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jobless2013

Redundancy

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First off: I'm a long time poster under a different ID but as you can guess from the title of the thread I have a problem that I do not feel can be dealt with under my normal ID.

Apologies to the Moderators for this breach of the forum's rules, I hope from the following that you will understand my reasons and allow me this indescretion, if you wish me to confirm my true identity (in confidence please) let me know.

This morning I was informed that my job is under threat and that my employer was consulting ahead of a propsed restructuring that would result in one of two positions going. The process will involve consultation and performance reviews with outside HR experts ahead of a decision, i.e. all of the legal steps required ahead of a redundancy will be taken correctly to protect the firm from further action.

It is of course a sham. The decision has already been made, the person responsible would not have started the process were there any chance that the other person would be made redundant, I'm out of a job as soon as the process is over.

Also for reasons that I will not go into the underlying logic for the restructuring is clearly faulty.

What do I do? I'm not sure I can think clearly today.

Is it in anyones interest to go through this charade? Is there any realistic chance of fighting it? There is an unambiguous need for my role to remain and I suspect that once the decision is made a replacement will be brought in within 6 months.

I think my best option is to volunteer to go ASAP without a fuss and try to get the best payout possible. I've been in post for quite a long time so the minimum statutory payoff is about £10,000, could I push for closer to £20,000 (i.e. about 6 months gross) and maybe settle for £15,000?

To be honest I hate working here so in some respects this is a blessing in disguise, my worry is how easy will it be to move into the next role.

Thanks to everyone in advance, I'm feeling pretty miserable today.

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First off: I'm a long time poster under a different ID but as you can guess from the title of the thread I have a problem that I do not feel can be dealt with under my normal ID.

Apologies to the Moderators for this breach of the forum's rules, I hope from the following that you will understand my reasons and allow me this indescretion, if you wish me to confirm my true identity (in confidence please) let me know.

This morning I was informed that my job is under threat and that my employer was consulting ahead of a propsed restructuring that would result in one of two positions going. The process will involve consultation and performance reviews with outside HR experts ahead of a decision, i.e. all of the legal steps required ahead of a redundancy will be taken correctly to protect the firm from further action.

It is of course a sham. The decision has already been made, the person responsible would not have started the process were there any chance that the other person would be made redundant, I'm out of a job as soon as the process is over.

Also for reasons that I will not go into the underlying logic for the restructuring is clearly faulty.

What do I do? I'm not sure I can think clearly today.

Is it in anyones interest to go through this charade? Is there any realistic chance of fighting it? There is an unambiguous need for my role to remain and I suspect that once the decision is made a replacement will be brought in within 6 months.

I think my best option is to volunteer to go ASAP without a fuss and try to get the best payout possible. I've been in post for quite a long time so the minimum statutory payoff is about £10,000, could I push for closer to £20,000 (i.e. about 6 months gross) and maybe settle for £15,000?

To be honest I hate working here so in some respects this is a blessing in disguise, my worry is how easy will it be to move into the next role.

Thanks to everyone in advance, I'm feeling pretty miserable today.

Sorry to hear about your situation. I'm not going to be any help on policy, but perhaps you should consider if you really want to stay employed by a firm that would treat you in such a manner.

Get your next job now, leave on your own terms. Walk out tall feeling good about your choices, not crawl out feeling miserable about somebody else's.

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No problem for the mods. I have made you up to full member in case anyone wants to PM you privately.

Thanks I appreciate it.

Gah ! Cover blown.

Not really, just joking. - Best of luck finding a new job to the OP whoever you are.

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Get your next job now, leave on your own terms. Walk out tall feeling good about your choices, not crawl out feeling miserable about somebody else's.

Screw that, redundancy is all about a payoff. :)

Don't walk till they pay you to walk. But shop around so you know you have somewhere to walk to - even if it is just a beach for 6 months.

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No problem for the mods. I have made you up to full member in case anyone wants to PM you privately.

Thanks

Thanks I appreciate it.

Gah ! Cover blown.

Not really, just joking. - Best of luck finding a new job to the OP whoever you are.

:lol:

Or is that a double bluff? :unsure:

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Can't offer any advice other than to say don't sweat it.

Been made redundant twice - first time I felt crushed and angry, second time, meh.

I ended up going self employed and starting a business where I now employ 9 people. Let me introduce you to stress.

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Screw that, redundancy is all about a payoff. :)

Don't walk till they pay you to walk. But shop around so you know you have somewhere to walk to - even if it is just a beach for 6 months.

I dunno. A job interview with one talking about how they got made redundant more often than not serves as leperous distilment to the interviewers ear canal.

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Sorry to hear about your news.

1. Don't resign.

2. Don't offer to go with a redundancy package - just yet.

3. In any conversations about redundancy YOU ASK rhetoric questions. 'If' and 'How' being good words. As in "If I were to go what would you offer me?" or "How much of a package would be on the table?"

In other words, you let them know that you are interested in going if the price is right. You basically set up a bargaining position but at the same time you must not seem overly keen to go.

It is going to cost money to get people in to do the HR process so you can save them costs by going.

Bottom line, you basically want them to make an offer, then to seem reluctant about the offer for a while and then get it bumped up before you actually go. Only you can judge how you approach this.

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It is of course a sham. The decision has already been made,

That's usually the case, at least in my experience. They just go through the legal motions but they normally have already decided in advance who to get rid of.

What do I do? I'm not sure I can think clearly today.

Like others said, I would make sure that I get as much redundancy pay as possible.

When it happened to me they offered a very generous payout to those taking voluntary redundancy, so I took that (also because it looks at lot better on the CV if you can state that it was your decision to leave), but of course like someone else said this might mean you can't claim benefits for 6 months (I'm not sure about this better doublecheck it).

I didn't care becase at the time I kne it was easy for me to find another job, but that might not be the case in your situation.

So you need to think about whether it will be easy for you to find a new job or whether you will have to depend on JSA and HB for quite a while. In the first case take voluntary redundancy (if they make you a good offer), in the second case you might want to go through the whole process so you can claim benefits.

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It is of course a sham. The decision has already been made, the person responsible would not have started the process were there any chance that the other person would be made redundant, I'm out of a job as soon as the process is over.

It maybe be a sham, but it can't be.

It is the job that is made redundant not the individual.

So the job ceases to exist and they cannot re-employ for a given time, which is longer than 6 months IIRC.

I have experienced the night of the long knives twice and I would never be an employee again.

Confusing at the time but,

Never looked back. Far happier, far more productive.

No such thing as a permanent job anyway.

Get another job or 'work' lined up if you can, but don't let on.

until then, best of luck.

Often it is the better employees that get made redundant when it's a sham, so there may well be some rough justice down the line.

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Have a detailed read of the advice on this site....

ACAS and Redundancy

Download the leaflets and booklets and go through them with a fine tooth comb. Look for parallels with your own situation, including the case studies.

Firms can make anyone they like redundant provided they follow a proper procedure and that the process for how they choose who is affected is absolutely fair.

Most firms get the last bit wrong as they feel they just have to dot the i's and cross the t's in line with the legislation concerning consultation and notice periods.

For example last in first out may not be a fair procedure. It would depend on how it was applied and it any of the roles which these persons did were transferred to others.

I acted as a convener on a large supermarket food distribution site for 10 years+ until I was made redundant (it was all of us as they closed the site) so have had a close involvement with the procedures and consultation procedures. In addition I have worked closely with ACAS and attended TUC courses where this has been the topic.

Clearly you don't want to (understandably) go into specifics but if you have a particular question after you have reviewed the material by all means PM me and I will do my best to answer it.

Another tip go to google and search this term 'choosing staff fairly for redundancy'.

Have a good read of the first 10 results. This will also give you a good understanding on how the firm must go about choosing who will be laid off and what they must do to ensure this is fairly done.

To answer your main point yes there is every case to fight it because if they get the procedure badly wrong they will open a tribunal route for unfair dismissal for you.

Yes even a redundancy where you have been paid out can be an unfair dismissal.

Did I mention the procedure had to absolutely fair? They may well be getting outside contractors in but any worth their salt will be telling them this anyway. If it is a case as you think that you have been chosen ahead of this procedure being carried out then it is likely the procedure would fail this test and that a tribunal would be able to establish this fact down the road.

Finally you need to consult your contract of employment or Company handbook. This will detail the terms you will be entitled to in redundancy. Often your entitlement will be in excess of the statutory awards.Your age will also play a part in this as will other employee benefits such as a car or other. Beware if they have you in and make you an offer. Of course consider it particularly if you are considering moving on but have a legal advisor go over it in conjunction with your contract before agreeing to it.

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Don't go to a regular lawyer! I found an "employment lawyer" and he was very good, when I was in similar circumstances! ;)

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Thanks for the help guys, I'll try to keep everyone up to date.

A few specific queries:

2. Don't offer to go with a redundancy package - just yet.

Any reason for this other than bargaining position?

I'm more inclined to have a frank and open discussion about this.

I'm in a reasonably strong position due to my length of service and to be honest I could cause them major problems if I wanted to and unless they're stupid they know this.

It maybe be a sham, but it can't be.

It is the job that is made redundant not the individual.

That's the theory. The reality is that it seems to be easy enough to dress things up to give the appearance of fairness but still arrive at a predetermined conclusion.

Make sure they follow the rules and get everything in writing.

The initial meeting was done from a script. They've employed outside HR experts, I doubt they'll make a mistake.

I've booked tomorow off as leave, I think I'll ask for a 5 minute meeting tomorrow evening. If they want to make a fair offer I'll take it, if not then I'll see how far hardballing it takes me.

Edit: I'm off to the pub to drown my sorrows.

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Sorry to hear your news. You are bound to be shocked but remember that if you volunteer for redundancy then you will not qualify for unemployment benefit for 6 months.

Hadn't thought of that, thanks.

My HPC fighting fund currently stands at a pretty healthy figure, I think that disqualifies me from most benefits.

Is JSA contributions based and not means tested for the first 6 months? I suppose it's only £70 a week so that's not the end of the world.

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I'm not sure about the haggling part but I think you've got the right idea.

If you're not due a large redundancy, get out quick. In your case get the best you can and get out of there. The 'consultation' is just a box ticking exercise and if law didn't demand it then no company would have them.

Sometimes redundancy can be a good thing and get you to make moves that you wouldn't have before, just don't get too lazy and lethargic in the downtime.

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Thanks for the help guys, I'll try to keep everyone up to date.

A few specific queries:

Any reason for this other than bargaining position?

I'm more inclined to have a frank and open discussion about this.

I'm in a reasonably strong position due to my length of service and to be honest I could cause them major problems if I wanted to and unless they're stupid they know this.

That's the theory. The reality is that it seems to be easy enough to dress things up to give the appearance of fairness but still arrive at a predetermined conclusion.

The initial meeting was done from a script. They've employed outside HR experts, I doubt they'll make a mistake.

I've booked tomorow off as leave, I think I'll ask for a 5 minute meeting tomorrow evening. If they want to make a fair offer I'll take it, if not then I'll see how far hardballing it takes me.

Edit: I'm off to the pub to drown my sorrows.

Don't be so sure they will not screw it up.... You will be surprised the number of blue chip firms who have bought the best advice available who have had to buy off claimants with no disclosure agreements.

If they decide they want to get rid of a face they will often do so despite what the experts tell them or what the law says because they think they can.

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D

Don't be so sure they will not screw it up.... You will be surprised the number of blue chip firms who have bought the best advice available who have had to buy off claimants with no disclosure agreements.

If they decide they want to get rid of a face they will often do so despite what the experts tell them or what the law says because they think they can.

Very true, err, so I hear. :ph34r:

Somebody I know had a similar problem a few years back. His or her impression was the managers handling it were trying to do things by the book but didn't really know what the rules were. This was helped by the American overlords of the company who assumed Californian employment laws applied in the UK.

The person had already taken copies of various potentially embarrassing emails over previous months and I gather things were dealt with satisfactorily over a "without prejudice" conversation. It's worth knowing about those. Look them up.

Other points:

  • Don't talk about the situation on forums, social networks etc (unless anonymously - you've done that right.)
  • Keep records of all communications and keep your communications polite (you don't sound like a numpty so you should be okay there).
  • Don't sign things just because the company tells you to. If they try anything like this then take a record of their request.
  • I gather dismissal cases find in favour of the company about 90% of the time, but typically cost the company twenty-odd grand in legal fees. Six months pay to go away and stop bothering them is a popular deal and I believe that's tax free so it's around nine months take-home pay for the average serf. Do you know anyone who's left that company under a cloud? It could be useful to know their track record.
  • Most importantly, don't take too much notice of advice from armchair lawyers on internet forums, especially me. Definitely be polite and definitely take records, but if you think things might be legally iffy then make an appointment with your local CAB in the first instance. If they tell you to get a solicitor then hold your nose and get one.

Good luck with it all and take care of yourself.

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My best advice is to call ACAS. My GF got made redundant recently and ACAS were very helpful.

Call them and explain the exact situation and they should be able to help.

Have a look at the thread I started by searching my profile.

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But, where's the sweepstake? Speculation as to the OP's true identity? Come on guys, show no mercy!

If things turn out ok i'll ask them to merge the accounts.

If not i've got bigger problems to worry about.

I think that that the mods have a good idea who I am based on e-mail addresses and IP.

Thanks again all.

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If there are any personal contacts or other electronic information you wish to preserve - grab them now and print them out. Start prepping your CV and getting your finances in order.

Similarly, if you think you are being treated unfairly - get personal copies of all relevant communications. Expect access to company phone, computer account etc to be revoked within minutes in the event of redundancy and you won't be surprised.

I have been on both sides of the redundancy table - both in terms of possibly being at risk and telling someone they were at risk (thankfully, I managed to argue the case to keep their role in the end, although perhaps unsurprisingly they walked not long afterwards).

The ideal situation is to leave with a redundancy payout, and also have work lined up.

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  • 242 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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