Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Just listening to a Max Keiser ramp on bitcoins. Apparently all the bitcoins "in existence" have been created. Hmm...seen some threads on this thing...I was under the impression, you did some work and this created a bitcoin which you used to buy other goods. No, you have to obtain them initially...for cash. currently £32 in the Uk for your bitcoin. https://intersango.com/ Keiser claims he is a bitcoin multimillionaire...... Now, this thing is unbacked, it seems to be, in effect simply a digital paper ETF, backed by nothing, EXACTLY as much PM ETFs are backed on nothing at all...just a promise to deliver...no actual PM required. Cant find things to buy directly, but there are hundreds of sites trading them... scam, bubble or new wave of currency freedom? Edited March 12, 2013 by Bloo Loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1mini Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Just listening to a Max Keiser ramp on bitcoins. Apparently all the bitcoins "in existence" have been created. Hmm...seen some threads on this thing...I was under the impression, you did some work and this created a bitcoin which you used to buy other goods. No, you have to obtain them initially...for cash. currently £32 in the Uk for your bitcoin. https://intersango.com/ Keiser claims he is a bitcoin multimillionaire...... Now, this thing is unbacked, it seems to be, in effect simply a digital paper ETF, backed by nothing, EXACTLY| as much PM ETFs are backed on nothing at all...just a promise to deliver...no actual PM required. Cant find things to buy directly, but there are hundreds of sites trading them... scam, bubble or new wave of currency freedom? Bitcoins are pretty much there to service the dark net. If you want to buy your drugs or guns offgrid but online you can. Silkroad and up until recently The Armoury traded millions of BTC using an eBay / Amazon system. Up until very recently it has been really hard to buy cocaine in Australia, but now with The SilkRoad people can get it delivered without too much hassle and limited risk. Peer 2 peer 'offgrid' currency will always exist to trade things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeky Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Just listening to a Max Keiser ramp on bitcoins. Apparently all the bitcoins "in existence" have been created. Hmm...seen some threads on this thing...I was under the impression, you did some work and this created a bitcoin which you used to buy other goods. No, you have to obtain them initially...for cash. currently £32 in the Uk for your bitcoin. https://intersango.com/ Keiser claims he is a bitcoin multimillionaire...... Now, this thing is unbacked, it seems to be, in effect simply a digital paper ETF, backed by nothing, EXACTLY| as much PM ETFs are backed on nothing at all...just a promise to deliver...no actual PM required. Cant find things to buy directly, but there are hundreds of sites trading them... scam, bubble or new wave of currency freedom? It is probably getting cheaper to buy them than mine them these days. It all depends on the computing resources you have available and the cost of running it. Unless they've hit the 21 million hard limit mark already and I didn't notice. Edited March 12, 2013 by Squeeky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 It is probably getting cheaper to buy them than mine them these days. It all depends on the computing resources you have available and the cost of running it. Unless they've hit the 21 million hard limit mark already and I didn't notice. Thats what Keiser said..they've hit the limit..there wont be any more. but what use are they if you cant buy anything with them....not even tulips. I can see but one use..the early adopters ship on out and retire, leaving everyone else to cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1mini Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Thats what Keiser said..they've hit the limit..there wont be any more. but what use are they if you cant buy anything with them....not even tulips. I can see but one use..the early adopters ship on out and retire, leaving everyone else to cry. Seriously? Next you will be telling me there is no money in guns or drugs?!??!?! BTC and SilkRoad go hand in hand. Until people give up using drugs or prohibition is lifted people will look to buy them. If all you have to do is click a few clicks and get your parcel of cannabis delivered, why would you want to go down to some shady dealers house to buy them? BTC will track the growth of the SilkRoad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzib Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Total count is 10.8 million Looks like a bubble to me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Seriously? Next you will be telling me there is no money in guns or drugs?!??!?! BTC and SilkRoad go hand in hand. Until people give up using drugs or prohibition is lifted people will look to buy them. If all you have to do is click a few clicks and get your parcel of cannabis delivered, why would you want to go down to some shady dealers house to buy them? BTC will track the growth of the SilkRoad If that is all it buys, its hardly money in the sense of the word....ie..popularly in demand and widely available for exchange. Next you'll be suggesting ciggies are a universal form of currency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Just listening to a Max Keiser ramp on bitcoins. Apparently all the bitcoins "in existence" have been created. Hmm...seen some threads on this thing...I was under the impression, you did some work and this created a bitcoin which you used to buy other goods. No, you have to obtain them initially...for cash. currently £32 in the Uk for your bitcoin. https://intersango.com/ Keiser claims he is a bitcoin multimillionaire...... Now, this thing is unbacked, it seems to be, in effect simply a digital paper ETF, backed by nothing, EXACTLY as much PM ETFs are backed on nothing at all...just a promise to deliver...no actual PM required. Cant find things to buy directly, but there are hundreds of sites trading them... scam, bubble or new wave of currency freedom? You can still mine new Bitcoins. About half have already been mined and gone are the days that you could effectively mine with a laptop (like I did back in 2011 - 100 bitcoins after a week or so). Big mining rigs now often use custom hardware to maximise processing and the entire Bitcoin network is the biggest distributed processing project in the world now. Ofc, you can buy them as you can buy anything else too. This is the same for any other currency or gold/silver etc. You need to trade something, whether it is labour or other stuff. As for backing, what backs gold or silver? What gives PMs value? As a clue, nothing has intrinsic value and everything is subjective. Whether you aspire to own lumps of yellow metal or a key to an online block chain, is in the eye of the beholder. In short, Bitcoin doesn't need 'backing'. It is valued for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Thats what Keiser said..they've hit the limit..there wont be any more. but what use are they if you cant buy anything with them....not even tulips. I can see but one use..the early adopters ship on out and retire, leaving everyone else to cry. Nah, about 10m of 21m have been mined. http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ You can buy loads of stuff with them. Here are some sites which sell stuff for them: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade Re early adopters, it's the same for anything. Some people buy stuff before others, whether it is gold, silver, Bitcoins or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Seriously? Next you will be telling me there is no money in guns or drugs?!??!?! BTC and SilkRoad go hand in hand. Until people give up using drugs or prohibition is lifted people will look to buy them. If all you have to do is click a few clicks and get your parcel of cannabis delivered, why would you want to go down to some shady dealers house to buy them? BTC will track the growth of the SilkRoad Same for gambling in the US and other countries where it is illegal. Prohibition breeds demand for Bitcoins, currently. That's not to say it is their only use - far from it - but you can see why there is a business case for them there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Total count is 10.8 million Looks like a bubble to me ! I agree that there is a big correction due, but in the long term, I suspect they will continue to rise in price. I'm holding off buying them again until after the current spike has been sawn off. FWIW, I only own 3 BC* atm (!!), but I did mine some, buy some, then sell at a good profit for a house deposit last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 You can still mine new Bitcoins. About half have already been mined and gone are the days that you could effectively mine with a laptop (like I did back in 2011 - 100 bitcoins after a week or so). Big mining rigs now often use custom hardware to maximise processing and the entire Bitcoin network is the biggest distributed processing project in the world now. Ofc, you can buy them as you can buy anything else too. This is the same for any other currency or gold/silver etc. You need to trade something, whether it is labour or other stuff. As for backing, what backs gold or silver? What gives PMs value? As a clue, nothing has intrinsic value and everything is subjective. Whether you aspire to own lumps of yellow metal or a key to an online block chain, is in the eye of the beholder. In short, Bitcoin doesn't need 'backing'. It is valued for what it is. lots of hotels: Hotels Villa SART - guest house in Gdansk, Poland, family atmosphere, located in the centre of Gdansk-Sopot-Gdynia area. Global Travel Club, an MLM 'cycler' based on hotel search. Urban Living Suites, Home-style short-term rentals located in Downtown Toronto, Canada. 20mission, Entrepreneur co-housing in the Mission District of San Francisco. well. buying a place on an MLM search engine hardly qualifies indeed. Bitcoin smacks of the MLM scam..... Unless the MaxKeiser argument is rebuffed, then I see a specualtion market, now slowing and therefore the founders are pushing it everywhere they can...Keiser wanted everyone to buy silver at the beginning of last year...this year its bitcoins..lets remember is IS a City banker through and through once you peel off the libertarian front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eight Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 What's to stop national governments buying them all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 As for backing of PMs....well, in the real world, we have whats called a thing..something you can touch, taste, smell and see...It has weight and size....it is real. The day they turn off the interweb...your bitcoin is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Bitcoin = Danger, Will Robinson! As with anything market traded, you can lose your shirt. It's a fad, like space hoppers, hula hoops, tulip bulbs... link A technical glitch in the core Bitcoin software forced developers to call for a temporary halt to Bitcoin transactions, sparking a sharp sell-off. The currency's value briefly fell 23 percent to $37 before regaining much of its value later in the evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsm Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) What makes for sound money, a universally accepted token of exchange and store of value ? It should be : divisible, fungible, portable, non-counterfeitable, not consumed by industry, durable, desirable. Bitcoins fits the bill in every way, in fact it surpasses gold in portability. As of yet there have been no fatal flaws discovered, and that in about 5 years in the internet age is not to be lightly dismissed. Any competing crypo-currency is now effectively 5 years behind the curve in terms of acceptance durability and tests of robustness. Getting your wallet stolen is not a flaw of bitcoins, it is a flaw on yourself. To gain control of bitcoins and destroy them you would have to gain control of at least 51% of all of the internet. An enormous and perhaps impossible task. Good luck with that. You can already probably buy any category of goods and services you desire with BTC, it just has not yet become ubiquitous. It may yet become so. It is the fiat system's worst nightmare. 21 million are to be mined, and that will only happen in another few decades. They may have already bumped into a practical limit due to the enormous, and growing, computing power required to mine them. Does not matter as each coin can be divided down into 10^8 sub-coins, so practically there will always be enough coins. Expect them to be banned, and then they will really take-off. Edited March 12, 2013 by evetsm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 What makes for sound money, a universally accepted token of exchange and store of value ? It should be : divisible, fungible, portable, non-counterfeitable, not consumed by industry, durable, desirable. Bitcoins fits the bill in every way, in fact it surpasses gold in portability. As of yet there have been no fatal flaws discovered, and that in about 5 years in the internet age is not to be lightly dismissed. Any competing crypo-currency is now effectively 5 years behind the curve in terms of acceptance durability and tests of robustness. Getting your wallet stolen is not a flaw of bitcoins, it is a flaw on yourself. To gain control of bitcoins and destroy them you would have to gain control of at least 51% of all of the internet. An enormous and perhaps impossible task. Good luck with that. You can already probably buy any category of goods and services you desire with BTC, it just has not yet become ubiquitous. It may yet become so. It is the fiat system's worst nightmare. 21 million are to be mined, and that will only happen in another few decades. They may have already bumped into a practical limit due to the enormous, and growing, computing power required to mine them. Does not matter as each coin can be divided down into 10^8 sub-coins, so practically there will always be enough coins. Expect them to be banned, and then they will really take-off. like other forms of credit though, YOU cant spend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsm Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 What's to stop national governments buying them all? Bitcoins transactions are visible to everyone in journals(blockchains) kept in the open, what is not visible is which individuals did the transactions. How would the govt even know which individuals have them in order to go to to buy them all ? They cannot know. The guy/s that invented bitcoins is a genius. He is an expert in mathematics, cryptography, peer-to-peer networks, Austrian style economics and the history and nature of money. At least , and probably much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Bitcoin = Danger, Will Robinson! As with anything market traded, you can lose your shirt. It's a fad, like space hoppers, hula hoops, tulip bulbs... link Talking rubbish My link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Bitcoins transactions are visible to everyone in journals(blockchains) kept in the open, what is not visible is which individuals did the transactions. How would the govt even know which individuals have them in order to go to to buy them all ? They cannot know. The guy/s that invented bitcoins is a genius. He is an expert in mathematics, cryptography, peer-to-peer networks, Austrian style economics and the history and nature of money. At least , and probably much more. they can buy the rest.... beware geniuseses offering credit...they normally work in the City and say white is black and they can prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsm Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 like other forms of credit though, YOU cant spend it. You just haven't looked for places to spend it. You can, there are dozens of websites similar to ebay where you can buy all nature of things with bitcoins. It is early days yet . A bitcoin is NOT credit in itself. Unlike fiat, it is not created as a debt in itself to anyone. It is a pure token of exchange and store of value ie money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) You just haven't looked for places to spend it. You can, there are dozens of websites similar to ebay where you can buy all nature of things with bitcoins. It is early days yet . A bitcoin is NOT credit in itself. Unlike fiat, it is not created as a debt in itself to anyone. It is a pure token of exchange and store of value ie money. so how do they "make" the last few million? And how can I buy a loaf with it. Until I can, its not money I googled "where can I spend my bitcoins", and there were page after page of dealers come up....hence my post.. Edited March 12, 2013 by Bloo Loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 You just haven't looked for places to spend it. You can, there are dozens of websites similar to ebay where you can buy all nature of things with bitcoins. It is early days yet . A bitcoin is NOT credit in itself. Unlike fiat, it is not created as a debt in itself to anyone. It is a pure token of exchange and store of value ie money. and actually what I meant by "YOU cant spend it"...is that YOU cant transact it without a third party...currently those third parties are paid by bitcoin to do the trading....one day, leccy will cost more than they cost to run AND once the limit is met, they will simply be skimming....just like another type of organisation I can think of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pindar Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot virtual bargepole. It's another ponzi scheme. The only people who'll make any real money are the ones who "made" the bitcoins and who have access to specialised skills and hardware suitable for "making" them. Since they're all made, there is not money to be made in mining them so the only logical next step is counterfeiting them or watching as the giant scam crashes and burns. It was a nice experiment in virtual money but I think most people have moved on and seen the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsm Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 and actually what I meant by "YOU cant spend it"...is that YOU cant transact it without a third party...currently those third parties are paid by bitcoin to do the trading....one day, leccy will cost more than they cost to run AND once the limit is met, they will simply be skimming....just like another type of organisation I can think of... Rubbish. I can go to a guy who is selling his house for bitcoins, take my mobile phone and transfer the BTC payment to his mobile phone. This is already happening. By the time you wake up and you can buy a loaf of bread in BTC, one bitcoin will cost you £1000. This is an emerging currency, you have to be able to anticipate its virtues to be ahead of the curve. If it is robust enough that day will come when you can buy bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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