OnlyMe Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Just how many NHS trusts are in hock to the tune of millions and how many are closing wards at the moment? Increasingly looking lilke a jobs shortage, not a skills shortage. Another segment of the university output going to the burger flipper economy, maybe we need some more mortgage advisors and EA's too. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...56A00?source=PA New nurses struggle to get NHS jobs 9 November 2005 The Nursing Standard magazine said that across Britain fresh graduates who had spent three years studying to become nurses were taking any job they could find - including in supermarkets and pubs. .... The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) has found hot spots across England where new nurses are having trouble getting a job in the NHS. They include Birmingham, Coventry, Sheffield, Surrey and Durham, as well as Scotland and Wales. ..... The Nursing Standard said that one university in Hampshire had already told nursing students not to expect any jobs in the NHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCS15 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Yet NHS are recruiting from OS :angry: Helps drive wages down Also I have been saying this for the last two years. There is no nurse shortage, it is a con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wudking Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Completely agree. There are plenty of nurses. It's the number and demands of patients that's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 How does a hospital axe 500 staff and still deliver anything lke the same service - I suppose it depends on what some of those staff were doing inthe first place. Newsnow is riddled with ward closures across the country but this item seems unbelieveable. What does the Unison secretary think he's doing bey suggesting such a damning thing? 500 JOBS GET THE AXE AT DEBT-RIDDEN HOSPITAL Next Story | Previous Story | Back to list DAVE BLACKHURST 12:00 - 09 November 2005 Around 500 jobs are to be axed at the University Hospital of North Staffordshire to help save £16 million by April. ..... Pat Powell, hospital Unison secretary, added: " The NHS is bankrupt and I am horrified that it is the politicians from the Labour Party I have worked for all my working life who have put it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 How does a hospital axe 500 staff and still deliver anything lke the same service - I suppose it depends on what some of those staff were doing inthe first place. By employing more managers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have got no sympathy with the doctors or nurses. Why do they think that they, and they alone, should be guarenteed a job, in a specified sector when they finish training? What other occupations does this? The constant demands from the doctors and nurses for more and more pay for less and less work has bankrupt this health service. They seem to think there is a bottomless pit of money that should be used to pay them more, give them generous pensions and even provide subsidised housing etc. All you ever hear from this profession is 'me,me,me' - more pay, more power, more privileges. They have priced themselves out of the market and dragged the NHS down with them. They only have themselves to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone west Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have got no sympathy with the doctors or nurses. Why do they think that they, and they alone, should be guarenteed a job, in a specified sector when they finish training? What other occupations does this? The constant demands from the doctors and nurses for more and more pay for less and less work has bankrupt this health service. They seem to think there is a bottomless pit of money that should be used to pay them more, give them generous pensions and even provide subsidised housing etc. All you ever hear from this profession is 'me,me,me' - more pay, more power, more privileges. They have priced themselves out of the market and dragged the NHS down with them. They only have themselves to blame. Completely agree. Free market. Come over to Canada, get paid more, live in a bigger house for less money and be treated like a human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29929BlackTuesday Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 When are the people of this country going to wake up that the 'government' are actually purposefully running UKPLC into the ground on purpose? Either that or they are SO incompetent that they give the impression they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smell the Fear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have got no sympathy with the doctors or nurses. Why do they think that they, and they alone, should be guarenteed a job, in a specified sector when they finish training? What other occupations does this? The constant demands from the doctors and nurses for more and more pay for less and less work has bankrupt this health service. They seem to think there is a bottomless pit of money that should be used to pay them more, give them generous pensions and even provide subsidised housing etc. All you ever hear from this profession is 'me,me,me' - more pay, more power, more privileges. They have priced themselves out of the market and dragged the NHS down with them. They only have themselves to blame. A free market in healthcare, like the US? The doctors and nurses would love it, as the free market pays for their expertise - they earn about twice as much in the US. You are currently getting their services at a knockdown price. You, the patient, may not be so keen. You would end up paying the highest healthcare costs in the world, albeit via an insurance premium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedupTeddiBear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 (edited) Yet NHS are recruiting from OS :angry: Helps drive wages down Also I have been saying this for the last two years. There is no nurse shortage, it is a con. A colleague's daughter is a doctor who works in a state hospital. She says the hospital has major problems with infection because there are not enough nurses to get to all the patients. A nurse has to see a huge number of patients each day, and washing her hands between each visit means that she will not be able to get round all of them. There are not enough nurses to patients. Is it too much for them to demand a managable workload and a decent salary? As a graduate and after several years' experience, why should a nurse accept an annual salary of under £20K, with a ceiling management salary of 25K? How many peoplke on this forum would be happy with that? Nursing pay There are plenty of experienced nurses around, but not currently working (Wonder why?). I think the problem is that the government refuses to put any more money into the health service. After all, most of the decision makers use private health, so why should they care? Edited November 9, 2005 by FedupTeddiBear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 A colleague's daughter is a doctor who works in a state hospital. She says the hospital has major problems with infection because there are not enough nurses to get to all the patients. A nurse has to see a huge number of patients each day, and washing her hands between each visit means that she will not be able to get round all of them. There are not enough nurses to patients. Is it too much for them to demand a managable workload and a decent salary? There are plenty of nurses around, but not currently working. I think the problem is that the government refuses to put any more money into the health service. After all, most of the decision makers use private health, so why should they care? What you are saying then is that there isn't a nurse shortage - just that they can't all get jobs. If there are plenty of nurses but not enough in the hospitals then the problem must be that the NHS hosptial, trusts etc..can't afford to employ them. Why? because they have priced themselves out of the market. The government have been pouring money into the health service but the NHS is a bottemless pit - like it has always been. The NHS has been calling 'crisis of funding' ever since it was born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedupTeddiBear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 (edited) What you are saying then is that there isn't a nurse shortage - just that they can't all get jobs. If there are plenty of nurses but not enough in the hospitals then the problem must be that the NHS hosptial, trusts etc..can't afford to employ them. Why? because they have priced themselves out of the market. The government have been pouring money into the health service but the NHS is a bottemless pit - like it has always been. The NHS has been calling 'crisis of funding' ever since it was born. See my edited post above, with examples of nurses salaries. As an experienced graduate, I wouldn't work for that! The source of "bottomless pit" qualities are the "administrative posts" as seen in so many other parts of the public sector, not the qualified health workers themselves!. See the threads on "tax abuser of the week"! Edited November 9, 2005 by FedupTeddiBear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 See my edited post above, with examples of nurses salaries. As an experienced graduate, I wouldn't work for that! The source of "bottomless pit" qualities are the "administrative posts" as seen in so many other parts of the public sector, not the qualified health workers themselves!. See the threads on "tax abuser of the week"! I accept your argument that there are many examples of non jobs and "tax abuser of the week" but we can't keep hiking up everyones wage just because someone else earns more. BTW I know plenty of graduates who work for less than a nurses wage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smell the Fear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 The government have been pouring money into the health service but the NHS is a bottemless pit - like it has always been. The NHS has been calling 'crisis of funding' ever since it was born. Of course there are inefficiencies (as there are in all large organisations, public or private), but the crisis of funding is a reality. You seem to have ignored my statement regarding "free market" healthcare costs in the US - they are much higher per capita than the UK. Doctors and nurses earn much more in a free market. The reason they are cheaper in the UK is because the government imports thousands every year, to the detriment of developing countries who are deprived of their healthcare professionals. To say they have priced themselves out of the market is rubbish. There is no real market, and they already work for less than they would receive in a free market (and less than comparably qualified, dedicated and experienced staff do in any other industry). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedupTeddiBear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Of course there are inefficiencies (as there are in all large organisations, public or private), but the crisis of funding is a reality. You seem to have ignored my statement regarding "free market" healthcare costs in the US - they are much higher per capita than the UK. Doctors and nurses earn much more in a free market. The reason they are cheaper in the UK is because the government imports thousands every year, to the detriment of developing countries who are deprived of their healthcare professionals. To say they have priced themselves out of the market is rubbish. There is no real market, and they already work for less than they would receive in a free market (and less than comparably qualified, dedicated and experienced staff do in any other industry). Well said! I think our government will do anything to keep costs down, including rob other countries of their indispensable health workers. I think some of the posters on this thread fail to realise that paying insufficient wages for huge amounts of unpleasant work discourages our young people form entering nursing as a career, and encourages more experienced nurses to seek alternative employment, leaving an unholy mess in our hospitals. Think of the social and health problems that would create for the country as a whole. Nurses are indispensable members of society, and the government needs to realise that they are worth more that the time-wasting tax abusers. But then maybe some of us think they will never need to use a state hospital. Maybe they are on big enough salaries (unlike the nurses they care so little for) to afford private haealth care. After all, perhaps that is that the way Britain needs to go as a whole??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Of course there are inefficiencies (as there are in all large organisations, public or private), but the crisis of funding is a reality. You seem to have ignored my statement regarding "free market" healthcare costs in the US - they are much higher per capita than the UK. Doctors and nurses earn much more in a free market. The reason they are cheaper in the UK is because the government imports thousands every year, to the detriment of developing countries who are deprived of their healthcare professionals. To say they have priced themselves out of the market is rubbish. There is no real market, and they already work for less than they would receive in a free market (and less than comparably qualified, dedicated and experienced staff do in any other industry). You don't need a 'free market' to price yourself out of a market. There is, as you say, no real market but there is an issue of supply and demand. If you remember the firemen strike over pay and the subsequent inquiry into pay one of the reasons used to deny the firefighters the pay they asked was that there were plenty of applicants for every job. Look at it another way...why don't cleaners get paid more than the minimum wage? Because there are plenty of people who can and will do it for that money. In a capitalist society labour is a tradable commodity. The reason they are cheaper in the UK is because the government imports thousands every year, to the detriment of developing countries who are deprived of their healthcare professionals. To say they have priced themselves out of the market is rubbish. They have priced themselves out of the market because the government can get the labaour cheaper elsewhere - that is exactly the point! I am not saying it is perfect - I strongly disagree with importing skilled labour from developing countries but the government is not a charity - it won't pay nurses more just because they want it. The government pays nurses what they do BECAUSE THEY CAN. I/you/we may not like it but it is a fact of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedupTeddiBear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 (edited) You don't need a 'free market' to price yourself out of a market. There is, as you say, no real market but there is an issue of supply and demand. If you remember the firemen strike over pay and the subsequent inquiry into pay one of the reasons used to deny the firefighters the pay they asked was that there were plenty of applicants for every job. Look at it another way...why don't cleaners get paid more than the minimum wage? Because there are plenty of people who can and will do it for that money. In a capitalist society labour is a tradable commodity. The reason they are cheaper in the UK is because the government imports thousands every year, to the detriment of developing countries who are deprived of their healthcare professionals. To say they have priced themselves out of the market is rubbish. They have priced themselves out of the market because the government can get the labaour cheaper elsewhere - that is exactly the point! I am not saying it is perfect - I strongly disagree with importing skilled labour from developing countries but the government is not a charity - it won't pay nurses more just because they want it. The government pays nurses what they do BECAUSE THEY CAN. I/you/we may not like it but it is a fact of life. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys!!!! The government CAN'T AFFORD to pay nurses so little. This is why there are so few nurses to the millions of patients, why infection is rampant, why old people have to lie in their own sh*t for a whole day. I suppose you will be happy to use THIS health service when you next need an op? Edited November 9, 2005 by FedupTeddiBear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 By employing more managers? By the Baby Boomers living longer and living healthier lifestyles thanks to the HPI they can purchase the best modern drugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 You pay peanuts, you get monkeys!!!! You are probably right. BUT economics is economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smell the Fear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 You don't need a 'free market' to price yourself out of a market. There is, as you say, no real market but there is an issue of supply and demand. If you remember the firemen strike over pay and the subsequent inquiry into pay one of the reasons used to deny the firefighters the pay they asked was that there were plenty of applicants for every job. Look at it another way...why don't cleaners get paid more than the minimum wage? Because there are plenty of people who can and will do it for that money. In a capitalist society labour is a tradable commodity. The reason they are cheaper in the UK is because the government imports thousands every year, to the detriment of developing countries who are deprived of their healthcare professionals. To say they have priced themselves out of the market is rubbish. They have priced themselves out of the market because the government can get the labaour cheaper elsewhere - that is exactly the point! I am not saying it is perfect - I strongly disagree with importing skilled labour from developing countries but the government is not a charity - it won't pay nurses more just because they want it. The government pays nurses what they do BECAUSE THEY CAN. I/you/we may not like it but it is a fact of life. By your logic, we could import cleaners from China, house them in tents on wasteland, feed them on a cup of rice per day and pay them £500 per year. The country would be spotlessly clean. We could apply the same logic to all industries. Who cares about the citizens of the UK as long as the shareholders and taxpayers are happy? The problem is that all the taxpayers would have to compete with the imported labour, driving everyone into poverty (apart from the shareholders, who would reap the rewards of cheap labour in a global market). Unfortunately that is not in the best interests of the majority of the Uk's citizens. Remember that this country belongs to us, not the shareholders. They are only tolerated as long as the relationship is beneficial to us as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedupTeddiBear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Do you not have the forsight to consider what will happen to our great "highly economically developed" country in the future? I have heard foreigners refer to Britain as the "third world" of western Europe already! Doesn't poor healthcare and poor education sound familiar of an inefficiently run African state? (Consider teachers - not too different, but paid slightly more. The workload has been steadily increasing, with ever more amounts of "admin" to do, huge legal risks, worsening behaviour and "inflation"-linked salary increases. Right now trouble is looming for Britain's education, since fewer and fewer young people are entering teaching and over 60% of teachers are now over age 50!! Hmm.. Something in the attempts at postponing the retirement age??? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charlie The Tramp Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Hmm.. Something in the attempts at postponing the retirement age??? ) Well in our current situation of taking on massive debt to buy a home, they may in the future be looking at 40 year mortgages. So a 30 year old would be 70 years of age when the mortgage gets repaid. Just in time to retire debt free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 By your logic, we could import cleaners from China, house them in tents on wasteland, feed them on a cup of rice per day and pay them £500 per year. The country would be spotlessly clean. We could apply the same logic to all industries. Who cares about the citizens of the UK as long as the shareholders and taxpayers are happy? Not far from that situation already. I'm still expecting an employment crunch where the bank of available jobs dwindles to such an extent that those with high levels of financial commitments when losing their job will not only struggle to find a matching job/wage but may actually struggle to find a job at any reasonable wage. That is when forced sales crumple the economy and housing market in one fell swoop. Maybe this is already happening as evidenced by the rapidly rising bankruptcy rate. I'm not sure what % of the UK markets are actually UK owned now (it may be a lot lower than you expect) and in a lot of cases the shareholders are getting poor returns - it is the top level of these companies that are really making a killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedupTeddiBear Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Well in our current situation of taking on massive debt to buy a home, they may in the future be looking at 40 year mortgages. So a 30 year old would be 70 years of age when the mortgage gets repaid. Just in time to retire debt free. Charming thought. People retiring at 65 with mortgages still to pay, no pensions as we know them (they will all have collapsed, and the state pension will not have increased for the past X years), a useless, or failed health system with lots of poorly educated people working in it to take care of these pensioners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad'un Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have got no sympathy with the doctors or nurses. Why do they think that they, and they alone, should be guarenteed a job, in a specified sector when they finish training? What other occupations does this? The constant demands from the doctors and nurses for more and more pay for less and less work has bankrupt this health service. They seem to think there is a bottomless pit of money that should be used to pay them more, give them generous pensions and even provide subsidised housing etc. All you ever hear from this profession is 'me,me,me' - more pay, more power, more privileges. They have priced themselves out of the market and dragged the NHS down with them. They only have themselves to blame. And on what do you base your "astute" opinion / judgement? Doctors and Nurses are for the most part, heroic (speaking from plenty of personal experience). Sure, as in any sector there is dead wood but I'll bet you that percentage wise, there is more work per pound comes from doctors and nurses than other workers. Too many behind the scenes managers with non-jobs in the NHS and a heck of a lot of wastage with p*ss poor management. (again from experience) It pains me that idiot footballers earn more than some of these truly dedicated people who save lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.