Chemical Weapons In Iraq

[Samuel Whiskers]

Read an article in the Independent today discussing alleged us of chemical weapons by Americans (ie white phosphorus ammo rounds and some kind of napalm) in Fallujah last year. Apparently there was a program on Italian tv about it yesterday morning.

What a surprise that this topic was not mentioned in the News at Ten. I thought it might be on Newsnight, but no, not even there.

Surely even as an allegation this is more important than future Council Tax rises etc. etc.

Seem to remember something about Saddam and chemical weapons, but can't quite recall ...

Have the priorities and orientation of the media in this country have reached a new low?

[zuzuspetals]

White phosphorous has been used to produce a smokescreen for infantry for decades. Also, phosphorus is commonly used in illuminatory flares. "Americans use Flares in Fallujah" isn't really an juicy enough headline is it? It would be factuallly correct though. Phosphorous munitions do not fall under any category of 'Chemical Weapons' under any protocol or treaty of which I am aware, be it the Hague convention, The Geneva convention or any UN, NATO, EC resolution or mandate.

Indeed, I can state for fact that British infantry are trained with 'white phos'' grenades as a matter of course.

[Wankan]

I just finished watching an Italian documentary and the bodies certainly appeared to be suffering from chemical burns (skin hanging off etc) .

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiest...allujah_ING.wmv

or

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiest...allujah_ENG.ram

Audio is mainly in English

[zuzuspetals]

A look at the backgrounds of all sources quoted for the story shows each of them to have affiliations and motives that suggest a clear political agenda, which is completely unreported by the Independent. While such affiliations and motives do not of course disprove the claims, the reader should be told.

The claims consist entirely of the testimony of one disaffected ex-soldier, some comments and a few seconds of video provided by Tareq ( director of "Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah", an organisation whose focus is to promote war crimes charges against the Americans ), and some photos that could easily have been manipulated. Again, this is not to say that the claims are necessarily false - but it does call into question their completely uncritical reporting by the Independent.

The documentary includes a statement from the UK Defence Ministry -

"The incendiary bomb MK 77 does not have the same composition as napalm, but it has the same destructive effect. "

The US is specifically not bound by the incendiary weapons protocol of the UN convention referred to. There is no evidence of any use on other than military targets.

[curious1]

This film is interesting, but on second viewing, I had the uneasy feeling that it was incredibly manipulative.

Many graphic images of dead that may or may not have been killed in the way described by the people featured. Granted, there were some bodies with skin falling off, and the admission by the UK government provides confirmation of the fact, but the film lacked a certain integrity that allegations of this type require.

Now, I am saying this, not because I don't believe the allegations, but because I think its a shame that the allegations can be so easily discounted by the establishment and others.

I suppose the issue is this : napalm is banned because of its indescriminate destruction. White phosphorouse should be banned on the same grounds.

Legally, whats happened seems to be ok.... morally, its reprehensible.

As the ex-MP (who also resigned without ANY coverage in the media) says.... the hypocracy STINKS!

[Catch22]

A look at the backgrounds of all sources quoted for the story shows each of them to have affiliations and motives that suggest a clear political agenda, which is completely unreported by the Independent. While such affiliations and motives do not of course disprove the claims, the reader should be told.

The claims consist entirely of the testimony of one disaffected ex-soldier, some comments and a few seconds of video provided by Tareq ( director of "Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah", an organisation whose focus is to promote war crimes charges against the Americans ), and some photos that could easily have been manipulated. Again, this is not to say that the claims are necessarily false - but it does call into question their completely uncritical reporting by the Independent.

The documentary includes a statement from the UK Defence Ministry -

"The incendiary bomb MK 77 does not have the same composition as napalm, but it has the same destructive effect. "

The US is specifically not bound by the incendiary weapons protocol of the UN convention referred to. There is no evidence of any use on other than military targets.

apologists like you make me *******sick

[Karen]

Let me start by saying I am in a pretty foul mood today. A stomach bug has been making the rounds through the house. My house is a pig sty, and I have a mountain of laundry to do, and to top it all off, today is my 'turn' with the stomach bug.

Let me also say I really do love my country. I think the good old US of A is a wonderful place. Not that I believe we are perfect or anything.

IMHO it doesn't matter if the story about chemical weapons is true or not. (I didn't follow the link, I just can't today) It's believable. I also heard some news about David Hicks, an Australian being help at Gitmo and I quote (because I can't bring myself to 'say' the words).

"The goddam USA tortured him by sodomizing him and there is actually hard evidence including photographic evidence. Bastards."

Again, I don't know how true it is, but it's believable. What the @#$% is wrong with us? 4 years ago, it would have been unthinkable to use those words in a sentence like that.

When the president of the USA says we do not torture, my first thought should not be "He's lying, I have seen pictures that say otherwise." Never mind that there should be no reason to even ask a question like that!

I hope I don't sound unpatriotic. Like I said, I do love my country, I'm just not very proud of it right now.

Now if you will excuse me, I’m going to go dig a hole and hide.

[Harry Sacks]

Hope you feel better soon, Karen.

A sub-commission of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights appointed a 'rapporteur' to investigate the use of depleted uranium weapons among other types of weapons, after passing a resolution which categorised depleted uranium weapons alongside such as nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, napalm, and cluster bombs as a 'weapon of indiscriminate effect'.

http://www.cadu.org.uk/intro.htm

[Gundog]

Here are some FACTS

White phosphorus pound for pound is not as destructive as napalm because it is a solid that burns upon contact with air. It will only burn human flesh where it is in contact with it. Napalm is a liquid that is spead over a large area in such a way as you would spray water from your mouth, like riple H does on the wrestling show, and then ignited hence the large area effects of it. So to say that White Phos is used a WMD or chem weapon inflicing mass casualties is spurious. You would need a weapon the size of a caravan to inlfict such damage and no US/Uk aircraft is designed to carry one.

So yes do keep up the pressure on BLIAR about his misdeeds but do not give him any ammo to say that his detractors are talking through the hole in their arrse.

Peaceable men sleep well at night knowing that rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf- George Orwell.

[zuzuspetals]

The original article made much of the fact that clothing was intact on many of the burned bodies:

Original Article

“dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved”

A subsequent article

“John Pike, director of the Washington-based military studies group GlobalSecurity.Org, said the smoke caused by the bombs could confuse or blind the enemy or mark a target. "If it hits your clothes it will burn your clothes and if it hits your skin it will just keep on burning,"”

Here's more

from the Emergency War Surgery NATO Handbook:

"Many antipersonnel weapons contain white phosphorus. Fragments of this metal, which ignite upon contact with the air, may be driven into the soft tissues; however, most of the cutaneous injury resulting from phosphorus burns is due to the ignition of clothing, and is treated as conventional thermal injury."

So ... most cutaneous injury caused by this commonly used weapon results from "the ignition of clothing". This, along with Mr. Pike's observation, casts grave doubt upon a key basis for the assertions that phosphorus was even used at all.

Am I an apologist? No, by no means do I believe everything I'm told by the powers that be, but I also try to apply that same cynicism to journalists out there, otherwise I'm just swallowing someone else's agenda. Are you saying it's ok not to believe what you're told when it comes via Government, but perfectly fine to swallow every other story without at least attempting to run it through a logic filter?

Journalists give you their story (and not the facts) because they believe that this is a higher truth than mere facts. And also they believe journalism is ennobled by pursuing a "higher" agenda and not sticking neutrally to facts.

This way of thinking, unfortunately, is on this thread too, with comments along the lines of:

IMHO it doesn't matter if the story about chemical weapons is true or not. It's believable.

The gist of curious1's post is “If only the fakes were more convincing”

As if it’s OK to make up the news as long as it fits your own prejudices

Shoddy journalism like this should be an embarrassment to an opponent of the war.

[Karen]

zuzuspetals,

When I said it was believable, I didn't mean that in a movie way. I meant the US has fallen hard and fast. How many of the posters here would have given this report a second look 5 years ago? I know I would have said "WHATEVER"

There as a bill in the US Senate. Making torture illegal (I can't believe it wasn't before) anyway. It passed 90 to 9. I can't believe 9 of our good Senators are pro-torture. (and Dick Chaney, the Vice president of the US, lobbied hard in support of torture)

I heard reports of Napalm being used at the beginning of the war.

I agree with you about making up the news, shameful if it comes from the right or left.

[murpaul]

Let me start by saying I am in a pretty foul mood today. A stomach bug has been making the rounds through the house. My house is a pig sty, and I have a mountain of laundry to do, and to top it all off, today is my 'turn' with the stomach bug.

Let me also say I really do love my country. I think the good old US of A is a wonderful place. Not that I believe we are perfect or anything.

IMHO it doesn't matter if the story about chemical weapons is true or not. (I didn't follow the link, I just can't today) It's believable. I also heard some news about David Hicks, an Australian being help at Gitmo and I quote (because I can't bring myself to 'say' the words).

"The goddam USA tortured him by sodomizing him and there is actually hard evidence including photographic evidence. Bastards."

Again, I don't know how true it is, but it's believable. What the @#$% is wrong with us? 4 years ago, it would have been unthinkable to use those words in a sentence like that.

When the president of the USA says we do not torture, my first thought should not be "He's lying, I have seen pictures that say otherwise." Never mind that there should be no reason to even ask a question like that!

I hope I don't sound unpatriotic. Like I said, I do love my country, I'm just not very proud of it right now.

Now if you will excuse me, I’m going to go dig a hole and hide.

Well done, Karen, good post. I'm not a Yank, but I think its you thats patriotic. Your country has traditionally been the champion of free speech and human rights. That your president has disregarded the rights your fore-fathers struggled for makes HIM unpatriotic, not Americans who protest against the policies of the administration.

You're right, how can abusing the liberties of your country do anything but make enemies. Torture doesnt produce results, a tortured man will tell you anything to make it stop, it doesnt make it true. Hope you get well soon.

[Rapid Descent]

I have stumbled across conclusive evidence of the use of chemical weapons by the U.S. of A. in Iraq.

There is considerable evidence that the US used large quantities of dihydrogen monoxide during the invasion. Find out more about the frightening dangers of this chemical here.

I will go to the press tomorrow with this shocking story unless the CIA get to me first.

PS: Murpaul, I agree the US has been the champion of free speech, and many other things, but human rights? Since when? The last time the US was ahead of the game in terms of human rights was when they abolished slavery. For the two centuries since that happened, they've been pretty consistently "behind the curve".

[Karen]

murpaul & dom,

Thank you, yes I am feeling better, and am even able to get my house in resionable shape.

[Sledgehead]

Now if you will excuse me, I’m going to go dig a hole and hide.

Hope you do a little better than the guy that dug this one!

By the way Karen, it isn't your Country that is the problem. It isn't even the people. It's the people governing the people.

You are quite right to be worried about them. Look at that picture. That's the legendary bunkers connected by underground autobahns we were all told about!

[Catch22]

A look at the backgrounds of all sources quoted for the story shows each of them to have affiliations and motives that suggest a clear political agenda, which is completely unreported by the Independent. While such affiliations and motives do not of course disprove the claims, the reader should be told.

The claims consist entirely of the testimony of one disaffected ex-soldier, some comments and a few seconds of video provided by Tareq ( director of "Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah", an organisation whose focus is to promote war crimes charges against the Americans ), and some photos that could easily have been manipulated. Again, this is not to say that the claims are necessarily false - but it does call into question their completely uncritical reporting by the Independent.

The documentary includes a statement from the UK Defence Ministry -

"The incendiary bomb MK 77 does not have the same composition as napalm, but it has the same destructive effect. "

The US is specifically not bound by the incendiary weapons protocol of the UN convention referred to. There is no evidence of any use on other than military targets.

Edit: Karen please accept my apologises for not wishing you a quick recovery, as this the first time I have revisited this thread to post.

Zuzu

Considering the US Military have gone from a complete denial of using White Phosphorus munitions as a means of killing people with in Fallujah. To now ADMITTING in the face of overwhelming evidence that they did indeed use it to kill people.

It kinda exposes your attempts to debunk evidence that serves to expose that which the US and UK try to hid from their electorate. As an agenda by yourself to hide crimes against humanity, based purely on the criteria in regard to "who" commited those crimes. Like I have said previously your motives are there for all to see. If you represent the face of civilised humanity God help us all, for you are no better than those you denounce as terrorists.

Oh and by the way as for it being in dispute as to White Phosphous being classified as a chemical weapon?...read on

"US Intelligence Classified White Phosphorus as 'Chemical Weapon'

By Peter Popham and Anne Penketh

The Independent UK

Wednesday 23 November 2005

The Italian journalist who launched the controversy over the American use of white phosphorus (WP) as a weapon of war in the Fallujah siege has accused the Americans of hypocrisy.

Sigfrido Ranucci, who made the documentary for the RAI television channel aired two weeks ago, said that a US intelligence assessment had characterised WP after the first Gulf War as a "chemical weapon."

The assessment was published in a declassified report on the American Department of Defense website. The file was headed: "Possible use of phosphorous chemical weapons by Iraq in Kurdish areas along the Iraqi-Turkish-Iranian borders."

Full article can be read at Truthout.org but be warned Zusu its one of those God Dang American sponsered Anti American websites

To summerize, on this and other threads there is not much that you say that stands up to scrutiny. May I suggest you have possibly been born in the wrong century. Tying those accused of witchcraft to ducking stools would seem to be a career you would have been well qualifed to pursue.

Edit: removed duplicate post of content

[Winston Smith]

You guys sound like you might be interested in a web site I run...

Start The Revolution

It is an anti-spin site that I run with my wife and we receive no income frm it whatsoever. In fact it costs us lots!

If any of you doubt whether or not the US has used chemical weapons in in Iraq then I reccomened that you see the DVD "Beyond Treason". It is available through most torrent sites if you don't want to buy it but I warn you it is not an easy "watch".

There are a few graphic images but it is more the information that makes you feel ashamed to be human...

Cheery stuff!

[Catch22]

Hi Winston,

great content you got on that site of yours, and I like the way you can easily go through the site, especially the Blair and Eisenhower type image linking [excuse me not being web design jargon savvy]

But if you were to ask me to be totally honest, I could find a couple of areas which IMHO let your good work down.

1. Music thumping out of it on the intro page is in my opinion a no no [ and that's coming from a Queen , Meatloaf and John Lennon fan] though I like the graphics. Ask yourself this, if music thumping out was conducive to improving site traffic, how come the major sites don't use it?

2. Strong colours are also a no no, you don't see it on pro sites either, and white on black writing is the kiss of death.

Site content is whats important, and to be honest as good as the content is, I personaly would rather view it on sites like Znet, as its easier on the eye. But if your just wanting to target the young hip and angry, I guess its fine.

Using the word Revolution in the site title could also be off putting, converting the converted is not what its about, the Tories have proved that time and time again.

Converting the complacent...stopping the slide into a Stepford Wife's type of society, is what you need to be attempting. Not asking them to join a Revolution they quite frankly don't see the need for.

Recognising the fact we are Sleep Walking into a Totalitarian New World Order is the priority so that we can destroy it via the ballot box.

I personaly think the best type of website people could build wanting to alert others to how governments are intent on destroy the individuals right to know the truth. Would in the most part be a "hub" wherebye visitors to the site could find links to more established sites like Znet, CounterPunch, Open Democracy, Foreign Policy in Focus, Mother Jones et al.

That way those under the spell of the government "massaged and managed" Media [ the ones you wish to enlighten] would realise you are not a one man band crackpot but part of a growing group of free thinking people unfetted by the chains of ignorance. Indeed the flight to the web for honest reporting is growing by the day A News Revolution Has Begun

I hope I cause no offence, I mean it purely as constructive criticism.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)

[Winston Smith]

Hey Catch22

Cheers for having a look at the site and for all your comments. All have been taken on board and are about to be considered (although the nightmare that would be changing every page to black on white and a new, quieter colour scheme is one I cannot contemplate right now!!!)

The music however is something to seriously consider for the meantime!

The John Pilger article is fantastic and I shall be sending the link out to the Revolution mailing list tonight. I have most of his books and a couple of his documentaries and his words are always thought-provoking and I think, honest.

Sites such as Znet, CounterPunch ,Open Democracy and Foreign Policy In Focus, all of which I had never visited until I read about them in your post, are fantastic in terms of content, although I would hazard a guess that the people who read them are far better informed than most of the people we are aiming for.

The people we are aiming for are the ones who~

Firstly, aren’t exclusively interested in the America and it’s policies as they are well

catered for already (as you have shown)

Secondly, don’t have the time to go away and do the kind of in depth reading required to research and verify the other stories from the alternative news media let alone plough through the amount of reading in the main stories on these sites

Thirdly, like it simple. Our site is simple in its layout, as you pointed out and really easy to navigate. This is something that cannot be said for many of the sites that are working with similar content to us. I think this is why people seem to keep coming back. Maybe we are a good launch pad?

Fourthly, are looking to spend five minutes a day just seeing what is going on in the world from the view of the mainstream media and to have the opportunity to read what the implications are for them…not just absorb the information without considering it properly. For example the anti-terror laws and the recent implication from the government and main stream media that a rapist who won the lottery should be made to pay for his rehabilitation…people just don’t see that this is the start of the privatisation of the prison system and that if they were to find themselves in prison for whatever reason, that that could be their house and savings that disappear to pay for their “treatment”. We point it out to them using the examples the government has already given them.

We try to un-spin it for them and inspire them to get up and do something (which we are achieving to a very tiny degree). Even if our readers (of which there are an average of 1250 a day) just realise that whichever way you look at it the people in charge are doing a crap job and that at best they are incompetent and at worst just plain evil and that they cannot seem to get it right no matter how many chances you give them, that will be enough for the time being. We just want them to go away and have those discussions with their friends and their colleagues and their families. Judging from the constant sign up’s and conversations we have had with friends of ours it is achieving those aims so far. We are appealing to the common sense in people that just says, hey, this cannot be right.

So far it appears that our readers span the globe, span all age ranges, with some of the most active being in the late middle-age category…those who have retired and have time on their hands, children around the age of 14 who are telling others on their own blog sites to wake up, the newly married who are contemplating children and family life in Britain and the rest of the world as it today and people who have sites of their own wanting to add our RSS feed to theirs. We don’t appear to have limited ourselves to the young, hip and angry but I can see why this might be a concern and I will have a think about how to address this. (Maybe post on some pensioners action forums and see what their feedback is like??!!) The overall message we are getting though is keep up the good work and keep it simple.

As for converting the converted I don’t think we are doing that in the most part (obviously, it is vital that those who are converted are given the tools to spread the word to others and I think our site gives them one of those tools) but many of our readers are people who are genuinely fed up with the way the world is going and are looking for a way to explain it to others. You need a democracy to start a revolution and until people realise they are not living in a democracy they do not stand a chance…we are trying to show them that they are not. We are really trying to get people to make a change via lobbying their MP’s and via the ballot box….many of our stories encourage our readers to contact their local representatives, start or join local campaign groups and most importantly take an active role in their communities and their country.

We really do feel that we converting the complacent. Two friends came to visit us recently and they are both working for top law firms in London, have a nice house, enough money, good pensions etc and until their visit the issues we cared about were off limits as we knew that they would just think we were mental. They left after four days and returned to the UK having signed up to the mailing list, they started contacting us with stories, telling their co-workers about our site, seeing the world a little differently and promising that if anything ever happened to us or the site that they would do everything in their power to help. These two were never going to listen, their lives are sewn up, they have everything they need. But what they weren’t counting on was the fact that everything we were saying was the truth and was provable, mostly by going straight to the government spokespeople themselves or directly to Parliament or just by looking at numbers, like the house price figures for example. These two Cambridge Law Graduates, one with a 1st and one with a 2:1, suddenly stopped being complacent. I could regale you with another dozen or more stories such as this but the crux is simple…if you are telling the truth you don’t have to exaggerate, you don’t have to lie and you don’t even have to remember everything…it just is. I really hope the site layout won’t put people off….

We found that many of the other sites are so over-whelming that if you are only interested in one topic area you click away fairly quickly. Their home pages are enough to put us off a lot of the time so what would that do to people who are hearing all this information for the very first time? Using the techniques from the website (all be it without the music, graphics etc), we have so far managed to sway every single person we have discussed the issues with. This is why we created the links to stories and the archives in the way we did. We are just able to regurgitate the stories they are all reading, according to really simple categories that are of interest to them and explain how it might affect them directly, whilst trying to add some sarcasm and sometimes humour if the story allows! Simplicity is the key in face to face discussion and with the website.

Our links page in scant at the moment that is true and certainly all of the sites you mentioned would be perfect additions and I will add them as soon as I get a chance. It can’t do to look like a lone nut…where did that get Lee Harvey Oswald???!!!!!!

Thank you for all your comments, they are truly appreciated and absolutely necessary in order to create something that will be successful time after time and that will appeal to the widest possible audience. Everything you have said is being taken under advisement.

Hope you visit again and that we can do something to make some headway on your comments.

PS Sorry this is an essay!!! Please don’t ban me for prattling on!

[Solvent Celt]

suppose the issue is this : napalm is banned because of its indescriminate destruction. White phosphorouse should be banned on the same grounds.

Legally, whats happened seems to be ok.... morally, its reprehensible.

Napalm isn't "banned" it's agreed between certain contracting parties that they will not use it on each others armed forces. The US is not a signatory asfaik therefore it is not applicable.

Napalm is no more indiscriminate than the white hot shrapnel you get from conventional HE bombs.

The issue is that in Fallujah you had Islamic Insurgents who chose to hide amoungst a civillian population. From that point on civillian casualties were bound to occur.

The deaths of civillian caught up in the cross fire - whatever the munitions used are tragic accidents. I've seen nothing to suggest the US deliberately targets non-combatant civillians.

Personally I'm quite happy for coalition troops to use flamethrowers on the islamic insurgents who have shown they are more than happy to cut off the heads of bound and helpless victims live on the internet.

[Catch22]

The issue is that in Fallujah you had Islamic Insurgents who chose to hide amoungst a civillian population. From that point on civillian casualties were bound to occur.

Whats all this Islamic Insurgent crap, they were and are Iraqi's fighting an illegal occupation. Those who know what they are talking about [and that includes US commanders on the ground] admit 95%+ taking part in the RESISTANCE are Iraqi's.

It's only ignorent idiots who beleive the made up terminolgy fed to them by the same people who said Iraq had WMD, who beleived them when they said Saddam was involved in 9/11 ....its about OIL Stupid.

America does what all Empires have done in the past, they back the guys not in power to get their hands on that countrys resources. They did it when they backed Saddam in an abortive plot to assasinate the then leader of Iraq. CIA Plot They are now backing the other side, who if your watch the news, the last interim PM of Iraq says are as brutal as Saddams government.

The Iraqi war saw billions of US/UK tax payers money spent on destroying Iraq to save the stockmarkets. And the Iraqi people will pay for the massive reconstruction and occupation and security contracts costs paid to American companies out of the oil profits from oil fields run and reconstructed using yes you guessed it US oil interest. Vice President Cheney was CEO of Haliburtan the biggest supplier to support services in the oil industry. Its second biggest business interests is in supplying troop accomadation and logistical support to the US military. And the as then Security adviser to GW Condi Rice who was so big in the Oil Industry that they named an oil tanker after her.....if your still having trouble joining the dots up to see the big picture, I'll send my 6 year old grandson round his good at simple stuff like that.

Try googleing the Bush Dynasty company holdings, I think you will find defence contractors, construction companies, oil interests.........

The deaths of civillian caught up in the cross fire

in an illegal war of aggression entered into and against the conventions of the UN Charter. Hence the US/UK did not seek a mandate from the UN to attack Iraq because they knew they would not get it.......yer it's a bloody shame really about those civilians .....but as they say Sh@t Happens

It astounds me in this day and age how people can be so IGNORANT of historical facts, and why events on a globel scale take the course they do, when they are only a google click away.

Oh and by the way nobody was cutting heads of Westeners in Iraq until Westeners went over there and started killing Iraqi Men Women and Children by the thousands.

[Catch22]

Winston,

sounds like you have a good well supported site there, and I realise changeing colour schemes seems tiresome. Why not try an odd test page using say a simlare colour background as Znet use, its not as harsh as white. And just see what your active members think, ask them if they find it more relaxing to the eye.

There again it could just be me being and old un, when your kids are grown up and flown the nest you have more time to do your own thing. Must admit I used to be a Gung Ho right of centre supporter of anything the government told me. Because I was too busy supporting a family or running my business's. In any case why should I doubt what my government told me, hang em high and dig em deep, those trouble causing Johnny Foreigners, with the black or brown or olive skins. We always stood for everything and anything worth standing for. If there was trouble in the far flung corners of the Empire, India, Kenya , Malaysia, Cyprus and the like. Killing a few of the local trouble makers, crushing a few babies skulls under foot, or castrating the blighters calling for independance,and raping their womenfolk usually put a stop to it.

And yes I will pop back to your site and explore it a bit more, did you see this link I put up regards some informative news and referance sites Realities News

Catch Ya later

[Solvent Celt]

Whats all this Islamic Insurgent crap, they were and are Iraqi's fighting an illegal occupation. Those who know what they are talking about [and that includes US commanders on the ground] admit 95%+ taking part in the RESISTANCE are Iraqi's.

It's only ignorent idiots who beleive the made up terminolgy fed to them by the same people who said Iraq had WMD, who beleived them when they said Saddam was involved in 9/11 ....its about OIL Stupid.

Oh dear... clearly a fan boy of al-Zarqawi. OK if it makes you feel better replace Islamic Insurgent with "Freedom Fighter" if that floats your boat. My point still stands. If freedom fighters/islamic insurgents decide to hide amongst a civilian population and fail to wear a "fixed distinctive badge" to distinguish them from civilians then civilian casualties are likely to result. As long as the coalition aren't deliberately targeting civilians. If the "freedom fighters" cared one jot about the civillians in Faluja they would have ran to another hiding place.

For your info I didn't support the war as what the Iraqi's do on their own country is up to them. Whether the war is about oil or WMD is irelevant to the point of white phosphorous rounds.

Oh and by the way nobody was cutting heads of Westeners in Iraq until Westeners went over there and started killing Iraqi Men Women and Children by the thousands.

No but plenty of Iraqis were getting fed alive into paper shredders, gassed etc etc. by that nice Mr Saddam and his fascist regime.

And your Islamic chums were cutting off plenty of heads in Algeria, Chechnya, Bosnia etc prior to Iraq

[Catch22]

Oh dear... clearly a fan boy of al-Zarqawi..........And your Islamic chums

Why is it you apologists for an illegal war always accuse those who expose your ignorance in regard to failed US/UK Foreign Policy decisions. As being supporters of the "Anti Christs" no doubt a term you will be happy with, you always attempt to discredit those that expose the lie pedalled by the prostituted mainstream media outlets.

By infering I'm a supporter of Al-zarqawi et al just shows you have no grasp of reality whatsoever.

How can I put it to a DIMWIT like yourself......I know the teachings of the Roman Catholic faith, but that does not mean that I practice said religion or support its ideology.

You go to great lengths to support the State sponsored systematic industrialised methods of killing and maiming of thousands of innocent Iraqi's in a war that by any standards was recognised by the worlds judiciary as being an illegal war of aggression. Yet scream to the heavens how individual acts of barbarism are an afront to the civilised world .....You Solvent Celt are a sad excuse for a human being.

The most babaric indiscriminate acts of terror are employed by a Democratic State to destroy a city with a pre war population of over 350,000 inhabitants. In an act and lesson of ultimate terror designed in all its horror to intimidate the Iraqi population at large. An act so reminiscent of those carried out against Jew and Gentile settlements alike by Hitlers SS troops in WW2.

Yet you see fit to argue the labeling of white phosphrous, and spout utter drivel such as

If freedom fighters/islamic insurgents decide to hide amongst a civilian population and fail to wear a "fixed distinctive badge" to distinguish them from civilians then civilian casualties are likely to result.

Your a complete and utter idiot

I doubt for one minute you read the article I linked to CIA plot if you had you would have read at the bottom of the article

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

The US Military used their man Saddam to instigate a war with Iran, in which they the US then fed intelligence to BOTH sides to ENSURE the 9 year war was a stalemate.

The reason for this action? to decimate the military capability of Iran which we the UK and US had armed to the teeth during the Shah of Irans reign [another of our puppet rulers] to keep the people of Iran in check While our Oil Companies sucked out their oil resources at preferential rates. The Shahs secret police, like our other puppet in the region, Saddam's secret police, tortured Iranian nationalists so the Iranian people got rid of him.

So the US kept a war going for 9 years by sh@tting on their own man, the result was over a million casualties on both sides. Along with the US Veto blocking the UN's attempts to remove Israel from the illegal occupation of Palestine. And the US bankrolling of said occupation, and supplying the missiles used to kill Palestinian civillians.

The CIA support for the Military Dictatorship in Algeria and its ongoing US "Aid", which cancelled the elections once they realised an Islamist Political Party had won. A country where death squads slaughtered whole villages in full view of army barracks, without the Military intervening.

The biggest recipiant of US "Aid" after Israel is Eygpt, a country run as a Police State, such "aid" ensured the biggest Arab population in the region were denied self determination. Along with a Massive US Military presance in Saudia Arabia in support of another unpopulare regime imposed on the populace by ..you've guess it

Can you see were the anger is coming from, can you see why Arabs only wanting self determination are driven into the arms of those inciting them to rise up against the yoke of the Western Puppet Masters.

And that my IGNORANT FRIEND is why the 9/11 bombers where Saudi, Egyptian and Algerian nationals.......Not one Iraq, but I bet there would be plenty Iraqi volunteers now.

So we have added Iraqi's to that growing list of Muslims sick and tired of us killing them by proxy or as in the case of the Iraq war, doing the killing ourselves......no doubt in time Iranian, Syrian and Indonesian Muslims will in due course be added to that long list of people seeking revenge.

The world is beset with terrorism as a direct result of a failed post WW2 US Foreign Policy, which drove the Arab Street into the arms of the Islamist hard line fundamentelists

I wonder what would happen if Pakistanin nationalists over threw the dictatorship that sized power from the elected government. I doubt the US would attack an Islamist regime in Pakistan directly because they have the Nuclear bomb. But considering the Neo Conservative Christian fundamentalist thinking in the White House these days. No doubt attempts at instigating a war between Pakistan and its nuclear neighbour India, could achieve the same ends as in the Iran/ Iraq war........ Muslim on Hindu ....... I dont see GW's religious advisor Jerry Falwell having a problem with that do you......or as I suspect you will have to do a bit of googling to find out who the hell Jerry is.

Only the American electorate can get the world out of the Sh@t we are in.

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."

- Albert Einstein (1879-1955

[Catch22]

Well I just found this John Simpson BBC ARTICLE that would appear to support my last posts remarks about the US/UK connection to the Iran Iraq war

Quote the article;

He will presumably defend himself by pointing out that the Americans and British, who later overthrew him, were only too happy that he invaded the newly established Islamic Republic of Iran, following the overthrow of the Shah - Britain's and America's ally.

Maybe Britain and America dropped a hint that they wanted him to invade? If so, we will certainly hear about it in court during the weeks ahead.

Yes evidence like this which I linked to in my last post would certainly support that claim ...This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI

And in regard to Falluja

Quote the article:

Falluja factor

Other embarrassing things have already come out, though not yet at Saddam's trial. Documents recently leaked to the Daily Mirror in London, and now blocked from further publication by a gagging order from the British government, indicate a serious disagreement between Tony Blair, the British prime minister, and his friend President George W Bush last year.

Much has been made of Mr Bush's apparent suggestion about bombing al-Jazeera TV's studios, which may just have been a joke. More important was the difference of opinion over the fighting in Falluja, west of Baghdad.

In April 2004, US marines staged a ferocious onslaught on the town, on orders which apparently came direct from the White House.

The resistance was intense, and spread across Iraq. According to the leaked document, Tony Blair was worried that the backlash might drive the coalition forces out of Iraq altogether.

The resistance movement has gone from strength to strength ever since the attack on Falluja and though Tony Blair was wrong to think it might drive the coalition out immediately, the Americans and British have been on the defensive ever since.

Neither he nor President Bush would be considering a quick withdrawal from Iraq now if the resistance hadn't been so effective.

John Simpson has in this piece highlighted issuse's that anybody with half a mind to understand the reality of the Middle East and how it's peoples have been exploited, could find out for themselves. That the US and UK have through their past and present actions been the prime cause of World Terrorism as we know it today. And the illegal and brutal invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq has led to the escalation of said World Terrorism.

People died in the London bombings as a direct result of Britains participation in murdering Iraqi civillians in an illegal war. To deny that fact is an insult to those people who lost their lives as a result, and the relatives who have to live with that loss. Tony Blair is where the anger should be focused, not on some young teaching assistant who died taking revenge for what he saw was an attack on fellow Muslims. The teachings of Islam state when fellow Muslims come under attack they must fight the aggressor.

That is the reality, sooner people face up to it, the sooner there will be an end to all this killing. Accusing people like me of being supporters of terrorism does not alter the reality. Convincing the Muslim World at large is the priority, and you don't do that by killing them on an industrial scale. They know the reality, they live the reality, they die the reality, so all the news manipulation in the world wont convince them otherwise.

But using Solvet Celts flawed logic, John Simpson must like me be by definition clearly a fan boy of al-Zarqawi..........And your Islamic chums