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A vendor is free to lower and increase the price. We all agree on that. This service (PP & PN) is paid for by the vendor. The service is there to aid the sale of the house.

I am not a fan of pricing in £x to knock off. We price our houses at what we believe they will sell at and generally acheive that. In my experience there will not be a pricing history to current new build properties. If a particular type is slow future releases will be less or phased out.

I dont think seeing that a house has dropped in price by 15% would attract me to it. in fact it may have the opposite effect. As a vender I would be casuous of lowering prices if purchasers were going to see it. Therefore it could actually prevent me doing it. Having to lower prices on a site shows me that that development is having problems.

I dont agree with PP showing the price history and I believe it actually works against both parties and particularly the vendor (who pays for the service).

If they were to do this on new build I would probably stop using them. This is not because I want to fool anyone. It is simply I want to be able to react to and ammend and pricing mistakes we may make. If we open a site and somehow get the pricing wrong (which thankfully hasnt happened)I want to be able to adjust that without everyone knowing that we had to lower prices.

Equally, if the site was selling well I would (some day) want to increase the prices if I believed the market could take it. particularly if we were selling at a loss or break even. I would not do that on releaced stock but on the next release. Again, perhaps surprisingly this may not be something I want to advertise.

Ho ho! VI is showing his true colours on this one. Of course he wants to treat buyers like mushrooms, just like in the old days. The increased availability of information makes any market more efficient, and allows prices to adjust to equilibrium quicker. That is particularly useful in a property market, where prices are particularly sticky and illiquid. Like all professionals, his instinct is to resist his 'mistakes' and methodologies being exposed.

He is wrong that it doesn't benefit anyone though. Even the vendor gets a long term benefit from having to think carefully before acting, and by being forced to give buyers the respect they deserve by not trying to pull any wool over their eyes. Trust (in agents and developers) by buyers is not exactly overflowing, and VI's should really be welcoming innovations which allow them to put all their cards on the table and compete openly, honestly and transparently.

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A vendor is free to lower and increase the price. We all agree on that. This service (PP & PN) is paid for by the vendor. The service is there to aid the sale of the house.

I am not a fan of pricing in £x to knock off. We price our houses at what we believe they will sell at and generally acheive that. In my experience there will not be a pricing history to current new build properties. If a particular type is slow future releases will be less or phased out.

I dont think seeing that a house has dropped in price by 15% would attract me to it. in fact it may have the opposite effect. As a vender I would be casuous of lowering prices if purchasers were going to see it. Therefore it could actually prevent me doing it. Having to lower prices on a site shows me that that development is having problems.

I dont agree with PP showing the price history and I believe it actually works against both parties and particularly the vendor (who pays for the service).

If they were to do this on new build I would probably stop using them. This is not because I want to fool anyone. It is simply I want to be able to react to and ammend and pricing mistakes we may make. If we open a site and somehow get the pricing wrong (which thankfully hasnt happened)I want to be able to adjust that without everyone knowing that we had to lower prices.

Equally, if the site was selling well I would (some day) want to increase the prices if I believed the market could take it. particularly if we were selling at a loss or break even. I would not do that on releaced stock but on the next release. Again, perhaps surprisingly this may not be something I want to advertise.

It seems to me VI that - to coin a phrase - you want to have your cake and eat it on the pricing history issue. Which, I suppose, coming from your perspective is only to be expected and I certainly don't hold it against you at all - although I don't buy any of your arguments in this case.

You claim in the majority of cases, your (or your company's) developments have been priced correctly and have sold well. This of course is fine and you are to be congratulated on doing a good job on the pricing of your properties in this market. However the point has to be made that in the original example raised there is a £15k increase designed to cash in over the spring silly season - not all developers will have the same set of standards. This clearly should be exposed and as 2buy points out - it benefits society as a whole for this to be evident.

You point out there is a possibility your company may make pricing mistakes in the future and you would like to have the opportunity to correct these secretively (which for the sake of argument I'm going to assume means reduce in this case given the market.) The question I have is, if in the case you have clearly identified the problem is pricing, how does it actually work against both parties for it to become public knowledge that you have reduced the price to bring it more in line with current prices?

Clearly, a purchaser would most likely view the development as more accurately priced and be more inclined to view/purchase. Also, as purchaser I immediately take the view the vendor is more realistic with his/her demands - they may actually be worth doing business with. The vendor benefits from this as ultimately sales are then achieved - whereas without the price drop you are just watching the grass grow...

The only negative I can think of from a new dev point of view is damage to reputation if it is obvious pricing is high across multiple sites. However, I do think many purchasers would now be of a view that given the market has been declining by 10% per annum - seeing public house drops advertised on new builds would be expected rather than damaging behaviour.

I really don't see any argument that stands up to scruitny as to how advertising a price drop doesn't benefit a purchaser. And clearly as not all developers have the same set of standards that you claim your company has (and I've no reason to doubt you) again re-inforces the usefulness of this tool. If your company is experiencing very little issues in this regard then I don't see why you should be so vehemently set against it - when clearly it is benefical to most punters in the market.

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I can completely get where you are coming from VI and understand your aversion to price discovery. I imagine that insurance companies felt the same when comparison sites were first launched, still it’s hard to argue that society in general doesn’t benefit from this type of price discovery.

Transactions are obviously two way streets and PN and PP just facilitate the sale. Yes the vendor pays for the service but ultimately there would been no vendor without a customer.

We are the only region not to offer LR prices on an individual basis. This is really unacceptable. I understand there are still ways to work the system, particularly from a new build perspective where builders in England and Wales submit inaccurate readings (fictitious incentives anyone) to try and present a new development in a certain light. It wouldn’t be like builders and EAs here to obfuscate… but we whether you like it or not we live in a society that values consumer rights over that of the vendor – the vast majority of legislation being consumer centric. Price discovery helps most involved in the transaction with the vendor and EA being the only losers.

I think PP should offer price correction history on new builds. Property Bee already allows this. The vendor pays for the service but at the end of the day it all comes down to which site had the features the customer want, if PN or PP don’t provide the features I want then I will use someone else. I personally think NI will, eventually, get access to LR figures. Do you think you think you’ll throw your toys out of the pram when they do or wll you accept that N.I. had to move with the times and offer a little bit of parity with our neighbours?

Purchasers are free to, and I am sure always do, compare the price data available from house to house and development to development. Having this information available over the internet either from the estate agents website or the likes of PN & PP is of great benefit to purchasers. It allows them to compare prices and seek out the best value.

Land Registry information is a separate issue to the discussion. Like you I don't see why NI is any different to the other regions of the UK and fail to understand why we cant have it and have no real issue with it.

You are correct in mentioning the activities of the larger builders that were, during the boom listing prices at, say £200k as a 'headline price' but giving large incentives or discounts to allow the purchaser to buy at say £180k. They were doing this on all the houses in the scheme to keep the recorded sales, which were then available in LR at the £200k level to allow for high valuations and ease of borrowing.

This activity was not employed in NI and the concept of 'headline figure' (not to be confused with asking price) is alien to us here.

The CML has brought in a delectation of incentives form, from around 2007 which prevents developers doing anything without taking it off the list price. For example if I was selling a house at £150k and the purchaser would only complete if we paved the driveway (Extra £1k) we now have to mark the house price at £149k. Its the exact same thing to us and just means the client cant borrow for, what was a free extra.

The majority of house sales in NI are from orderly people not developers. I don't believe a purchasers rights are in any way infringed upon by the vendor not disclosing that two months ago they lowered the house price by £10,000.

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Ho ho! VI is showing his true colours on this one. Of course he wants to treat buyers like mushrooms, just like in the old days. The increased availability of information makes any market more efficient, and allows prices to adjust to equilibrium quicker. That is particularly useful in a property market, where prices are particularly sticky and illiquid. Like all professionals, his instinct is to resist his 'mistakes' and methodologies being exposed.

He is wrong that it doesn't benefit anyone though. Even the vendor gets a long term benefit from having to think carefully before acting, and by being forced to give buyers the respect they deserve by not trying to pull any wool over their eyes. Trust (in agents and developers) by buyers is not exactly overflowing, and VI's should really be welcoming innovations which allow them to put all their cards on the table and compete openly, honestly and transparently.

I think you are all too quick to jump to the wrong conclusion here.

I am always willing to show my true colours here and did so with my choice of name as I felt it was important people know where I came from.

I pointed out in my post that having a tracked history of price movement would prevent, or deter me from lowering my prices.

Whilst I wouldn't particularly wish people to see any increases it wouldn't deter me from increasing as rising markets attract sales.

Whilst we always try, and normally do price the houses right in the first place. However, is sales were slow, or sales on a house type were slow I would like to be able to adjust without this being flagged as a site in trouble. Therefore tracked changes would act, to me anyway, as a barrier to lowering prices, which I am sure is something none of us want.

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It seems to me VI that - to coin a phrase - you want to have your cake and eat it on the pricing history issue. Which, I suppose, coming from your perspective is only to be expected and I certainly don't hold it against you at all - although I don't buy any of your arguments in this case.

You claim in the majority of cases, your (or your company's) developments have been priced correctly and have sold well. This of course is fine and you are to be congratulated on doing a good job on the pricing of your properties in this market. However the point has to be made that in the original example raised there is a £15k increase designed to cash in over the spring silly season - not all developers will have the same set of standards. This clearly should be exposed and as 2buy points out - it benefits society as a whole for this to be evident.

You point out there is a possibility your company may make pricing mistakes in the future and you would like to have the opportunity to correct these secretively (which for the sake of argument I'm going to assume means reduce in this case given the market.) The question I have is, if in the case you have clearly identified the problem is pricing, how does it actually work against both parties for it to become public knowledge that you have reduced the price to bring it more in line with current prices?

Clearly, a purchaser would most likely view the development as more accurately priced and be more inclined to view/purchase. Also, as purchaser I immediately take the view the vendor is more realistic with his/her demands - they may actually be worth doing business with. The vendor benefits from this as ultimately sales are then achieved - whereas without the price drop you are just watching the grass grow...

The only negative I can think of from a new dev point of view is damage to reputation if it is obvious pricing is high across multiple sites. However, I do think many purchasers would now be of a view that given the market has been declining by 10% per annum - seeing public house drops advertised on new builds would be expected rather than damaging behaviour.

I really don't see any argument that stands up to scruitny as to how advertising a price drop doesn't benefit a purchaser. And clearly as not all developers have the same set of standards that you claim your company has (and I've no reason to doubt you) again re-inforces the usefulness of this tool. If your company is experiencing very little issues in this regard then I don't see why you should be so vehemently set against it - when clearly it is benefical to most punters in the market.

Thanks for taking the time to put up the arguments.

First of all I dont see any silly spring selling season which allows £15k extra on the value of properties.

In the new build sector (on the sites that are selling) there is no point in pricing in a amount for discount or the likes. As you state yourself people will not even enquire if they think the houses are over priced. Therefore the houses have to be priced at the price they will sell at or they will stick. As regards standards If I thought I could sell our houses at the same rate at £5k or £10k more I wouldn't hesitate increasing the price. I think few vendors would differ.

You stated you didn't see any argument that stands up to scrutiny as to how advertising a price drop doesn't benefit a purchaser. The argument I was trying to put forward was in regards to sales. I didn't believe it helped to achieve a sale. A purchaser may be happy with a house at a certain price and may want to buy. However on seeing that this house has recently been dropped may, in my view be off putting.

If it would put me, as a large vender, off downward adjustment then I believe it is ultimately bad for the purchaser and the vendor. The vendor will have slower turnover and the purchaser pays more.

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Thanks for taking the time to put up the arguments.

First of all I dont see any silly spring selling season which allows £15k extra on the value of properties.

In the new build sector (on the sites that are selling) there is no point in pricing in a amount for discount or the likes. As you state yourself people will not even enquire if they think the houses are over priced. Therefore the houses have to be priced at the price they will sell at or they will stick. As regards standards If I thought I could sell our houses at the same rate at £5k or £10k more I wouldn't hesitate increasing the price. I think few vendors would differ.

You stated you didn't see any argument that stands up to scrutiny as to how advertising a price drop doesn't benefit a purchaser. The argument I was trying to put forward was in regards to sales. I didn't believe it helped to achieve a sale. A purchaser may be happy with a house at a certain price and may want to buy. However on seeing that this house has recently been dropped may, in my view be off putting.

If it would put me, as a large vender, off downward adjustment then I believe it is ultimately bad for the purchaser and the vendor. The vendor will have slower turnover and the purchaser pays more.

OK, I can see your points about pointing out particular cases where a vendor may feel negative about the idea of reducing a price because it becomes public knowledge. But equally you could come up with scenarios where if lots of competitor properties in the area reduce their prices, it would look odd NOT to have reduced prices, and so the encouragement is there to do it, and it wouldn't look unusual at all. In any case although I accept there will always be different situations that throw up odd behaviour, I'll continue to believe that openness is beneficial in the macro.

The case above that you describe as bad for the purchaser and the vendor is a case where a vendor acts irrationally against his own interest and ends up with a slow turnover. Don't worry, though, capitalism has a proven way of handling irrational players in efficient markets. They go bust and get replaced by others. The fact that you are still trading after so many of your contemporaries have gone out of business suggests that you are not as irrational as you make out :-)

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Thanks for taking the time to put up the arguments.

First of all I dont see any silly spring selling season which allows £15k extra on the value of properties.

In the new build sector (on the sites that are selling) there is no point in pricing in a amount for discount or the likes. As you state yourself people will not even enquire if they think the houses are over priced. Therefore the houses have to be priced at the price they will sell at or they will stick. As regards standards If I thought I could sell our houses at the same rate at £5k or £10k more I wouldn't hesitate increasing the price. I think few vendors would differ.

You stated you didn't see any argument that stands up to scrutiny as to how advertising a price drop doesn't benefit a purchaser. The argument I was trying to put forward was in regards to sales. I didn't believe it helped to achieve a sale. A purchaser may be happy with a house at a certain price and may want to buy. However on seeing that this house has recently been dropped may, in my view be off putting.

If it would put me, as a large vender, off downward adjustment then I believe it is ultimately bad for the purchaser and the vendor. The vendor will have slower turnover and the purchaser pays more.

Ok, I see your point clearly now, thanks for explaining.

However, most of the points I already made in support of the tool still stand. I don't think it would be correct of Property Pal or Property Bee to remove the facility just to fit this particular circumstance - your reluctance to be seen to be reducing prices.

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OK, I can see your points about pointing out particular cases where a vendor may feel negative about the idea of reducing a price because it becomes public knowledge. But equally you could come up with scenarios where if lots of competitor properties in the area reduce their prices, it would look odd NOT to have reduced prices, and so the encouragement is there to do it, and it wouldn't look unusual at all. In any case although I accept there will always be different situations that throw up odd behaviour, I'll continue to believe that openness is beneficial in the macro.

The case above that you describe as bad for the purchaser and the vendor is a case where a vendor acts irrationally against his own interest and ends up with a slow turnover. Don't worry, though, capitalism has a proven way of handling irrational players in efficient markets. They go bust and get replaced by others. The fact that you are still trading after so many of your contemporaries have gone out of business suggests that you are not as irrational as you make out :-)

You are missing my point. If I need to lower a price I am free to do it without damaging the site (in my view) as track changes are not available on new build). If that was in place I would hesitate. I would balance the effect of slower turnover against damaging the site. This is only my view and perhaps I am wrong but I prefer the free ability to do that if I needed to.

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Ok, I see your point clearly now, thanks for explaining.

However, most of the points I already made in support of the tool still stand. I don't think it would be correct of Property Pal or Property Bee to remove the facility just to fit this particular circumstance - your reluctance to be seen to be reducing prices.

It is not in place in developments so I dont have the problem, nor do I want it.

Thanks for taking the time to understand my sometimes complicated reasioning.

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I'll come out and say it - I'm not overly fussed on the appearance of the new propertypal website. The homepage is far too spread out and you have to scroll down for ages to see all of it. I like to click on the tabs on the bottom and go to homes for sale, then click on my area but this takes a while when you have to scroll down each time you go to the homepage. I also think the site has far too many banner adverts on it especially on the property results page as they are at the top, side and bottom of the page. I know they are a source of income but I feel they cheapen the site and distract the viewer from the important stuff like property info and photos.

I also miss seeing estate agent logos beside the property in the search results page as this instantly told you how your rivals were doing as far as listing new properties. It was also a way of estate agents being seen by the public but now it's gone in this part of the website. Now we simply have the company name in plain text under the property address, very boring.

I think I also preferred the old picture viewer as it was clear and simply. Now the property address appears across the first photo on the list which is annoying. There are many good additions to the site but it's by no means an attractive looking site now, sorry.

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I'll come out and say it - I'm not overly fussed on the appearance of the new propertypal website. The homepage is far too spread out and you have to scroll down for ages to see all of it.

I like to click on the tabs on the bottom and go to homes for sale, then click on my area but this takes a while when you have to scroll down each time you go to the homepage. I also think the site has far too many banner adverts on it especially on the property results page as they are at the top, side and bottom of the page. I know they are a source of income but I feel they cheapen the site and distract the viewer from the important stuff like property info and photos.

I also miss seeing estate agent logos beside the property in the search results page as this instantly told you how your rivals were doing as far as listing new properties. It was also a way of estate agents being seen by the public but now it's gone in this part of the website. Now we simply have the company name in plain text under the property address, very boring.

I think I also preferred the old picture viewer as it was clear and simply. Now the property address appears across the first photo on the list which is annoying. There are many good additions to the site but it's by no means an attractive looking site now, sorry.

I'll address the critique as best I can, obviously we respect your opinion, and indeed welcome it. Either publicly or privately.

The homepage is obviously our shop front, we've upped the size of the photos in the listings, and these are again being used on the home page. We believe the trade off in clarity in contrast to asking the user to scroll is worth it, and with amble white space, gives a calmer feel. Users, ultimately are there for a visual experience, and we are still trying to hammer it home to the agents that bigger photos equates to happier users, and more enquiries. You can see the impact for yourself between these two example listings:

http://www.propertypal.com/tara-hill-cottage-2-ballyquintin-road-portaferry/220966#photo-4

http://www.propertypal.com/3b-kilnadore-road-cushendall-ballymena/231019

We've provided the tools , and it is the agents responsibility to use them to their full advantage.

We also knew that we were going to receive critique over the Estate Agent logos no longer appearing in the listings as a "logo image", however we wanted, again to not distract from the listing, and let the user get on with viewing the property in question. What may appear boring to you, is clean to us, and whilst the information is in a different format, its Again, let the user see the photos of the property, and make their decision on whether to click through or not. This levels the playing field somewhat as well, with even the bigger agents now being forced to provide quality imagery to compete for eyeballs and attention. Particularly when a home is being marketed by joint agents.

Quality photos = happy users = more traffic and leads to the agents.

Granted, this may make it more difficult to see how your rivals are performing, however our saved search alerts is a much better way of keeping track of the properties listed by your rival agents, and you'll just get a daily update without having to revisit the site.

The picture viewer, we've received a number of complaints over the position of the property address, and have a plan in place which will be rolled out of the next few weeks. We've experimented with some bold design decisions, and this is one which we are pulling back on.

Lastly, the advertising as I'm sure you understand is unfortunately a necessary evil, however there are actually less ad slots on PropertyPal v6 compared to the last incarnation of the site.

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Any chance of increasing the number of just added properties on the front slider?

One of the main reasons I use PP is because the older version showed more just added properties than you competitor.

Possibly. There are speed considerations here particularly for the homepage, that have to be considered for mobile connections as well. If its a list of recently added can you not just perform an open search and use the sort by recently added feature?

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One thing I think would be a nice addition would be the ability to create multiple shortlists. The reason for it is that I notice that quite often people hunt out properties for friends, family and work colleagues. It would be nice if I could create a specific shortlist to share with another person whilst keeping my own personal shortlist separate so as to not confuse matters.

Edited by squire
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  • 2 years later...

I don't believe there is any pressure from sellers to remove price history, particularly in a rising market.

I didn't like it at the start, but quite frankly had forgotten about it. If anything price history would be of benefit to me now (in a selfish way) as it would tract, and therefore highlight the albeit small increases on our developments. Although this is usually seen in phased releases as we rarely change the price of a house on release.

Therefore I don't agree they have 'sold out' to developers as I doubt any developers are looking the feature to be removed.

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I don't believe there is any pressure from sellers to remove price history, particularly in a rising market.

I didn't like it at the start, but quite frankly had forgotten about it. If anything price history would be of benefit to me now (in a selfish way) as it would tract, and therefore highlight the albeit small increases on our developments. Although this is usually seen in phased releases as we rarely change the price of a house on release.

Therefore I don't agree they have 'sold out' to developers as I doubt any developers are looking the feature to be removed.

Have you seen a single example (apart from New builds) where an asking price has actually increased?

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Have you seen a single example (apart from New builds) where an asking price has actually increased?

I've seen two, one of which i had viewed before the rise. I chuckled loudly at the audacity. It was well overpriced in the first place.

Both houses remain unsold.

Edited by Bergy100
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Therefore I don't agree they have 'sold out' to developers as I doubt any developers are looking the feature to be removed.

Having emailed PP about this and the removal of the RV figure, the polite way of answering is vendors and estate agents were less than enamored with it.

I wonder why.

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To be fair, my response was a lot more reasoned than the above paraphrasing.

W/o getting into quoting private correspondence you did make a clear statement in regard to the attitudes of certain vendors and certain estate agents (of course not named) towards the price history feature. I am not sure why you logged on to only find that comment disagreeable.

I was a lot more measured than opining you had "sold out" so I'm surprised you've picked up on my comment to be honest.

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W/o getting into quoting private correspondence you did make a clear statement in regard to the attitudes of certain vendors and certain estate agents (of course not named) towards the price history feature. I am not sure why you logged on to only find that comment disagreeable.

I was a lot more measured than opining you had "sold out" so I'm surprised you've picked up on my comment to be honest.

We'll respect your wishes to not quote private correspondence, but its frustrating to see us being baited into a response for the purpose of public consumption on this thread.

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We'll respect your wishes to not quote private correspondence, but its frustrating to see us being baited into a response for the purpose of public consumption on this thread.

With respect PPP you did use the site to publicize enhancements and upgrades to your site. Do you not think it is then fair that the same thread can be used to discuss if people are disappointed with the removal of a useful feature at a later date? Which as far as I'm aware was unannounced.

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  • 439 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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