Is Margaret Thatcher Our Very Own Emmanuel Goldstein?

[DeepLurker]

Over the last few days, there's been enormous amounts of criticism directed at Thatcher. Some of it is inarguably justified - I don't think that anyone will defend her record on the Poll Tax, for example. Some of it is ambivalent - was her scorched-earth combat with the NUM the best way to handle the unions?

However, some of the criticism directed at her strikes me as being complete fabrications:

• "She was responsible for the bank crash of 2008".
  
• "She closed down all the pits" (I think that it's been made clear that her predecessor actually closed down more).
  
• "I lost my job in 1984, and she's been stopping me ever since from finding another one".
  
• "She led us into the second Gulf War".
  
• "Under her reign, the police were nasty" (not sure that Brazilian plumbers will testify that since then, the Met have become all touchy-feely).
  
• "She destroyed our manufacturing industry" (of course, not a single factory has outsourced in the 2 decades since she stepped down!).
  
• etc...
  

Then this morning I had a revelation: Thatcher is actually our very own Emmanuel Goldstein. Quick refresher: in the novel 1984, he was a shadowy kind-of-terrorist enemy of the state, and the cause of virtually everything that went wrong. Likewise, Thatcher is still being blamed for everything that goes wrong in this country, 2 decades after she moved out of Number 10.

Hence this quick poll - just wanted to see what other forumers think of my idea.

[Rain'ard]

Over the last few days, there's been enormous amounts of criticism directed at Thatcher. Some of it is inarguably justified - I don't think that anyone will defend her record on the Poll Tax, for example. Some of it is ambivalent - was her scorched-earth combat with the NUM the best way to handle the unions?

However, some of the criticism directed at her strikes me as being complete fabrications:

• "She was responsible for the bank crash of 2008".
• "She closed down all the pits" (I think that it's been made clear that her predecessor actually closed down more).
• "I lost my job in 1984, and she's been stopping me ever since from finding another one".
• "She led us into the second Gulf War".
• "Under her reign, the police were nasty" (not sure that Brazilian plumbers will testify that since then, the Met have become all touchy-feely).
• "She destroyed our manufacturing industry" (of course, not a single factory has outsourced in the 2 decades since she stepped down!).
• etc...

Then this morning I had a revelation: Thatcher is actually our very own Emmanuel Goldstein. Quick refresher: in the novel 1984, he was a shadowy kind-of-terrorist enemy of the state, and the cause of virtually everything that went wrong. Likewise, Thatcher is still being blamed for everything that goes wrong in this country, 2 decades after she moved out of Number 10.

Hence this quick poll - just wanted to see what other forumers think of my idea.

No much worse

[Nuggets Mahoney]

Nope

Osama bin Laden was, virtually line by line, our very own Emmanuel Goldstein

If you're looking for an Orwell analogy, Snowball is nearer to MT impo

[Nuggets Mahoney]

In Nineteen Eighty Four, Goldstein is a shadowy figure, based overseas, allegedly masterminding an existential war against the state. He's not used as an excuse to explain past foul ups. He's employed as a justification for authoritarianism in the here and now. It's never clear how powerful he is, or even whether he exists or not.

Snowball helps start the revolution on Animal Farm, gets turfed out of the farm in a power struggle and is then blamed retrospectively, with the aid of some rewriting of the history books, for anything bad that happens on the farm.

[Executive Sadman]

I really don't get how people can go on telly and sound so utterly pathetic.

'Margaret Thatcher ruined my life' 'Margaret cost me my marriage etc etc'

I guess i might feel the same way about Gordon brown pricing me out of a home and putting my life on hold for a decade. But then if i was willing enough, i could probably get the hell out of this country.

This isnt about Thatcher, its about a generation of people who are incapable at looking in the mirror and blaming themselves.

[DeepLurker]

Nope

Osama bin Laden was, virtually line by line, our very own Emmanuel Goldstein

Agreed.

If you're looking for an Orwell analogy, Snowball is nearer to MT impo

Interesting - I read Animal Farm as a kid, forgotten most of it. Reading the Wikipedia link that you provide above, he does seem to fit better what I feel is happening at the moment. Thanks for the info!

[AThirdWay]

This isnt about Thatcher, its about a generation of people who are incapable at looking in the mirror and blaming themselves.

For what? Turning their town into a wasteland?

[RichB]

For what? Turning their town into a wasteland?

Windows and bus stops very rarely smash themselves, nor does graffiti write itself... Central government doesn't impose parking restrictions in the town center, nor does it enforce planning decisions. Thatcher did not approve the application of the megastore out of town, nor did she make marketeers compete purely on price.

[robo1968]

I really don't get how people can go on telly and sound so utterly pathetic.

'Margaret Thatcher ruined my life' 'Margaret cost me my marriage etc etc'

I guess i might feel the same way about Gordon brown pricing me out of a home and putting my life on hold for a decade. But then if i was willing enough, i could probably get the hell out of this country.

This isnt about Thatcher, its about a generation of people who are incapable at looking in the mirror and blaming themselves.

You mean you'd leave a certain place and go to another instead of staying, blaming and moaning for the rest of your life?

What kind of an attitude is that?

[Nuggets Mahoney]

Agreed.

Interesting - I read Animal Farm as a kid, forgotten most of it. Reading the Wikipedia link that you provide above, he does seem to fit better what I feel is happening at the moment. Thanks for the info!

All a matter of personal interpretation, naturally

While we're on the subject, I understand why people pick up and run with the idea that Nu-Labour was Tory-Lite and that Blair was Son of Thatcher. However, that's a carefully crafted cop-out impo. The intention being to feed the claim that 'Thatcher is to blame for everything bad that happened before, during and after she was in office'.

'Did Nu-Labour do something awful? Oh, that's Thatcher's fault. The real Labour party wouldn't do that'

The parliamentary Labour party was on-board with the wars, the crackdowns on civil liberties, the acceleration of immigration, PFI, the spread of casino capitalism, all sorts of shameful policies which either had no roots in Thatcherism or that had roots in Thatcherism which it could have easily reversed in the decade plus Nu-Labour was in power.

Claiming this was all Thatcher-lite and that they were powerless to stop it is a lie.

Whether we mourn its passing or not, the traditional Labour Party died with John Smith. What was left was a brand ...and a lot of mugs happy to keep buying the brand even though the ingredients had changed completely.

[AThirdWay]

Windows and bus stops very rarely smash themselves, nor does graffiti write itself... Central government doesn't impose parking restrictions in the town center, nor does it enforce planning decisions. Thatcher did not approve the application of the megastore out of town, nor did she make marketeers compete purely on price.

Your first sentence is a direct result of the removal of a town's single source of income, and spare me any Tebbit quotes.

The rest of your post relates to town center's. As a direct result of Thatcher policies, WHOLE TOWNS were devastated.

[AThirdWay]

You mean you'd leave a certain place and go to another instead of staying, blaming and moaning for the rest of your life?

What kind of an attitude is that?

Lot's of people were forced to up-sticks after their home town and community was devastated by Thatchers policies. Do you think they should thank her for that?

[sleepwello'nights]

Lot's of people were forced to up-sticks after their home town and community was devastated by Thatchers policies. Do you think they should thank her for that?

As I recall Corby was very reliant on the steel industry. Since the steelworks closed lots of other industry took its place. Why is this town different to the others that you claim were devastated.

My father was born and brought up in the Welsh valleys, the village he lived in was heavily dependent on the coal industry. In the 1930's he along with the rest of his family moved to London because of the depression. These things happen, or are they all MT's fault?

[AThirdWay]

As I recall Corby was very reliant on the steel industry. Since the steelworks closed lots of other industry took its place. Why is this town different to the others that you claim were devastated.

My father was born and brought up in the Welsh valleys, the village he lived in was heavily dependent on the coal industry. In the 1930's he along with the rest of his family moved to London because of the depression. These things happen, or are they all MT's fault?

According to Wiki, this led to 30% unemployment in Corby. Luckily they had a Conservative MP!

"New industry was subsequently attracted to the town and by 1991 unemployment had returned to the national average.[10] The recovery of Corby was explained in 1990 by John Redwood, then a junior minister in the Department of Trade and Industry, as being a result of the establishment of an Enterprise Zone, the promotion of Corby by the government, the work of private investors and the skills of the work force. Others believe the town's recovery was significantly assisted by its central location and substantial grants from the EU.[11][12]"

We in Scotland had no such help, and heavy industry jobs were continually lost through the 80/90's.

As for your father in the 30's, much as I'd like to pin his woe's on Thatcher, I can't. As a child of the 60/70's, I only feel qualified to comment from that period on.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

All a matter of personal interpretation, naturally

While we're on the subject, I understand why people pick up and run with the idea that Nu-Labour was Tory-Lite and that Blair was Son of Thatcher. However, that's a carefully crafted cop-out impo. The intention being to feed the claim that 'Thatcher is to blame for everything bad that happened before, during and after she was in office'.

'Did Nu-Labour do something awful? Oh, that's Thatcher's fault. The real Labour party wouldn't do that'

The parliamentary Labour party was on-board with the wars, the crackdowns on civil liberties, the acceleration of immigration, PFI, the spread of casino capitalism, all sorts of shameful policies which either had no roots in Thatcherism or that had roots in Thatcherism which it could have easily reversed in the decade plus Nu-Labour was in power.

Claiming this was all Thatcher-lite and that they were powerless to stop it is a lie.

Whether we mourn its passing or not, the traditional Labour Party died with John Smith. What was left was a brand ...and a lot of mugs happy to keep buying the brand even though the ingredients had changed completely.

Faisal Islam tweeted yesterday about a Tony Blair piece in this months New Statesman that Labour should rebut the idea that any of this is their fault.

Then he posted a link to something from 2005 about Blair writing to the FSA to leave the banks alone...

[erranta]

All a matter of personal interpretation, naturally

While we're on the subject, I understand why people pick up and run with the idea that Nu-Labour was Tory-Lite and that Blair was Son of Thatcher. However, that's a carefully crafted cop-out impo. The intention being to feed the claim that 'Thatcher is to blame for everything bad that happened before, during and after she was in office'.

'Did Nu-Labour do something awful? Oh, that's Thatcher's fault. The real Labour party wouldn't do that'

The parliamentary Labour party was on-board with the wars, the crackdowns on civil liberties, the acceleration of immigration, PFI, the spread of casino capitalism, all sorts of shameful policies which either had no roots in Thatcherism or that had roots in Thatcherism which it could have easily reversed in the decade plus Nu-Labour was in power.

Claiming this was all Thatcher-lite and that they were powerless to stop it is a lie.

Whether we mourn its passing or not, the traditional Labour Party died with John Smith. What was left was a brand ...and a lot of mugs happy to keep buying the brand even though the ingredients had changed completely.

Gawd you rant on and on

I don't care if its Thatch or Blair

Blair used to secretly invite Thatcher around to advise him on policies! MEH (An ex-Oxfordian pow-wow)

PFI started on John Majors watch

(voter deception and public vote buying on the super-sly ie they were building hospitals etc and not telling the fawning sheep that it would cost them and their grandchildren 6 Times the cost over 30 years and they still didn't own it)

Teflon Tony at least 32degree Royal Arch Mason (why nothing sticks on him cos all the others hide it)

http://www.dailymail...g-evidence.html

[Als]

I find it extremely weird that Thatcher is viewed as a "Libertarian". She was most definitely seen as being quite an extreme authoritarian at the time. I remember her police army on Merseyside as a teenager in the 1980s. They regularly framed people for offences they didn't commit and they physically beat people. If that is "Libertarianism" then libertarianism is a disgusting thing to wipe our arses with.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

rant[/i]-a' timestamp='1365762838' post='909302358']

Gawd you rant on and on

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. I feel a bit left out not being subject to a numerological analysis

I don't care if its Thatch or Blair

No, nor do I.

[erranta]

I find it extremely weird that Thatcher is viewed as a "Libertarian". She was most definitely seen as being quite an extreme authoritarian at the time. I remember her police army on Merseyside as a teenager in the 1980s. They regularly framed people for offences they didn't commit and they physically beat people. If that is "Libertarianism" then libertarianism is a disgusting thing to wipe our arses with.

The Ding-Dong song

dd=44

"Maggie's Good Riddance Party" GG=77 DD=44

Turn backs on coffin ff=66

Thatch is deliberately being given a 'veiled' state funeral

- cos 'they' know "Dumbed Down" ignorants of the Bible can be mislead against it's teaching throughout the country!

[erranta]

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. I feel a bit left out not being subject to a numerological analysis

No, nor do I.

I had fun making that name up

Also confuses the fekk out of the masons

[Executive Sadman]

For what? Turning their town into a wasteland?

Thats my point. They are so pathetic they literally cant survive without govt handouts. No one 'turned' anything into a wasteland. Millions came to the UK since 1980 and have managed quite fine. What they are saying when they say 'Fatcha ruined my life' is they are incapable of living without politicians giving them something for nothing.

[Executive Sadman]

Your first sentence is a direct result of the removal of a town's single source of income, and spare me any Tebbit quotes.

The rest of your post relates to town center's. As a direct result of Thatcher policies, WHOLE TOWNS were devastated.

Why? Cant handle them? Truth hurts I guess. The whiners are pathetic.

[Executive Sadman]

Lot's of people were forced to up-sticks after their home town and community was devastated by Thatchers policies. Do you think they should thank her for that?

You mention Corby in the next post. If their parents could travel 500 miles from Scotland to Corby to find work, why were their 70s/80s era offspring incapable of travelling 50 miles to pretty much anywhere South and East of Corby that wasnt industrialized to find work?

I'll repeat. These people are pathetic.

[SHERWICK]

You mention Corby in the next post. If their parents could travel 500 miles from Scotland to Corby to find work, why were their 70s/80s era offspring incapable of travelling 50 miles to pretty much anywhere South and East of Corby that wasnt industrialized to find work?

I'll repeat. These people are pathetic.

My family and I have moved here there and everywhere to find work, including in and out of the UK several times.

Is this a terrible thing? Not for us! Variety is the spice of life!

[Goat]

I find it extremely weird that Thatcher is viewed as a "Libertarian". She was most definitely seen as being quite an extreme authoritarian at the time. I remember her police army on Merseyside as a teenager in the 1980s. They regularly framed people for offences they didn't commit and they physically beat people. If that is "Libertarianism" then libertarianism is a disgusting thing to wipe our arses with.

They did that before Thatcher came along and they're still doing it today. Also the PACE Act 1984 was a hell of a lot better than what went on before then.