Rnli

[magictorch]

RNLI

It is becoming very sad.

[right_freds_dead]

the same problem with ambulance crews and the like. home helps and anybody on real wages of £5 - £9 ph.

these workers are not millionaires. how they they afford these gingerbread prices.

the more i read the more i know a crash is coming.

society wants to take more and more of the young buyers money,

but they also want the young to work to support them to.

they cant have it both ways my friends.

also, dont believe this about 'holiday homes' either.

the welsh locals are just as guilty of cashing in on their own young as anybody else.

Edited November 7, 2005 by right_freds_dead

[Marina]

the same problem with ambulance crews and the like. home helps and anybody on real wages of £5 - £9 ph.

these workers are not millionaires. how they they afford these gingerbread prices.

the more i read the more i know a crash is coming.

society wants to take more and more of the young buyers money,

but they also want the young to work to support them to.

they cant have it both ways my friends.

also, dont believe this about 'holiday homes' either.

the welsh locals are just as guilty of cashing in on their own young as anybody else.

Indeed, there is a schism forming between those that own property and those that don't.

There is a quote in that article - something like 'what could be more rewarding than saving a life?'.

But, it seems clear that before you can save a life it is not unreasonable to expect to have a life. Since the dawn of time people have had families and stayed in extended family groups with each generation fulfilling a role. Now greedy property owners are pricing their own children out of the market.

My 16 year old son (in the Lower 6th - or year 12 for youngsters) is absolutely serious - he says as soon as he is 18 he is off to New Zealand.

Pause for people to take the piss - can't wait to get away from me etc.

I know he is going to leave the nest one day - I didn't realise it would be at 18 and as far round the world as it is possible to get. Why does he want to go? He hates the country he is growing up in. He sees and has to deal with all the violence on the streets - he just shrugs his shoulders when you talk to him about it and says 'this place is a sh*thole.' He says 'what's the point of going to University and coming out with a massive debt - and a degree doesn't guarantee me a good job?' I have no answer.

Whilst I tend to agree with him I have always been careful to paint an optimistic painting of the future (for him and his brother). I want them to think they are growing up in a civilized country with opportunities.

The reality seems to be the opposite for young people.

[right_freds_dead]

he seems bright, but i think after a few years away he would miss his family. and so he should.

why should be be forced out of the country. why cant he live within the vicinity of the family town ?

get rid of BTL lending and he could.

[erranta]

Indeed, there is a schism forming between those that own property and those that don't.

There is a quote in that article - something like 'what could be more rewarding than saving a life?'.

But, it seems clear that before you can save a life it is not unreasonable to expect to have a life. Since the dawn of time people have had families and stayed in extended family groups with each generation fulfilling a role. Now greedy property owners are pricing their own children out of the market.

My 16 year old son (in the Lower 6th - or year 12 for youngsters) is absolutely serious - he says as soon as he is 18 he is off to New Zealand.

Pause for people to take the piss - can't wait to get away from me etc.

I know he is going to leave the nest one day - I didn't realise it would be at 18 and as far round the world as it is possible to get. Why does he want to go? He hates the country he is growing up in. He sees and has to deal with all the violence on the streets - he just shrugs his shoulders when you talk to him about it and says 'this place is a sh*thole.' He says 'what's the point of going to University and coming out with a massive debt - and a degree doesn't guarantee me a good job?' I have no answer.

Whilst I tend to agree with him I have always been careful to paint an optimistic painting of the future (for him and his brother). I want them to think they are growing up in a civilized country with opportunities.

The reality seems to be the opposite for young people.

But that's the WHOLE point.

Those in real power of this country have planned this.

Our 'so called' democratic leaders will take this country to the brink ie riots and societal breakdown until people are screaming for change and then offer you (as promised by Tony)

"The Third Way" - (some sort of feudal bondage?) whatever that is!

[2005]

Indeed, there is a schism forming between those that own property and those that don't.

There is a quote in that article - something like 'what could be more rewarding than saving a life?'.

But, it seems clear that before you can save a life it is not unreasonable to expect to have a life. Since the dawn of time people have had families and stayed in extended family groups with each generation fulfilling a role. Now greedy property owners are pricing their own children out of the market.

My 16 year old son (in the Lower 6th - or year 12 for youngsters) is absolutely serious - he says as soon as he is 18 he is off to New Zealand.

Pause for people to take the piss - can't wait to get away from me etc.

I know he is going to leave the nest one day - I didn't realise it would be at 18 and as far round the world as it is possible to get. Why does he want to go? He hates the country he is growing up in. He sees and has to deal with all the violence on the streets - he just shrugs his shoulders when you talk to him about it and says 'this place is a sh*thole.' He says 'what's the point of going to University and coming out with a massive debt - and a degree doesn't guarantee me a good job?' I have no answer.

Whilst I tend to agree with him I have always been careful to paint an optimistic painting of the future (for him and his brother). I want them to think they are growing up in a civilized country with opportunities.

The reality seems to be the opposite for young people.

If he was mine I would encourage him to go. I know many parents who have children of a similar age and most of the kids are saying the same thing. They just want to get out.

When we hear about the violence on the streets and Anti-social behaviour I think it is all to easy to forget that this is caused by a minority of youngsters. The majority are well behaved young people who want a decent life. BUT they are the ones who are more likely to be mugged/beaten up etc - not adults.

I feel a great deal of sympathy for the majority of todays youth. I don't see many prospects left for them in the UK

[Marina]

he seems bright, but i think after a few years away he would miss his family. and so he should.

why should be be forced out of the country. why cant he live within the vicinity of the family town ?

get rid of BTL lending and he could.

You're right. And it's one of the things that when I really think about it makes my blood boil. I am by nature and instinct a socialist - I suppose. I recognised a long time ago that socialism does not work very well. But then, nor does capitalism.

One has to accept capitalism (there are not enough of us prepared to try to topple the system! - only me as far as I know ) but I had always hoped that, much as I mistrust Labour (instead of being socialists that just employ layer after layer of useless bureaucrats), I hoped they could at least be relied on to do things that were somehow decent - in everyone's interest - not just for the benefit of one section of society.

The unchecked growth of BTL, the fact we have a Labour Prime Minister that is a BTL landlord, the fact our society seems to be disintegrating with people unable to afford to have children - and those that do subsequently finding their children unable to live near them when they grow up etc. etc. - well it really is unbelievable that those pr@tts in power seem to think everything is okay.

My son wants to emigrate at 18 because he can't see a future for himself in this country! - what a condemnation of this deeply cr@ppy society.

I just hope we have enough points to follow him! (Had always planned to go to France but seems they have problems of their own!)

[Warwickshire Lad]

The unchecked growth of BTL, the fact we have a Labour Prime Minister that is a BTL landlord, the fact our society seems to be disintegrating with people unable to afford to have children - and those that do subsequently finding their children unable to live near them when they grow up etc. etc. - well it really is unbelievable that those pr@tts in power seem to think everything is okay.

I am thinking of emigrating at some point although property in New Zealand is also in a bubble like it is in every Anglo-Saxon nation.

HPI is a disease to society which desperately needs a cure.

[Marina]

I am thinking of emigrating at some point although property in New Zealand is also in a bubble like it is in every Anglo-Saxon nation.

HPI is a disease to society which desperately needs a cure.

In a free market you have to use blunt tools. I wonder how HPI could be controlled?

Swingeing taxes on BTL would be a start.

Maybe capital gains on your own residence would put a brake on things?

Credit controls would help - but these would have to be introduced loosely and tightened over time.

Any other ideas?

[Property Dreamer]

Unfortunatly the vast majority of those who count are OO's. All these people are VI's and have a vote. If the government threaten to pop this bubble then the govenment will go pop with it.

[zuzuspetals]

In a free market you have to use blunt tools. I wonder how HPI could be controlled?

I don't think we have a free market in housing. Supply cannot easily expand with demand. That isn't the case with housing because the Gov't artificially restricts the number of houses with complex planning laws. The answer to HP inflation isn't more government regulation, it's less.

[Marina]

Unfortunatly the vast majority of those who count are OO's. All these people are VI's and have a vote. If the government threaten to pop this bubble then the govenment will go pop with it.

If you ever see unrest on the streets from disaffected youngsters (like in France now) - fed up with being priced out of property ownership and condemned to live in rented rooms for the rest of their lives - the rules will be changed double quick then.

It makes me smile(not sure about that) when I think of all the people on here going on about people renting more - i.e. long term renting etc.

The bubble has been built on a BTL explosion. This is based on sharing. i.e. young people sharing a flat or house.

When you get to 35 you get a bit fed up with this lifestyle. You actually want a place of your own. I have two nieces just over 30 - both with Uni debts still round their necks. They can afford to rent a shared flat or house. There is no way they can afford to rent a house on their own i.e. as a couple who might want to have a family one day.

I am telling you this thing is completely unsustainable. It might take a few more years - it might take an IR rise or two - it might just take a slow, natural course. But the current level of property prices is not, in the medium term, sustainable.

[Michael]

getting rid of BTL is a must but must be done by stealth.........(a word Gordon is already familiar with!)....as we might end up with the Australian ~Landlord tax situation a few years ago where landlords passed the taxes str8 onto their tenants who then went to the local authorities seeking housing as homeless people...........so the tax legislation was quickly reversed...

IMO changes in the tenancy laws would be preferable to taxes........

In a low inflation environment this whole HP thing could take a while to unravel....With debt not being eroded significantly by inflation as much as in recent history ..IR rises even 7 or 8 years from now could cause a crash.........Sudden increases in inflation and IRs now would speed up the whole cycle as high IRs would cripple both potential and recent entrants to the market....but once the high IRs had subsided the newly-inflated salaries would bring along the next boom earlier than would've otherwise been the case...

Whether you're a bull or bear it's undeniable we are in uncharted territory. ......as for the first time we have the combination of low IRs (even on 10 and 15 year money) with liberal lending policies......

Before 1970 IRs were always low but lending was rationed and between 1970 and the mid 90s IRs were high except for flashes-in-the-pan in the boom-bust cycle......long term cheap money simply wasn't available owing to inflation.........

Edited November 7, 2005 by Michael

[Fudge]

'what could be more rewarding than saving a life?'

Making money of course.

Funny I was just reading an article about the argument against socialism because of human nature,

and one example given of selfless behaviour was that of the men and women who man the lifeboat service are largely volunteers, risking their lives to save others – not for financial gain.

The fact that people still spend their time and risk their lives for complete stangers, for no money

in a society that does not appreciate what they do - kind of negates the humans are naturally

selfish argument. For me anyway.

[MarkG]

The fact that people still spend their time and risk their lives for complete stangers, for no money

in a society that does not appreciate what they do - kind of negates the humans are naturally

selfish argument.

Why? Humans are naturally selfish, but they're also naturally altruistic towards their relatives, since their relatives carry many of the same genes that they do... dying to save three brothers and sisters is genetically beneficial. Historically, since most people travelled so little until a few decades ago that most people in a fishing village were related to each other in some way, that easily justified taking some risk in order to, say, save the crew of a fishing boat that was sinking.

Also, frankly, I suspect there's a lot more selfish behaviour involved in 'life-saving' than many people would like to admit. Personally, if I was in a dead-end job in a Welsh coastal village, I'd be glad of the chance to go playing around on fast boats in the RNLI, even if it meant a small risk to my own life... particularly as it would probably help to pick up chicks too.

Edited November 7, 2005 by MarkG

[2005]

Why? Humans are naturally selfish, but they're also naturally altruistic towards their relatives, since their relatives carry many of the same genes that they do... dying to save three brothers and sisters is genetically beneficial. Historically, since most people travelled so little until a few decades ago that most people in a fishing village were related to each other in some way, that easily justified taking some risk in order to, say, save the crew of a fishing boat that was sinking.

Also, frankly, I suspect there's a lot more selfish behaviour involved in 'life-saving' than many people would like to admit. Personally, if I was in a dead-end job in a Welsh coastal village, I'd be glad of the chance to go playing around on fast boats in the RNLI, even if it meant a small risk to my own life... particularly as it would probably help to pick up chicks too.

What about giving blood. You don't even see the person you help, it isn't 'cool' or exciting and doesn't help you pick up chicks. But plenty of people still do it eveyday.

[MarkG]

What about giving blood.

Again, small risk to you, small chance of helping you or one of your relatives.

[OzzMosiz]

Unfortunatly the vast majority of those who count are OO's. All these people are VI's and have a vote. If the government threaten to pop this bubble then the govenment will go pop with it.

LAbour are better off popping it now, than it popping itself nearer election time!!

[dogbox]

one example given of selfless behaviour was that of the men and women who man the lifeboat service are largely volunteers, risking their lives to save others – not for financial gain.

Sorry to be contravercial, but 'financial' is not the only reward. Some people (life savers) also seek other kinds of reward that to them is just as valuable, if not more so than money.

I know a senior social worker well. He ownes 5 properties yet he loves being a social worker because he likes the feedback he gets from others for his percieved kindness. In other words he is greedy for adulation as others might be for cash.

In my village the least liked most mean spirited types are those the rest of us deem 'busy bodies'. On the surface these people give lots of 'free' time to local services / causes, but they dont fool the rest of us for 1 second.

[Timmy Manson]

Without wanting to be flamed with the usual hysterical blab about Drs and nurses not being paid slave wages I do think DB has a point. Often people use the argument that doctors, police, nurses etc should be paid £100k because bankers and accountants are.

To me this misses the point that people who choose to work in the 'caring' professions allegedly do so not because they want large amounts of money but because they want to help people, and in the case of many public sector jobs because they see it as less stressful and more secure than working in the private sector.

[Fudge]

Why? Humans are naturally selfish, but they're also naturally altruistic towards their relatives, since their relatives carry many of the same genes that they do... dying to save three brothers and sisters is genetically beneficial. Historically, since most people travelled so little until a few decades ago that most people in a fishing village were related to each other in some way, that easily justified taking some risk in order to, say, save the crew of a fishing boat that was sinking.

Also, frankly, I suspect there's a lot more selfish behaviour involved in 'life-saving' than many people would like to admit. Personally, if I was in a dead-end job in a Welsh coastal village, I'd be glad of the chance to go playing around on fast boats in the RNLI, even if it meant a small risk to my own life... particularly as it would probably help to pick up chicks too.

Good points.

Evolution shows that the driving force of all species is to survive and reproduce.

How is that achieved in todays societies consisting of millions of people, will a dog eat dog system work.

If mankind blows itself up in a nuclear war, and the only survivng species are cockroaches.

Is that survival of the fittest?

[Marina]

Sorry to be contravercial, but 'financial' is not the only reward. Some people (life savers) also seek other kinds of reward that to them is just as valuable, if not more so than money.

I know a senior social worker well. He ownes 5 properties yet he loves being a social worker because he likes the feedback he gets from others for his percieved kindness. In other words he is greedy for adulation as others might be for cash.

In my village the least liked most mean spirited types are those the rest of us deem 'busy bodies'. On the surface these people give lots of 'free' time to local services / causes, but they dont fool the rest of us for 1 second.

An interesting diversion. Most people I know (who have never had anything to do with a social worker in their lives) think social workers are useless, interfering w@nkers - to put it politely. I wonder why this bloke thinks he gets some sort of kudos from being a social worker.

I have to say, if I were in a boat that in a sudden storm got blown onto the rocks - I would be mighty grateful to the lifeboatmen who risked their lives to save mine. Which is why someone only has to wave a collecting box with RNLI on it and my hand goes straight into my pocket.

I don't see how anyone can seriously doubt their bravery or motivation. The days are long gone when they were putting to sea to save their own. You imagine the phone ringing on a November night with a Force 10 gale blowing - slip your gear on as you run to the lifeboat - hear 30' waves crashing on the beach. Do these blokes bottle it and say '******, we don't know the people in trouble anyway, feck 'em'. No, they take their lives in their hands to save others.

Personally, I find their actions uplifting and a reminder of what the human spirit is really like when left to itself.

You don't have to go back many generations and we are all related anyway.

Why? Humans are naturally selfish, but they're also naturally altruistic towards their relatives, since their relatives carry many of the same genes that they do... dying to save three brothers and sisters is genetically beneficial. Historically, since most people travelled so little until a few decades ago that most people in a fishing village were related to each other in some way, that easily justified taking some risk in order to, say, save the crew of a fishing boat that was sinking.

Also, frankly, I suspect there's a lot more selfish behaviour involved in 'life-saving' than many people would like to admit. Personally, if I was in a dead-end job in a Welsh coastal village, I'd be glad of the chance to go playing around on fast boats in the RNLI, even if it meant a small risk to my own life... particularly as it would probably help to pick up chicks too.

What about the bloke that gets up in the middle of the night leaving his wife and kids warm and safe in bed to go out and risk his life saving others?

[Mushroom]

A certain Mr. Murdoch can summon T. Blair who will attend without question.

Can the average lifeboat crewmember do the same?

[MarkG]

What about the bloke that gets up in the middle of the night leaving his wife and kids warm and safe in bed to go out and risk his life saving others?

Again, I'm sure it's more fun than another evening in front of the TV.

[Marina]

Have I missed something. Should the lifeboat bloke give Tony Blair a ring before the so'wester goes on? Or Mr. Murdoch? You've lost me.

Again, I'm sure it's more fun than another evening in front of the TV.

I'd agree if he was watching the telly. But, in my scenario, he was in bed asleep.