a gibbering wreck, and my being too sleepy to properly articulate my thoughts about the harrasment implications of making entirely spurious racism allegations to the police! Anyway, my point is this: if the Met can send two coppers round to my house to investigate an entirely ridiculous noise/racism dispute, they can certainly muster the manpower to discover what business a bloke who is not the tenant has kicking down a door in a shared house and making veiled threats of gun violence towards the owner of said house. OP- start making a ruckus. all good points...except the OP probably told the police the story of the renter, the changed locks and the illegal eviction. probably decided it wasnt a burglary and didnt take a crime report. hence, we have a suspected tresspass, not a Police matter... Criminal damage?...maybe, but the OP claims he had been seen round the house room before... So what was he reporting exactly that the Police could do anything about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Next time he sees this lad going up to the room get him to call the police and say he think he saw a chap with a handgun enter the house and can hear arguing. They will respond pdq and will search the room as part of the process. If there are nefarious substances onsite the lad will be arrested and carted off. If he acts strangely then they may shoot him.....Bonus..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The XYY Man Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Hmmmm... "Message In A Bottle" or maybe "Roxanne". The Police were quite good in those two... XYY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 all good points...except the OP probably told the police the story of the renter, the changed locks and the illegal eviction. Maybe, but I don't see how changing the locks is an illegal eviction. If I were a responsible landlord and found one of my tenants rooms kicked in, but no evidence of a burglary, I might be tempted to change the locks. That doesn't mean I wouldn't let the tenant back in immediately if he asked me to... probably decided it wasnt a burglary and didnt take a crime report.hence, we have a suspected tresspass, not a Police matter... Criminal damage?...maybe, but the OP claims he had been seen round the house room before... Hang on...what if one of the OP dad's other tenants is a single woman, who might have invited a bloke back at some point or other? That bloke would have 'been seen round the house' but if the woman subsequently broke up with him for any reason that absolutely wouldn't give him the right to turn up and kick her locked door down?! So what was he reporting exactly that the Police could do anything about? Squatting, or breaking and entering, surely? Look, I know we're emphatically 'anti-rentier' on here, but I've rented a couple of places in London in my time with absolutely no bother and reasonable terms from the landlord (had a bit of grief with the letting agent of my last place when I moved out, but resolved it, and couldn't blame it on the landlord in any case). My best mate is still renting a really nice flat which- since we know what the landlord paid, what the mortgage is, and what the service charges are- the landlord must be losing money on, but he's had a £50 rent increase over 4 years, and absolutely no bother. Before he rented his own flat he stayed in a room in a rented house which was, TBH, a bit of a shithole by most people's standards- but it was less than £300 a month, and since he was earning £2K+ a month by that point, he got his debts paid off and sorted himself out from a starting position of chronic alcoholism and serious debt. I was accidental in finding him that room as it happens- I hooked up with a girl in the pub we regularly got wasted in, she lived there, and her landlord had a room going. He was there 2 years- not great fun for him, but an education. The point is this: OP's dad is running an apparently decent HMO, which some cheeky arsehole is completely abusing. If he can't go to the police about it, who can he go to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paece Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 The "ethnic" guy is not on the lease so should not be there. He has mentioned firearms in a conversation. This could possibly be construed as armed trespass, which is a criminal offense. Report this to the police and ask for a crime reference number. Perhaps tell the police that you do not feel safe to go back to the building. Also you could state that you are worried about the safety of the other tenants, they almost certainly are not happy with strangers coming and going I would have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Yes- but this geezer isn't the tenant, so he has no right to be there. It sounds like the tenant said he can be there. If the landlord thinks the tenancy agreement is being broken (in terms of payment of rent and/or rules on guests) he needs to get a court to agree that the tenant can be evicted. He does not have the right to unilaterally change the locks to deny access to the tenant and his guests, and the police do not have a duty to assist with his attempted illegal eviction. I am not at all surprised if a UK landlord doesn't even know the basics of UK housing law. We must have one of the most unprofessional private lettings industries in the developed world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porca misèria Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 It sounds like the tenant said he can be there. If the landlord thinks the tenancy agreement is being broken (in terms of payment of rent and/or rules on guests) he needs to get a court to agree that the tenant can be evicted. He does not have the right to unilaterally change the locks to deny access to the tenant and his guests, and the police do not have a duty to assist with his attempted illegal eviction. I am not at all surprised if a UK landlord doesn't even know the basics of UK housing law. We must have one of the most unprofessional private lettings industries in the developed world. Exactly. Until there's a court order, it would be for the police (if called upon) to defend the tenant against a landlord taking the law into his own hands. Once there's a court order, the landlord can send bailiffs in, and call on the police if the ex-tenant violates the court order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I went to visit my dad over the weekend - he is a landlord (a proper, old-school do-anything-for-his-tenants proffesional type before you egg me) and has a house of bedsits. One of those proper, old-school do-anything-for-his-tenants including attempt to evict them illegally and harrass them too, proffesional types? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Naughton v. Whittle and Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police Manchester County Court, 30 November 2009The story starts in March 2006 when Ms Whittle told her tenant Mr Naughton that she wanted him to go. When Naughton stayed on in the property, pressure was brought to hear on him by the landlords brother. Then on 11 April Ms Whittle physically accosted Naughtons girl friend, wrenching the keys from her hand and injuring it. Naughton then returned home to find the locks being changed. The police on being called, took the landlords side, threatened Naughton with arrest for breach of the peace, and physically removed him from the property after which the locks were changed. He sued both the police and the landlord Ms Whittle. The police did at least give in gracefully and settled the claim by paying £2,500 in respect of the claims made against them for trespass to person and land. The claim against the landlord The defence put in by Ms Whittle illustrates another legal misunderstanding, which landlords sometimes optimistically put forward as a legal rule. She said that Naughton had not paid any rent and that therefore he had not had a proper tenancy, just a temporary agreement pending negotiations for a real tenancy. Sort of like the Urban Myth I discuss here. However the Judge was not having any of this. He found that the tenant had paid rent and that there was no question of any temporary agreement. He made the following award: £7,000 for general damages (£275 per day for the 28 days he was deprived of occupation) and £1,500 for aggravated damages Total payable by Ms Whittle: £8,500. The Judge refused to offset the £2,500 paid by the police saying that each ‘tortfeasor’ must pay the appropriate damages for the wrong they had done. So all in all Total damages awarded to Mr Naughton: £11,000. Sounds like your dad stands to be significantly out of pocket, should the tenant wish to take legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porca misèria Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Sounds like your dad stands to be significantly out of pocket, should the tenant wish to take legal action. £8.5k? Chickenfeed! This story shows real damages awarded against a landlord. More than three times higher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 To answer the OP from the police's point of view- Someone phones up and explains there is a landlord/tenant dispute in which he has probably illegally evicted his tenant. Complainant then makes allegations of drug and firearm possesion. What are the police supposed to do? They cant really act against the complainant for the illegal eviction because no one has made a counter-allegation against him. The drug and firearm allegations are nebulous and at best unsubstantiated, plus there's fairly good reason to think they might be malicious. If a copper went up to the magistrates and asked for a warrant on the basis of the above, they'd laugh him out of court........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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