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Is It Better To Be A Miner Than A Thatcherite Estate Agent?

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The Torygraph offers up a nostalgic, sepia-drenched picture of the working-classes... being able to afford a home of their own. :lol:

http://blogs.telegra...e-estate-agent/

Is it better to be a miner than a Thatcherite estate agent?

By Harry Mount April 11th, 2013

Of course, I understand that, in those places where mines were the main employers, their closure led to misery, heartache and hatred for Margaret Thatcher – who didn't close them down, incidentally; she just refused to go on subsidising their massive losses and giving in to crazy union demands.

The shock waves from those closures continues today in those places. And you can see why affection persists for the old, close-knit communities, bound together by shared employment in the same industry.

But, for anyone who isn't from those places, who has never been a miner, why do they persist with the same nostalgic notion that it's better to be a nation of noble miners than a country of wicked Thatcherite estate agents?

Given the choice, I bet the commentators and protesters who attacked Margaret Thatcher this week would prefer to be in a comfy office, flogging reconditioned warehouses, rather than sweating 100 foot underground, bent double, hewing chunks out of the coalface.

But that's not the choice the well-educated, middle-class commentariat and protestors are faced with themselves – all they have to choose between are a host of well-paid graduate jobs, with no physical effort or danger.

What they've got to choose for other people – working-class people – is different. It's either a 19th century picture – of noble, horny-handed sons of the soil toiling away in agonising conditions – or a modernised, advanced picture – of the working classes improving themselves, going to university, getting better-paid jobs in the service industries and being able to buy their own home.

And what they prefer is the outdated, sepia-drenched picture – of the working classes being confined to dangerous, manual jobs, a memory of the days when they marched behind union banners in the glory days of great Labour politicians like Nye Bevan.

Of course, in a recession, people want jobs more than anything else. And, in those industrial areas that still haven't recovered from the 1970s and 80s, it's logical that they yearn for the industrial jobs that last made those places prosperous.

But Britain is no longer the world's miner – that title has moved to places where they can get the stuff out of the ground more cheaply. Britain is now a specialist in service industries. Those industries may not sound as romantic as mining, but they are a lot safer, more comfortable and, usually, better-paid – and most people would prefer to work in them.

The move from 19th century industry to service industry is progress – and those Luddite commentators and protesters don't like the sound of it – particularly if it means progress for the working classes.

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indeed - elements - tho not all by any means - of the modern labour movement, the self interested career unionists and champagne socialists - want to keep everyone else poor, as it increases their own power and prestige that way

I didn't fully understand this psychosis until I aquainted myself with Gordon Brown's highly paid management class and the disdain they showed for normal poeple

(it reminds me of the Munchausen's syndrome by Proxy where a mother deliberately harms her baby in order to garner more attention for herself)

Edited by Si1

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The Torygraph offers up a nostalgic, sepia-drenched picture of the working-classes... being able to afford a home of their own. :lol:

http://blogs.telegra...e-estate-agent/

The move from 19th century industry to service industry is progress – and those Luddite commentators and protesters don't like the sound of it – particularly if it means progress for the working classes.

A truly terrifying thing to say.

We do need primary and secondary industry, selling each other imported food and insurance is not progress,

we just need to work out we can do it efficiently with good management and techniques which were lacking in the 70s and 80s

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The Torygraph offers up a nostalgic, sepia-drenched picture of the working-classes... being able to afford a home of their own. :lol:

http://blogs.telegra...e-estate-agent/

"a host of well-paid graduate jobs"

Piss-taker Extraordinaire!

You can just see all the Grads (willing to pay up to 10x wage mortgages) lined up around the UK, as first time buyers

- in all these nearly bankrupt estate agent shops :rolleyes:

At least mining communities had their own clubs, bands, football teams, were well paid by the wages of the day (way above working class wage with overtime) and could afford a house if they wanted - backed up by a UNION (who could take on corrupted GOVTs like todays)

What is the choice today?

Edited by erranta

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The move from 19th century industry to service industry is progress – and those Luddite commentators and protesters don't like the sound of it – particularly if it means progress for the working classes.

A truly terrifying thing to say.

We do need primary and secondary industry, selling each other imported food and insurance is not progress,

we just need to work out we can do it efficiently with good management and techniques which were lacking in the 70s and 80s

no we don't, we have a division of labour, across international boundaries

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no we don't, we have a division of labour, across international boundaries

The Chinese started making cheap products, now they're making cars and planes, how long will it be until we need them for everything?

They scare me, how long is it going to be before we have Chinese accountants, Lawyers etc? They are simply more hungry than us

We need to retain basic skills and utilise our raw materials when it makes sense.

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The Chinese started making cheap products, now they're making cars and planes, how long will it be until we need them for everything?

They scare me, how long is it going to be before we have Chinese accountants, Lawyers etc? They are simply more hungry than us

We need to retain basic skills and utilise our raw materials when it makes sense.

+1

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At least mining communities had their own clubs, bands, football teams, were well paid by the wages of the day (way above working class wage with overtime) and could afford a house if they wanted - backed up by a UNION (who could take on corrupted GOVTs like todays)

Well paid because the unions could blackmail their employers via threat of industrial disputes to get paid more than their market rates.

It's no surprise there is little union power when the economy has changed to becoming small businesses all in different fields, in competition with one another.

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Well paid because the unions could blackmail their employers via threat of industrial disputes to get paid more than their market rates.

It's no surprise there is little union power when the economy has changed to becoming small businesses all in different fields, in competition with one another.

you haven't read many HPC threads for a few years then - get new glasses

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The thing with China, I believe the only way they are as successful as they are is because of huge amounts of very cheap labour.

To think that they can continue the way they have been for ever is laughable, sooner or later the worker bee's will be demanding better wages, better living conditions and better environmental conditions and eventually democracy.

It happened in every other developing nation and will happen there, then the corporates will be off for the next source of cheap worker bee's.

I think in part this is the reason for China's massive expansion into Africa, not so much the worker bee aspect but the natural resources side of things.

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At least mining communities had their own clubs, bands, football teams, were well paid by the wages of the day (way above working class wage with overtime) and could afford a house if they wanted - backed up by a UNION (who could take on corrupted GOVTs like todays)

That is exactly the problem, it was running at a huge loss and backed by a unions with their own agendas.

Thanks for pointing that out though

I have already stated we need primary industry.... but only when it's done right.

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The thing with China, I believe the only way they are as successful as they are is because of huge amounts of very cheap labour.

To think that they can continue the way they have been for ever is laughable, sooner or later the worker bee's will be demanding better wages, better living conditions and better environmental conditions and eventually democracy.

It happened in every other developing nation and will happen there, then the corporates will be off for the next source of cheap worker bee's.

I think in part this is the reason for China's massive expansion into Africa, not so much the worker bee aspect but the natural resources side of things.

I am inclined to disagree.

They are DESPERATE to attain more, they churn out 750,000 graduates a year who

a) don't want to make cheap stuff

B) are more than capable of doing more

c) are incredibly hard working unlike most in this country who stumble out of university with a hangover and a degree in media studies (sorry got carried away)

We on the other hand have

a) Accountants charging £100+ per hour

B) Solicitors £250+ per hour - and you try getting hold of yours when you need to

etc etc

We need to be more aware of this

Edited by robo1968

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Given the choice, I bet the commentators and protesters who attacked Margaret Thatcher this week would prefer to be in a comfy office, flogging reconditioned warehouses, rather than sweating 100 foot underground, bent double, hewing chunks out of the coalface.

He might be fully qualified to report about conditions in offices but the plonker is not qualified to talk about mining.

Last coal face I worked on the two metre high coal was cut by a machine, the operator controlled it with a remote control slung around his neck on a strap and stood back from the machine (a "shearer") while it was in operation. Yes the actual cutting of coal is as tough as operating your TV remote. We won't bother mentioning such things as maintenance, installation, ventilation, water pumping and keeping the coal face and the rest of the mine supplied, powered, and safe which also require a team of highly skilled professionals. You just stick to your troglodytes with picks image. You can't be bothered and get off your ass and visit a modern mine anyway, and in a few years you'll have to travel overseas to do such a thing which will be a good excuse not to.

But never mind that, the futures washing. Each others washing. After that the next logical step is for each of us to pay ourselves for doing our own washing. Reduces counter party risk you see.

Oh and for the record, I'd MUCH rather be mining that sat in an office. Mining was a challenging adventure every day. My office life is miserable depressing shite. So there you go Mr. clever reporter man, your just plain wrong. Everyone doesn't have sedentary genes like you, some of us like productive physical work.

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He might be fully qualified to report about conditions in offices but the plonker is not qualified to talk about mining.

Last coal face I worked on the two metre high coal was cut by a machine, the operator controlled it with a remote control slung around his neck on a strap and stood back from the machine (a "shearer") while it was in operation. Yes the actual cutting of coal is as tough as operating your TV remote. We won't bother mentioning such things as maintenance, installation, ventilation, water pumping and keeping the coal face and the rest of the mine supplied, powered, and safe which also require a team of highly skilled professionals. You just stick to your troglodytes with picks image. You can't be bothered and get off your ass and visit a modern mine anyway, and in a few years you'll have to travel overseas to do such a thing which will be a good excuse not to.

But never mind that, the futures washing. Each others washing. After that the next logical step is for each of us to pay ourselves for doing our own washing. Reduces counter party risk you see.

Oh and for the record, I'd MUCH rather be mining that sat in an office. Mining was a challenging adventure every day. My office life is miserable depressing shite. So there you go Mr. clever reporter man, your just plain wrong. Everyone doesn't have sedentary genes like you, some of us like productive physical work.

+1 well put

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That is exactly the problem, it was running at a huge loss and backed by a unions with their own agendas.

Thanks for pointing that out though

I have already stated we need primary industry.... but only when it's done right.

More shit-stirring

Thatcher and the Tories moved massive Taxpayer subsidies over to Gas and Nuclear to make coal appear more expensive.

That was their outright, elitist, Fraudulant activity to break coal-mining & the power of the Unions.

I agree that the "worked out" pits had to go though. There is hundreds of years of coal stocks left underground.

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At least mining communities had their own clubs, bands, football teams, were well paid by the wages of the day (way above working class wage with overtime) and could afford a house if they wanted - backed up by a UNION (who could take on corrupted GOVTs like todays)

So who financed the well paid wages?.....the customers buying the coal, then we had cheap north sea gas...we could import cheaper coal from Poland now if we wanted it...coal was getting more expensive to extract in some of the mines, larger towns had the clean air act, central gas heating was becoming popular, people were bricking up their fireplaces and knocking down the chimney breasts for more room....would those mines still be viable, in existence and affordable today, I think MT just killed the industry a tad before its time....but time was fast running out.

Sure communities died that was not so good. ;)

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More shit-stirring

Thatcher and the Tories moved massive Taxpayer subsidies over to Gas and Nuclear to make coal appear more expensive.

That was their outright, elitist, Fraudulant activity to break coal-mining & the power of the Unions.

I agree that the "worked out" pits had to go though. There is hundreds of years of coal stocks left underground.

And when can do it economically then we should do it. even subsidised to be more selfsufficient but not under the cosh of unions.

It is maths, plain and simple, if you are on the side that loses out then you can get passionate but it is still just maths

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And when can do it economically then we should do it. even subsidised to be more selfsufficient but not under the cosh of unions.

It is maths, plain and simple, if you are on the side that loses out then you can get passionate but it is still just maths

Yeh

like todays elite run fekkin rip-off companies

Tesco, Poundland, Primark etc etc is staffed by Govt sponsored and TAXPAYER SUBSIDISED shelf stackers

- because todays UNFETTERED Big Business cant be arsed to pay TAXES or pay people a LIVING WAGE

They are forced to rely on rent rebates and tax credits/benefits just to keep a roof over their heads

Big Business FRAUDS + Maffs pure and simple

:lol:

Edited by erranta

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Yeh

like todays elite run fekkin rip-off companies

Tesco, Poundland, Primark etc etc is staffed by Govt sponsored and TAXPAYER SUBSIDISED shelf stackers

- because todays UNFETTERED Big Business cant be arsed to pay TAXES or pay people a LIVING WAGE

Maffs pure and simple

:lol:

Please read my post properly, I wrote subsidised....

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He might be fully qualified to report about conditions in offices but the plonker is not qualified to talk about mining.

Last coal face I worked on the two metre high coal was cut by a machine, the operator controlled it with a remote control slung around his neck on a strap and stood back from the machine (a "shearer") while it was in operation. Yes the actual cutting of coal is as tough as operating your TV remote. We won't bother mentioning such things as maintenance, installation, ventilation, water pumping and keeping the coal face and the rest of the mine supplied, powered, and safe which also require a team of highly skilled professionals. You just stick to your troglodytes with picks image. You can't be bothered and get off your ass and visit a modern mine anyway, and in a few years you'll have to travel overseas to do such a thing which will be a good excuse not to.

But never mind that, the futures washing. Each others washing. After that the next logical step is for each of us to pay ourselves for doing our own washing. Reduces counter party risk you see.

Oh and for the record, I'd MUCH rather be mining that sat in an office. Mining was a challenging adventure every day. My office life is miserable depressing shite. So there you go Mr. clever reporter man, your just plain wrong. Everyone doesn't have sedentary genes like you, some of us like productive physical work.

Deep mined coal has as much relevance to modern society as typhus, child slave labour or horse drawn carriages.

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Clearly being reliant on imports for energy is far better for national security.

"Coal supplies 40% of the UK's electricity." :rolleyes:

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The Chinese started making cheap products, now they're making cars and planes, how long will it be until we need them for everything?

They scare me, how long is it going to be before we have Chinese accountants, Lawyers etc? They are simply more hungry than us

We need to retain basic skills and utilise our raw materials when it makes sense.

no it's not - their currency is cheaper than ours, that's all, and this won't last forever

no big deal mate

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no it's not - their currency is cheaper than ours, that's all, and this won't last forever

no big deal mate

I hope you're right but I just don't like the word 'hope'

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But never mind that, the futures washing. Each others washing. After that the next logical step is for each of us to pay ourselves for doing our own washing. Reduces counter party risk you see.

Next step? See "rent, imputed" currently making up over 8% of GDP,

Peter.

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