Creating An Underclass

[right_freds_dead]

i see from time to time posts about a social division between the haves and have nots.

a landlord, tenant society. a new order.

when you cut off a proportion of the population from the same opportunities as the rest. they wont just sit and take it. they start to destroy everything around them when they finnaly work out they have nothing to lose.

this is why i dont see a landlord-tenant society like some on here do.

its already borderline with the drinking violence in the weekend towns,.

4-5 more hopeless, pointless years will do it.

and we may see the likes of the riots in france here in the uk.

[New Darker Law]

An interesting point but I'm not so sure.

I think we here in Britain are far better at generating underclasses and keeping them in their place.

Perhaps it's all to do with the seemingly deep-seated class system that supposedly doesn't exist anymore thanks to Phoney Liar.

Anyways, my point is, we've had underclasses for literally generations in this country and riots haven't happened to the extent we see in France.

NDL

[2005]

and riots haven't happened to the extent we see in France.

NDL

Have you been living in a different country?

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

Wasn't it Mr Major's idea - the 'classless' society.

Given how little our society has to offer the average

guy right now, I would say he achieved it.

ABB

[homeless]

people are not going to live in servitude

The program bleak house showing on the bbc , will give you a good idea of the rentier inslaved class britain used to be.

Before in britain everyone knew there place, and dressed in the uniform of there class, when a working class serf met in the street a man of obviously greater wealth they practically cowered in there presence.the richer man would talk to them with a ruling arrogance, this would keep the working class in there place and bowing to anyone richer.

ie the poor were scared to hell of the greater power of the wealthier, it was only the wealthier that could afford the law, the influence to destroy your life, it's no wonder you bowed and scraped to them.And if you worked for them they had the power over if you starved or fed your children, nothing quite like this to shut you up.

To achieve today the same rentier/servant class would require the removal of all human right laws in the uk and access to the law ect.for instance all these things would need to happen to achieve this society.

removal of legal aid

removal of state pension

removal of all unemployment and disability benifits

the police once again there for the wealthy only

the removal of education and information to the poor

something to frighten the peasants from speaking out

the removal of the human rights act

The truth is the social security system is the one thing that prevents a society like that forming, and lets see see the government remove this.nu-labour are realy a party that wishes to control all aspects of peoples lives, they assume there better at making choices than the populance is, and will continue to grab as much from the people till the people say no more, i think were nearing that point.

[right_freds_dead]

removal of legal aid

partly done.

removal of state pension

just about complete.

removal of all unemployment and disability benifits

coming soon. authority housing already gone.

the police once again there for the wealthy only

true already.

the removal of education and information to the poor

pay per higher education.

something to frighten the peasants from speaking out

the removal of the human rights act

new terror laws

[Marina]

An interesting point but I'm not so sure.

I think we here in Britain are far better at generating underclasses and keeping them in their place.

Perhaps it's all to do with the seemingly deep-seated class system that supposedly doesn't exist anymore thanks to Phoney Liar.

Anyways, my point is, we've had underclasses for literally generations in this country and riots haven't happened to the extent we see in France.

NDL

It never ceases to fascinate me how little people either know or remember of our RECENT history.

All over the country in the early 80s there were severe riots in London, Bristol, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Leets, Newcastle etc - in fact in every major city.

I was working in London at the time. I found myself in the bizarre situation of a crowd of us listening to the radio every day to find out where the riots had started 'going off' so we could plan a route home. Where they happened it was weird - people were dragged out of their cars and their cars set on fire and there was widespread looting. It lasted a few weeks and settled down as quickly as it had started. What was weird was that no-one knew what the riots were about - or what caused them.

There were poll tax riots in the early 90s as well.

Brixton Riots 1981

More on riots

[New Darker Law]

Have you been living in a different country?

Okay, you show me a recent example of ten consecutive days of INCREASING rioting in the UK.

NDL

[2005]

see Marinas post above

[bring_it_on]

people are not going to live in servitude

The program bleak house showing on the bbc , will give you a good idea of the rentier inslaved class britain used to be.

Before in britain everyone knew there place, and dressed in the uniform of there class, when a working class serf met in the street a man of obviously greater wealth they practically cowered in there presence.the richer man would talk to them with a ruling arrogance, this would keep the working class in there place and bowing to anyone richer.

ie the poor were scared to hell of the greater power of the wealthier, it was only the wealthier that could afford the law, the influence to destroy your life, it's no wonder you bowed and scraped to them.And if you worked for them they had the power over if you starved or fed your children, nothing quite like this to shut you up.

To achieve today the same rentier/servant class would require the removal of all human right laws in the uk and access to the law ect.for instance all these things would need to happen to achieve this society.

removal of legal aid

removal of state pension

removal of all unemployment and disability benifits

the police once again there for the wealthy only

the removal of education and information to the poor

something to frighten the peasants from speaking out

the removal of the human rights act

The truth is the social security system is the one thing that prevents a society like that forming, and lets see see the government remove this.nu-labour are realy a party that wishes to control all aspects of peoples lives, they assume there better at making choices than the populance is, and will continue to grab as much from the people till the people say no more, i think were nearing that point.

Wasn't this one of the main attributes to the Anarchism movement across Europe which in part caused WW1?

Not the removal of welfare but the workers vs the upper classes. Good points though i'd say we are half way there.

[2005]

people are not going to live in servitude

The program bleak house showing on the bbc , will give you a good idea of the rentier inslaved class britain used to be.

Before in britain everyone knew there place, and dressed in the uniform of there class, when a working class serf met in the street a man of obviously greater wealth they practically cowered in there presence.the richer man would talk to them with a ruling arrogance, this would keep the working class in there place and bowing to anyone richer.

ie the poor were scared to hell of the greater power of the wealthier, it was only the wealthier that could afford the law, the influence to destroy your life, it's no wonder you bowed and scraped to them.And if you worked for them they had the power over if you starved or fed your children, nothing quite like this to shut you up.

To achieve today the same rentier/servant class would require the removal of all human right laws in the uk and access to the law ect.for instance all these things would need to happen to achieve this society.

removal of legal aid

removal of state pension

removal of all unemployment and disability benifits

the police once again there for the wealthy only

the removal of education and information to the poor

something to frighten the peasants from speaking out

the removal of the human rights act

The truth is the social security system is the one thing that prevents a society like that forming, and lets see see the government remove this.nu-labour are realy a party that wishes to control all aspects of peoples lives, they assume there better at making choices than the populance is, and will continue to grab as much from the people till the people say no more, i think were nearing that point.

I made a very similar point to this on another thread that was arguring that we could be moving towards a 'rentier' society (feudal system)

T o answer RFD points - it doesn't really matter who provides services - it is if people have a right to them and can access that matters. For example on housing - a local authroity still has a duty to house a homeless family - it doesn't matter if that is in a council house or a HA house.

BUT If people feel they are being removed then we will have tension and possibly riots. This is why I don;t feel we will see a 'rentier society'. There will be riots first.

I seem to remember one historian (can't remember who now) arguing that one of the one reason (amongst others) the welfare state received such cross party support was an upper/middle class fear of revolution.

[New Darker Law]

It never ceases to fascinate me how little people either know or remember of our RECENT history.

How patronising!

All over the country in the early 80s there were severe riots in London, Bristol, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Leets, Newcastle etc - in fact in every major city.

And how much do you know about French riots? Do you think these are the first they have ever had?

I was working in London at the time. I found myself in the bizarre situation of a crowd of us listening to the radio every day to find out where the riots had started 'going off' so we could plan a route home. Where they happened it was weird - people were dragged out of their cars and their cars set on fire and there was widespread looting. It lasted a few weeks and settled down as quickly as it had started. What was weird was that no-one knew what the riots were about - or what caused them.

Nobody knew what they were about? Really? I'm fascinated that somebody could be so close to the action and not know what they were about.

There were poll tax riots in the early 90s as well.

Yeah and there were countless riots in France too from students, employees, and disaffected immigrants.

Brixton Riots 1981

More on riots

A lot of information in those links thanks. My assertion still stands that we in the UK are far more effective at creating underclasses that in comparison with others are pretty apathetic.

NDL

Edit: Double post, dunno how that happened!

[Fancypants]

I made a very similar point to this on another thread that was arguring that we could be moving towards a 'rentier' society (feudal system)

T o answer RFD points - it doesn't really matter who provides services - it is if people have a right to them and can access that matters. For example on housing - a local authroity still has a duty to house a homeless family - it doesn't matter if that is in a council house or a HA house.

BUT If people feel they are being removed then we will have tension and possibly riots. This is why I don;t feel we will see a 'rentier society'. There will be riots first.

I seem to remember one historian (can't remember who now) arguing that one of the one reason (amongst others) the welfare state received such cross party support was an upper/middle class fear of revolution.

aye, but there is no comparable "Red Terror" lurking now to frighten the establishment into some kind of accomodation with the proles. Socialism has been defeated (or more accurately "out-spent") by capitalism and now the only real opposition is coming from the natural finity of the earth and its resources.

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

I'm fascinated that somebody could be so close to the action and not know what they were about.

1980

Mainly indigenous unemployed young males having a laugh, akin to the football hooligans of the time.

That`s how I remember and witnessed it in action. The first time I heard the saying brain dead.

[2005]

aye, but there is no comparable "Red Terror" lurking now to frighten the establishment

yes..the 'red scare' was also used to frighten the peeps (not just the establishment). A useful tool used to justify all sorts of things.

Does make you wonder about the current 'fear of terror' line being trotted about by USA/UKplc doesn't it.

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

I remember posting that we had very little serious crime in West Wales. Well, that's still the case, but over the last couple of months anti-social behaviour has become increasingly apparent, with vandalism, threatening behaviour and violence all becoming more prevalent. Signs of social breakdown.

And I thought it was the media hyping it all up until I experienced some of this s*** first hand.

And take a look at these figures - don't exactly give the impression of a very functional society -

England and Wales has the highest imprisonment rate in western Europe at 145 per 100,000 of the population. France has an imprisonment rate of 91 per 100,000 and Germany has a rate of 96 per 100,000.

In 1995, the average prison population was 50,962. When Labour came to government in May 1997, the prison population was 60,131. The figure now stands at around 78,000!

[boom_and_bust]

An interesting point but I'm not so sure.

I think we here in Britain are far better at generating underclasses and keeping them in their place.

Perhaps it's all to do with the seemingly deep-seated class system that supposedly doesn't exist anymore thanks to Phoney Liar.

Anyways, my point is, we've had underclasses for literally generations in this country and riots haven't happened to the extent we see in France.NDL

Hi,

I don't know if I am a little older or not but did you live through the 'winter of discontent', the inner city riots of the 80's? Have you ever been caught up in Mayday riots in central London? Even recently we have seen race riots in the Midlands/North. I think we have it bubbling under the surface, not as extreme as France but there all the same. France (country I have alot of experience of) does have a different culture in that people are quicker to protest and get active than Brits, mainly due to it's Republic Status, although the one thing you can say is that many French Business and political leaders have come from literally nowhere in society to rise to the top - even Presidents. Mitterand and Giscard d'Estaing particularly, the later being born and raised in the middle of nowhere, educated at a local village school. Now that doesn't happen here, even Blair and Brown are the usual masonic melange of Eaton-Oxbridge set. And that's the left wing party?!?

Anyhow, not really sure it is a good line to pursue or get overy interested in viz-a-viz houseprice analysis except to say, there are social consequences to the current route in the UK for sure. Also, the whole bluffer argument about a new landlord-renter society model is utter bunkump. Mass consumption economies don't work, cannot work on that basis. So that means you can revert eventually to an economic model like Argentina or Chile. Usually, western nations seem more intent to maximise growth and wealth, an economy has to develop a fairly wide disrtibution of wealth to achieve that.

Boomer

[ILikeBigBoobs]

Britain 2005 -

Directors pay increased by 18% (FT)

3000 financial City workers take home bonus's over £1,000,000 each

- minimum wage increases by 20 pence.

[Harry Sacks]

(moved to next page)

[Mushroom]

Britain 2005 -

Directors pay increased by 18% (FT)

3000 financial City workers take home bonus's over £1,000,000 each

I can remember how, when the Tories were in Government and such figures were announced, there would be howls of complaint from the Labour Party.

Often it would be a certain person currently the Deputy Prime Minister shouting loudest.

He is strangely quiet on such matters these days.

[ILikeBigBoobs]

I can remember how, when the Tories were in Government and such figures were announced, there would be howls of complaint from the Labour Party.

Often it would be a certain person currently the Deputy Prime Minister shouting loudest.

He is strangely quiet on such matters these days.

In the Fifties and onwards income started to flow more to labour (workers) than to capital (investors) but under NuLabour the pendelum is swinging back and now income is increasingly flowing to capital rather than to labour. I suppose that for the housing maket that ought to mean that there will be more investors buying property than previously and fewer workers able to afford property (and therefore becoming investors tenants). Sad, but it does seem to be what's gradually happening and NuLabours tax breaks for the wealthy can only speed up this change (and as an ex labour supporter, astound me!).

[Harry Sacks]

yes..the 'red scare' was also used to frighten the peeps (not just the establishment). A useful tool used to justify all sorts of things.

Does make you wonder about the current 'fear of terror' line being trotted about by USA/UKplc doesn't it.

Totally!

But he added: “If they carry on like this the question people will be asking us is — when are you going to do something about Iran?Can you imagine a State like that with an attitude like that having nuclear weapons?”

"Last best chance" film, produced with support from the Nuclear Threat Initiative, with additional funding from the Carnegie Corporation of New York and the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.

What I reckon,

The problem for the coalition with regard to invading Iraq was the level of public opposition. The populations of the countries involved were not directly affected by Saddam's regime. They didn't want to go to war, their governments lied about WMD's and they weren't interested for altruistic reasons.

All in all very damaging to their leaders future prospects for holding power.

So, IMO, Blair and Bush have changed their strategy with:- "when are you going to do something about Iran?"

Go to the site they're giving the film away, free.

My assertion still stands that we in the UK are far more effective at creating underclasses that in comparison with others are pretty apathetic.

NDL

Yes, It's intrinsic part of British culture, to accept, not to complain when you are in the minority. Like with housing, too many have done well from it so it outweighs the present ramifications.

And IMO it stems from the "I'm alright Jack" attitude. It stops coherence between people with a common interest. We're to reluctant to become proactive, to do something practical.

[Karen]

The world would benefit form a large, stable, educated, working, middle class.

Eliminate the extremes in wealth and poverty, not just in any given community, but globally.

[brainclamp]

A Landlord-Tenant state? How could that happen I wonder?

1997-2005:(1) Rents appear cheaper than mortgages due to tax breaks and legal changes.

Tenants renting will simply claim they are saving on the very high mortgage payments and what a bargain rents are, as houseprices are insane - even going so far as to claim landlords are subsidising them!

2006: (2) More property tax breaks to the rich, with tightening BOE credit conditions - houseprices stay well out of reach but rents start to rise. Mortgages are just as expensive in relation to rising rents - but taxes also seem to be going up.

2008: (3) Credit has long since polarised, towards investors/landlords in receipt of tax breaks, easily outbidding First time buyers. Houseprices do not drop, as rising interest rates hit, ordinary mortgagees are being repossessed, but thanks to 'kindly' renting agreements put in place by the LA to prevent homelessness and distress, they simply switch to cheaper renting instead as an investor purchases thier dwelling via the LA. Even without higher interest rates, The new ID card costs £400 for a couple and taxes are really hitting now so thier mortgage repayment had to give.

Wait a moment - we are here - a landlord tenant society - there wasn't even a general election -

'Still, renting is cheaper than buying'

'You would be a mug to buy now!.' They all tell themselves....

At that point we are all living under a population register and ID cards, facing rising taxes and rents...

[Karen]

Not that it wouldn't be nice but I'm afraid that this is an Utopian ideal that could never arise due to greed, corruption, self-interest, vested interests and good old human nature.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic Karen but this is housepricecrash.co.uk afterall!

500 years ago, no one would have believed we would be drving around in cars and flying in jet planes. I believe some day we will see this, tho I doubt I will see this.