Stealth Tax

[dog]

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/retirement/ar..._page_id=6&ct=5

He denied that the tax would become a stealth tax because the threshold above which people pay it would increase from £1.5m to £1.8m over the next five years.

I don't believe them. They have done it with stamp duty, inheritance tax and higher rate tax bands so why should this be any different? They also promised to stop charging for the Dartford crossing in 2000 after paying off the build cost.

[the end is a bit nigher]

Just another step in the overall increase in taxation without raising income tax

[right_freds_dead]

are we the most taxed population in the world ?

i think so.

you hear of euro taxes like 40% income tax ect, but so what. its the pound in your pocket that counts.

we have smaller % of income tax as a rule, but everything else is taxed almost to comical levels. if this is put into the sum i reckon overall we must be the most taxed individuals in the world. income tax, poll tax, fuel tax, fuel tax, tobacco, alcohol, - you name it. its taxed.

and to make things worse. were priced out too....

[zorn]

are we the most taxed population in the world ?

Far from it, very far from it indeed. The most recent stats from the OECD refer to 2003, and they show an OECD average taxation level of 36.3% of GDP. The UK was a little below the average, at 35.3%, and had the second-lowest in the EU, beaten only by Ireland. It has increased a little over the past couple of years, but there are no detailed stats available yet, and it's certainly nothing like a big enough increase to compare with the genuinely high-tax countries like Sweden.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/1/33826979.pdf

If you would like to disagree, then kindly refer to some alternative figures that you like better, and don't resort to the kind of ad hominem tactics going on in another thread.

[right_freds_dead]

Far from it, very far from it indeed. The most recent stats from the OECD refer to 2003, and they show an OECD average taxation level of 36.3% of GDP. The UK was a little below the average, at 35.3%, and had the second-lowest in the EU, beaten only by Ireland. It has increased a little over the past couple of years, but there are no detailed stats available yet, and it's certainly nothing like a big enough increase to compare with the genuinely high-tax countries like Sweden.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/1/33826979.pdf

If you would like to disagree, then kindly refer to some alternative figures that you like better, and don't resort to the kind of ad hominem tactics going on in another thread.

this ishow the uk government fools people like you who think they are smart with these figures.

this is the trap. low income taxes. on paper for you to post once suckered.

then over tax all the purchases made from that remaining income - taxing it twice.

they dont have poll tax or private dentists in sweden mr tax smarty pants.

[dog]

are we the most taxed population in the world ?

i think so.

you hear of euro taxes like 40% income tax ect, but so what. its the pound in your pocket that counts.

we have smaller % of income tax as a rule, but everything else is taxed almost to comical levels. if this is put into the sum i reckon overall we must be the most taxed individuals in the world. income tax, poll tax, fuel tax, fuel tax, tobacco, alcohol, - you name it. its taxed.

and to make things worse. were priced out too....

I agree with this. The government are also taking money and evading their responsibilities in ever more imaginative ways. Try getting an NHS dentist. Perscriptions for many drugs are more expensive than the free market ones. Hospital parking costs £5 a visit for some hospitals. Pay and display car parks have filled the towns and are now creeping out into the countryside. Parking and speeding fines have become a new form of taxation. Toll roads are creeping in everywhere. Swathes of police stations have closed and non emergency police visits can take up to two days. In schools, class sizes are growing and parents have to buy more and more of the books.

[right_freds_dead]

im still waiting for zorns comeback........

[zorn]

this ishow the uk government fools people like you who think they are smart with these figures.

this is the trap. low income taxes. on paper for you to post once suckered.

then over tax all the purchases made from that remaining income - taxing it twice.

they dont have poll tax or private dentists in sweden mr tax smarty pants.

Those figures don't relate to income tax alone; they're taxation from all sources. Do you actually have any figures of any kind to back up your argument, or does it just consist of screaming "I'm right, I'm right, I'M RIGHT" until you're blue in the face?

Oh, and in case it's actually relevant, here's an article about dentistry in Sweden, which most certainly does have private dentists: http://www.tandlakarforbundet.se/eng/jobb/...20sweden_03.pdf

Try to actually have a few facts before you post, and perhaps check the accuracy of the ones you do come up with. How long does it take you to Google for "sweden private dentists"? It took me about ten seconds.

[right_freds_dead]

Those figures don't relate to income tax alone; they're taxation from all sources. Do you actually have any figures of any kind to back up your argument, or does it just consist of screaming "I'm right, I'm right, I'M RIGHT" until you're blue in the face?

Oh, and in case it's actually relevant, here's an article about dentistry in Sweden, which most certainly does have private dentists: http://www.tandlakarforbundet.se/eng/jobb/...20sweden_03.pdf

Try to actually have a few facts before you post, and perhaps check the accuracy of the ones you do come up with. How long does it take you to Google for "sweden private dentists"? It took me about ten seconds.

i dont grab figures from the net like you do. who are these people ? are they vested ? you dont know.

experience is better. its real. its the pound in your pocket.

earn one. then take that pound home.

its now 75p after income tax.

buy a litre of fuel with it.

its now 15p

where did 85p of that pound earned go ?

TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAX

earn another. then take that pound home.

its now 75p after income tax.

buy a chinese meal with it.

its now 61p after VAT.

where did it go ?

VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT

earn another. then take that pound home.

its now 75p after income tax.

that goes towards your monthly poll tax

where did it go ?

TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAX

earn another. then take that pound home.

its now 75p after income tax.

buy a record with it.

its now 61p after VAT.

where did it go ?

VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT

earn another. then take that pound home.

its now 75p after income tax.

buy a laminated floor with it.

its now 61p after VAT.

where did it go ?

VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT VAT

remember zorn - to add 17.5% to your fancy income tax levels for what really is street tax. then add poll tax and all other sundries such as dentists and council housing and ask.

how much of a pound goes to tax.

and how much if a swedish groat goes to tax.

got any links on that one ?

[zorn]

how much of a pound goes to tax.

35.3p

and how much if a swedish groat goes to tax.

50.8 ore

got any links on that one ?

Yes, the OECD one I cited earlier. Stop talking about how it feels to you -- that's utterly irrelevant to how much you're really taxed. Start citing some macroeconomic statistics that support your argument, or give up and admit that you have not the first clue what you're talking about.

Edited November 6, 2005 by zorn

[CrashCrash]

Far from it, very far from it indeed. The most recent stats from the OECD refer to 2003, and they show an OECD average taxation level of 36.3% of GDP. The UK was a little below the average, at 35.3%, and had the second-lowest in the EU, beaten only by Ireland. It has increased a little over the past couple of years, but there are no detailed stats available yet, and it's certainly nothing like a big enough increase to compare with the genuinely high-tax countries like Sweden.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/1/33826979.pdf

If you would like to disagree, then kindly refer to some alternative figures that you like better, and don't resort to the kind of ad hominem tactics going on in another thread.

from the pdf, I found this

a) The tax revenues have been reduced by the amount of the capital transfer. The capital transfer has been allocated between tax headings in proportion to the reported tax revenues.

do you have figures for that ?

[The Masked Tulip]

I had an interesting conversation with a neighbour today - a teacher - in a profession I don't have much sympathy for but... She surprised me by saying how over-taxed she felt and that she was paying taxes and getting nothing in return. She commented how she took 11 days sick this year and had to go through a process of 'interviews' by the local education authority to justify her illness... She also commented that she is being sent 'animals to teach' these days and that teachers now have so much paperwork that there is no joy in doing the job. Said she is thinking of moving to the US.

I thought it was interesting to get a POV of someone 'in the street'. Oh, she thinks HPs are about to fall "quite a bit.."

[zorn]

from the pdf, I found this

a) The tax revenues have been reduced by the amount of the capital transfer. The capital transfer has been allocated between tax headings in proportion to the reported tax revenues.

Look at the first page. The "capital transfer" they're talking about is uncollected taxes, i.e. taxes that are not paid. So it's irrelevant to the question of how much is paid, and they're correct to deduct it.

[aclwalker]

People think I'm crazy when I say "We are all 40% tax payers.". OK, it may be 35.6% or whatever zorn's quotes said but it illustrates the point, the point being that a lot of people are totally unaware of how much they are 'taxed', in the widest possible sense (e.g. including NI which is just another tax).

The average person with average wage, average drinking and smoking habits, driving average miles a year, paying average council tax, etc., is probably taxed not far from the 40% level.

I guess this would be easier to accept if services were better, it wasn't wasted by bomber Blair on his latest ego trip war, or we felt our old people were secure, blah blah blah.

[messychopper]

'Brown's new tax on the dead' - sums it up a treat IMO.

He wont stop till he's taken it all.

i dont grab figures from the net like you do. who are these people ? are they vested ? you dont know.

experience is better. its real. its the pound in your pocket.

earn one. then take that pound home.

its now 75p after income tax.

buy a litre of fuel with it.

its now 15p

where did 85p of that pound earned go ?

TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAXTAX TAX TAX

What about if your a 40% tax payer? perhaps it doesn't matter cos you've already jumped ship for brighter shores

[New Darker Law]

A few years ago I was visited by a Finnish friend (they have a relatively high level of tax similar to the Swedes).

She commented that we seem to get nothing for our tax. Looking around her she saw unmaintained public buildings. Litter in the streets. Big Issue sellers and beggars (this is not me having a swipe, they simply don't exist in Finland). Potholes in the roads. Etc etc.

She couldn't understand where our tax money was going.

I had no answer.

NDL

[Not a moderator]

I don't get it... about 30% of my income goes on income tax & NI, then my employer has to pay a percentage NI (basically money that should be mine), then 17 1/2% of what's left over goes on VAT, not to mention fuel duty and all the other little extra taxes.

This adds up to way over 50% for little over the average wage. So in order for the 'average tax' to be 35.3% there must be plenty of people making it expensive for the likes of me by not paying their share :angry:

[Limpet]

A few years ago I was visited by a Finnish friend (they have a relatively high level of tax similar to the Swedes).

She commented that we seem to get nothing for our tax. Looking around her she saw unmaintained public buildings. Litter in the streets. Big Issue sellers and beggars (this is not me having a swipe, they simply don't exist in Finland). Potholes in the roads. Etc etc.

She couldn't understand where our tax money was going.

I had no answer.

NDL

This is exactly the point, the amount of tax is less important than how it is used

large amounts are just wasted

The Millenium tent

The Channel Tunnel

£1/2 Billion for a ticket office in London but Leeds can`t have a tram system

Very nearly the highest petrol taxes in the OECD, but crappy congested roads full of potholes and sleeping policemen

Thousands of executive non-jobs in the public sector , when we really need more street cleaners , health service workers etc

:angry: :angry:

[teddyboy]

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/retirement/ar..._page_id=6&ct=5

I don't believe them. They have done it with stamp duty, inheritance tax and higher rate tax bands so why should this be any different? They also promised to stop charging for the Dartford crossing in 2000 after paying off the build cost.

Mersey Tunnels was supposed to have been paid off before the year 2000 and then it would become F.O.C. Instead they put up some 30mph signs (and then took them down), and make an emergency walkway (which should have been there in the first place) and put the prices up. Must make £250,000 a day i.m.h.o.

Rip Off!

[zorn]

I don't get it... about 30% of my income goes on income tax & NI, then my employer has to pay a percentage NI (basically money that should be mine), then 17 1/2% of what's left over goes on VAT, not to mention fuel duty and all the other little extra taxes.

This adds up to way over 50% for little over the average wage. So in order for the 'average tax' to be 35.3% there must be plenty of people making it expensive for the likes of me by not paying their share :angry:

If 30% of your income goes on tax and NI, you must be a higher-rate taxpayer, so you should expect to pay a little more. Don't forget that a large proportion of expenditure goes on things that are zero-rated or only 5%-rated for VAT -- food, public transport, insurance, gas, electricity, books, newspapers, etc. -- you don't pay anything like 17.5% of your total expenditure.

[OnlyMe]

Zorn,

Tax freedom day - takes care of the whole lot, this is the average tax paid.

http://www.adamsmith.org/tax/

For anybody on a salary commensurate with purchasing from scratch in the current house price environment is lilkely to see at least 50% of their overall pay go in tax.

[Not a moderator]

If 30% of your income goes on tax and NI, you must be a higher-rate taxpayer, so you should expect to pay a little more. Don't forget that a large proportion of expenditure goes on things that are zero-rated or only 5%-rated for VAT -- food, public transport, insurance, gas, electricity, books, newspapers, etc. -- you don't pay anything like 17.5% of your total expenditure.

Basic rate tax is 22% of anything over about £94 (per week)

NI is 11% of anything over £94

Employers NI is 12.3% of anything over £94

I don't use public transport (not practical where I live) and all the other items you mention come to about £60 a week of my expenses. So let's be generous & say just 12% of what's left over will go on VAT

Still way over 50% :angry:

I forgot to mention... there's no VAT on council tax - what lovely people

Edited November 6, 2005 by Not a moderator

[CrashCrash]

Zorn,

Tax freedom day - takes care of the whole lot, this is the average tax paid.

http://www.adamsmith.org/tax/

For anybody on a salary commensurate with purchasing from scratch in the current house price environment is lilkely to see at least 50% of their overall pay go in tax.

Brilliant post, Tax freedom day

Ever since NuLab in the gov its going from 22nd May to 4th June

[dog]

This is exactly the point, the amount of tax is less important than how it is used

large amounts are just wasted

The Millenium tent

The Channel Tunnel

£1/2 Billion for a ticket office in London but Leeds can`t have a tram system

Very nearly the highest petrol taxes in the OECD, but crappy congested roads full of potholes and sleeping policemen

Thousands of executive non-jobs in the public sector , when we really need more street cleaners , health service workers etc

:angry: :angry:

And there we have it! Big taxes and nothing to show for it. Vanishing pensions, vanishing police, vanishing teachers and trains that cost more than taxis.

[zorn]

Basic rate tax is 22% of anything over about £94 (per week)

NI is 11% of anything over £94

Employers NI is 12.3% of anything over £94

I don't use public transport (not practical where I live) and all the other items you mention come to about £60 a week of my expenses. So let's be generous & say just 12% of what's left over will go on VAT

Still way over 50% :angry:

I forgot to mention... there's no VAT on council tax - what lovely people

Even if your earnings are right up against the NI ceiling, you can't pay more than 28% in income tax and NI. You've forgotten the 10% tax band on your first £2000 of taxable income, for one thing.