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Bitcoin...the New Unbacked Etf


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NK is controlled by China...the Hype we see on the TV is just that...hype. and an online digital currency becomes plain stupid in a world of EMP killed tech.

Odd that as BTC started to rise quick, then began to fall, its now very difficult to even buy one.

I smell a controlling rat stoking this baby.

you are free to study the open source program code to allay your gut speculations that bitcoins are somehow centrally controlled.

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you are free to study the open source program code to allay your gut speculations that bitcoins are somehow centrally controlled.

so why are they so hard to obtain...all of a sudden?

You see, my whole point in the OP was that while they seem a good idea, like cash, it is what society does TO them that is the problem..

today, we see that its very hard indeed, to even buy them

UK dealers closed, international transfers required, multiple wallets for security...really, the ticks for it are rapidly being replaced by ticks against.

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so why are they so hard to obtain...all of a sudden?

You see, my whole point in the OP was that while they seem a good idea, like cash, it is what society does TO them that is the problem..

today, we see that its very hard indeed, to even buy them

UK dealers closed, international transfers required, multiple wallets for security...really, the ticks for it are rapidly being replaced by ticks against.

They aren't hard to buy except from the UK and that's mostly to do with the money laundering regulations. If you read up carefully you'll find that out. The money involved has got too big.

From the US or Europe or various other places, it's easy.

International transfers are for the exchanges, not for regular Bitcoin purchasing. That's quite different, but gives you cheaper prices.

You don't need multiple wallets at all, you can have just one. Having more than one is a security thing if you're worried about stuff.

Bitcoins may be in a bubble and they may die off completely but be critical for the right reasons and not the wrong ones. There is certainly no one controlling them. The media don't even know what to make of them. I would expect a few media buttons to be pressed by any well stocked early adopters if they are savvy and known investors tho, just like with any other market.

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so why are they so hard to obtain...all of a sudden?

You see, my whole point in the OP was that while they seem a good idea, like cash, it is what society does TO them that is the problem..

today, we see that its very hard indeed, to even buy them

UK dealers closed, international transfers required, multiple wallets for security...really, the ticks for it are rapidly being replaced by ticks against.

No conspiracy. Bitoins are hard to obtain and will become increasingly hard to obtain as explained by Gresham's Law. Bad money(govt fiat, in this case) decreed by legal tender laws drives sound money out of circulation. The more unsound the money, the harder it becomes to entice the sound money out, until eventually the sound money becomes priceless quoted in the unsound money.

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No conspiracy. Bitoins are hard to obtain and will become increasingly hard to obtain as explained by Gresham's Law. Bad money(govt fiat, in this case) decreed by legal tender laws drives sound money out of circulation. The more unsound the money, the harder it becomes to entice the sound money out, until eventually the sound money becomes priceless quoted in the unsound money.

no...they are hard to obtain as dealers seem to be closing down everywhere...If It read the thread correctly...This is NOT Greshams law or S+D hoarding or anything.

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no...they are hard to obtain as dealers seem to be closing down everywhere...If It read the thread correctly...This is NOT Greshams law or S+D hoarding or anything.

They are being traded, the price is moving.

dealers are closing and new ones springing up daily. You can always go to a local cash dealer.

Gresham's Law, observed over 100s of years has not and will never be suspended. It is common sense.

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so why are they so hard to obtain...all of a sudden?

You see, my whole point in the OP was that while they seem a good idea, like cash, it is what society does TO them that is the problem..

today, we see that its very hard indeed, to even buy them

UK dealers closed, international transfers required, multiple wallets for security...really, the ticks for it are rapidly being replaced by ticks against.

TBH, they have always been difficult to get hold of in the UK (EDIT: apart from during short periods when it is easy). There have been many cases where banks have locked the bank accounts of exchanges with little/no warning, then forced them to be closed afterwards. As to why, we can only speculate, but I suspect the UK banking cartel doesn't like the idea of helping Bitcoins become established here. The same is probably true for the state.

In contrast, in the USA you can even buy them over the counter at some banks (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_bitcoins). They are far easier to get hold of from what I can see and the government has given legal guidance for exchanges. That is, they have said that Bitcoins are legal, but the exchanges need to be regulated.

Ofc, a collapse in demand for savings in Sterling would sound the death knell of a currency. Hot potato time, as it were. Where demand plummets, so does its price, which feeds the sell off.

Bitcoin is the antithesis of the state controlled banking cartel. Do you really think the UK, which relies so heavily on the finance sector, is going to go down without a fight? I doubt it. They will still lose though and the UK economy will suffer if it is left out of the Bitcoin market in the longer term.

P.S. localbitcoins.com has worked fine for me so far. There is a bit of a mark up, but that will fall with competition I suspect. The current centralised exchanges will likely become less essential for buying Bitcoins with time.

Edited by Traktion
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BTW, I also read about a cheap way to convert Bitcoins to GBP. If you are a merchant, you can use BitPay.com and invoice/pay yourself. I'm in the process of setting up a merchant account for a new website I'm working on (I'm starting a Bitcoin related side line), so will let you know how easy that is. However, I suspect it may be easier/cheaper to convert to GBP if/when you need to. It's worth considering, anyway.

Interesting. I'm trying to figure out a low cost way to sell BTC and get then into GBP into my bank account with little luck. This could be a way. If we had the USD / EURO would be easy. I suspect using Bitpay the exchange rate wont be great into GBP?

What I really want to do is sell them in $ Dollars on Mt.Gox then get this transfered as GBP direct to a UK bank account. The first bit is easy, you just transfer your BTC into a Mt.Gox wallet account then sell them. But getting the $ USD out of there and into a UK £ GBP bank account seems hard! I'm awaiting answers to Mt.Gox via email.

One thought I had was to open a personal $ USD based account in the UK with someone I already bank with like Natwest. Then in theory you could have Gox wire transfer your sale funds to your USD account then transfer them between USD/GBP accounts with the same bank with some forex exchange charges.

Just seems such a bloody hassle, And I thought buying them was hard enough!

M

BTW, plenty of vendors selling BTC now on Ebay.co.uk!! Seems dodgy to me due to Paypal chargebacks. Just buy one, wait a week, say you never got it and ask Paypal for a refund. How can the seller prove them transfered you a BTC over the BTC network?

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Interesting. I'm trying to figure out a low cost way to sell BTC and get then into GBP into my bank account with little luck. This could be a way. If we had the USD / EURO would be easy. I suspect using Bitpay the exchange rate wont be great into GBP?

What I really want to do is sell them in $ Dollars on Mt.Gox then get this transfered as GBP direct to a UK bank account. The first bit is easy, you just transfer your BTC into a Mt.Gox wallet account then sell them. But getting the $ USD out of there and into a UK £ GBP bank account seems hard! I'm awaiting answers to Mt.Gox via email.

One thought I had was to open a personal $ USD based account in the UK with someone I already bank with like Natwest. Then in theory you could have Gox wire transfer your sale funds to your USD account then transfer them between USD/GBP accounts with the same bank with some forex exchange charges.

Just seems such a bloody hassle, And I thought buying them was hard enough!

M

BTW, plenty of vendors selling BTC now on Ebay.co.uk!! Seems dodgy to me due to Paypal chargebacks. Just buy one, wait a week, say you never got it and ask Paypal for a refund. How can the seller prove them transfered you a BTC over the BTC network?

Ha! It sounds like you're having fun! ;)

Back when I used MtGox last, they did the transfer back into GBP for me. I think I got about £950 of £1000 after various charges along the way.

My advice would be never to sell Bitcoins for PayPal, as the payments can be reversed. I'm fairly certain that PayPal have stated that they shouldn't be used to buy Bitcoins too.

Using localbitcoins.com you get the advantages of escrow and a fairly easy to use market place. As I've said above, they're not the cheapest, but compared to fiddling/faffing about with the current Bitcoin exchanges, it's very easy. I've made two transactions so far, with different people, and both went fine. The only issue I had was my bank not sending the money quickly on Sunday.

Once you have your hands on the Bitcoins, you realise just how much easier they are to move about than using traditional banks. It's fast, cheap and easy in comparison, especially between countries.

Edited by Traktion
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Ha! It sounds like you're having fun! ;)

Back when I used MtGox last, they did the transfer back into GBP for me. I think I got about £950 of £1000 after various charges along the way.

I thought I read somewhere on the net that Mt.Gox don't accept transfers in / out now in GBP due to withdrawal of UK banking services? Withdrawal of UK based GBP banking services for Bitcoin seems to be a common thing. I am waiting for an email reply, they are in Japan I beleive?

Has the removal of Barclays ping it been confirmed for Blockchain.info ?

Funny when you read this back and talk of Japan, USD into GBP via bitcoin and withdrawal of UK banking services it realy sounds like money laundering, but it isn't!

M

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I thought I read somewhere on the net that Mt.Gox don't accept transfers in / out now in GBP due to withdrawal of UK banking services? Withdrawal of UK based GBP banking services for Bitcoin seems to be a common thing. I am waiting for an email reply, they are in Japan I beleive?

Yes, but they accept foreign currency to their Japanese account. They can also do the reverse, or at least they used to.

In the past they had a UK bank account too, but that got shut down, unfortunately.

Has the removal of Barclays ping it been confirmed for Blockchain.info ?

Funny when you read this back and talk of Japan, USD into GBP via bitcoin and withdrawal of UK banking services it realy sounds like money laundering, but it isn't!

M

I emailed blockchain.info and received no reply about UK banking services. I asked them again a week later and still have had no reply. Considering their support was pretty sharp when I had another problem, their silence speaks volumes. I don't know what is going on with them, but I suspect they may have had their account pulled.

Considering sending Bitcoins to someone in Japan is dead easy, it just demonstrates how archaic the established systems are. They're ripe for replacement! B)

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I'm confused by LocalBitCoins.com - why is there such variance in price? Surely they should all be the current exchange value?

...and what's this business about location of sellers and selling face-to-face? How does that work?

It's like a bunch of market stalls, all haggling for business. Instead of them all selling their wares into one market, with the sale price becoming the spot price, it's all a bit more... organic! :)

I've not tried a face-to-face sale, but I've bought from 2 sellers using the escrow. That actually felt pretty safe and you end up having a wee chat with the sellers, which keeps it friendly.

I suppose OTC is more anonymous, as you can buy with cash. However, there is probably more risk in such a transaction. The nearest person to me is about 30 miles away, so OTC isn't much use to me yet.

The good thing about localbitcoins.com (and similar) is that they distribute the exchanges too, which are currently a big, easy target for the banks to freeze out.

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I'm confused by LocalBitCoins.com - why is there such variance in price? Surely they should all be the current exchange value?

Ah yes, this confused me at first. Here's my understanding having bought and sold on localbitcoins.com a few times ...

Don't forget that technically, there is no one true "current exchange value" - there are £1000s of bitcoins being traded all over the globe every minute for various prices. But since the MtGox USD exchange is so big, people tend to rely on the price there as the nearest thing to the current exchange value.

When offering to buy or sell bitcoins on localbitcoins.com, you can choose:

  • a specific price

  • a percentage above or below the latest (last) MtGox USD price converted into GBP

  • a percentage above or below the daily average MtGox USD price converted into GBP (can be quite different to the latest price 'cos the price is so volatile)

  • a custom pricing formula

An advert to sell bitcoins might demand a high price because:

  • the seller is willing to trade very small amounts (but in return wants to be compensated for the time taken)

  • the seller is willing to sell for payment methods like Neteller, OKPay, PayPal where there is a high risk of the buyer cancelling the payment afterwards.

  • the seller is hoping to take advantage of confused buyers :)

  • the seller is willing to meet up for a cash transaction in a rare location

On the other hand, an advert to sell bitcoins might demand a low price because:

  • the seller wants to sell lots of bitcoins very fast

  • the seller has poor or no feedback

  • the seller set a specific price days ago (when bitcoins were half the price) and isn't actually available any more

  • the seller is dodgy :)

...and what's this business about location of sellers and selling face-to-face? How does that work?

The localbitcoins.com site is a bit schizophrenic - it can't seem to quite decide whether it's about online selling or face-to-face selling. I think it started off as the latter but now most people are doing the former.

Other than country, location is irrelevant for online sales - but some sellers put in a location (and a cash advert) anyway because the localbitcoins.com search seems to be designed more around face-to-face cash sales.

The localbitcoins escrow system makes cash sales fairly practical - how it works is:

  1. the seller puts his bitcoins in escrow with localbitcoins

  2. buyer and seller meet up

  3. once the seller has seen the buyer's cash, he sends a text to the localbitcoins.com number

  4. localbitcoins.com texts the buyer to let him know the bitcoins are now in the buyer's localbitcoins.com wallet

  5. they both leave the McDonalds / train station / pub / park bench without stabbing each other.

Definitely beats bringing a laptop somewhere and sitting around awkwardly making small talk with a stranger for 30 minutes while the bitcoin transaction confirms, which is how I originally imagined it working :)

There don't seem to be many cash sales going on though - I've got an advert on there to sell for cash but I've only had one sale.

I guess advantages of selling for cash are:

  • it's irreversible (well, unless you're mugged on the way out!) - I'm not sure just how irreversible bank transfers are (e.g. if the buyer has hijacked someones bank account - maybe the bank can cancel / claw-back payments?).

  • not going to set off any fraud/risk/money laundering alarms with your bank when they see loads of payments going in and out (might be a problem for guys making 100s of trades using their current accounts)

  • feels more underground and anarcho-capitalist :)

There aren't actually that many active UK traders on localbitcoins.com, which either suggests that bitcoins are going to fizzle out (because it's reached its maximum penetration), or go to the moon (because there's still a huge supply of "greater fools" to buy them), or that there's somewhere better to buy/sell bitcoins in the UK (I'd like to know if there is!) ...

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Thanks, shark99 - interesting post.

I didn't realise you could use escrow for OTC too. TBH, a bank transfer is easier, unless you want to work with cash though.

Now, if a few local shops/jewellers started doing OTC, that would start to get interesting... :)

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Now, if a few local shops/jewellers started doing OTC, that would start to get interesting... :)

Yes, that would be interesting.

I guess the problems for someone trying to do something like that as a serious business are:

  • you'll fall under the scope of some sort of money laundering / banking / money transfer legislation, which is probably an expensive hassle

  • the price is crazily volatile - the "float" bitcoins you hold could change in value by 25% in a single day (though perhaps it will steady down eventually)

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I'm not sure if I can post a link or not but I'm selling Bitcoins on BitBargain (PM me for a link).

They do have quite a mark-up from MtGox and mine aren't the very cheapest to avoid endless time wasters who cancel transactions etc. With the way things are going, if you don't have a big mark-up you're better off keeping the coins as within 48 hours the price can change so much.

BitBargain accept bank transfer and PingIt (which is instant, so much preferred but it takes 7 days to go through the sign up process so start NOW). I've bought and sold on them without a problem.

I'm signed with LocalBitcoins but haven't sold on-line on there yet.

Anywhere that requires SEPA, use TransferWise.

+1 to the ease of paying in Bitcoins internationally compared to fiat money. My god how archaic do foreign transfers feel now. And +1 to not touching PayPal with a bargepole. Never.

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When backing up, do you just backup the file wallet.dat?

Another question? I'm loading bitcoin-qt client on my machine. It's taking a long time. Is it downloading the Blockchain?

If the hard drive containing my wallet fails, can I reload bitcoin-qt client onto a new hard drive, and use my back-up to carry on as normal?

Another question. I'm running the wallet application and it's synchronising. It has been running now for 5 hours, and still has 20% remaining. It seems to hang for significant periods of time. Does this sound normal? Where is the file being stored and what is it called? Thanks.

Edited by LetsGetReadyToTumble
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When backing up, do you just backup the file wallet.dat?

Another question? I'm loading bitcoin-qt client on my machine. It's taking a long time. Is it downloading the Blockchain?

If the hard drive containing my wallet fails, can I reload bitcoin-qt client onto a new hard drive, and use my back-up to carry on as normal?

Another question. I'm running the wallet application and it's synchronising. It has been running now for 5 hours, and still has 20% remaining. It seems to hang for significant periods of time. Does this sound normal? Where is the file being stored and what is it called? Thanks.

lets hope it isnt loading a trojan.

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lets hope it isnt loading a trojan.

A trojan would be tiny, and trojan bandwidth usage is usually very small. Usually!

It'll be syncing the blockchain I expect - that can take a long time.

Edited by miggy
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When backing up, do you just backup the file wallet.dat?

Another question? I'm loading bitcoin-qt client on my machine. It's taking a long time. Is it downloading the Blockchain?

If the hard drive containing my wallet fails, can I reload bitcoin-qt client onto a new hard drive, and use my back-up to carry on as normal?

Another question. I'm running the wallet application and it's synchronising. It has been running now for 5 hours, and still has 20% remaining. It seems to hang for significant periods of time. Does this sound normal? Where is the file being stored and what is it called? Thanks.

The delay is in loading the Blockchain, it's about 7Gb now, and downloading slows towards the end of the blockchain, I'm afraid. It took me a couple of ddays to download it all.

It isn't one file, but lots of blocks. On my system, it is stored in C:\Documents and Settings\my name\Application Data\Bitcoin\

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The delay is in loading the Blockchain, it's about 7Gb now, and downloading slows towards the end of the blockchain, I'm afraid. It took me a couple of ddays to download it all.

It isn't one file, but lots of blocks. On my system, it is stored in C:\Documents and Settings\my name\Application Data\Bitcoin\

load it on your phone?

really, file sizes and bandwidth are going to kill this thing....

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load it on your phone?

really, file sizes and bandwidth are going to kill this thing....

I think their is a 'lite' version for android, but I intend to keep my bitcoins somewhere secure, not on a phone. I assume it works without downloading all, or part of the blockchain, but it is also supposedly 'less secure'.

Kill Bitcoin? I wonder. I suppose connection speeds and storage capacity are expected to grow too.

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  • 434 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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