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British Finally Tired Of Giving Africa Money


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Yeah, you could make yourself king of the world and decide who lives and who dies.

you not think it is a good idea, do you like the fact that they produce kids and watch them starve? personally i would think this would have to be the first thing they stopped.

i only had one child because i knew i could not afford to have more.

and yes king of the world sounds great. i would star with a HPC :)

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Slavery was never agood thing for Africa and Africans did take part but that doesn't excuse the role of the Europeans in the mass movements of people for exploitation and brutality on a scale I hope we never see again.
The volume of Slaves moves by the "white slave traders" was minuscule considering the total volume of slaves traded in Africa at the time.

When you consider the slave power that would have been required to build, say, the pyramids, the requirement for just one dwarf the entire "white-run" slave trade.

Once salvery was out of fashion due to the reduced value of goods including sugar and cotton, the Europeans turned to the African continent for expliotation.
Actually slavery came to an end because it was uneconomic. The owners were better off freeing the slaves, then hiring them back as workers and charging them rent, as slaves the owners were required to house, cloth and feed and medicate them, even when they were unfit to work.

Slaves too old or ill to work could no be just cast-out - the slave owner was still liable for their actions were they to steal, or cause harm to someone or their property, in the same way a farmer was responsible for ensuring their livestock don't run riot.

The slave trade came to a natural conclusion when there were too many older slaves unfit for the hard manual labour for which they were purchased. It wasn't unlike our situation, where a demographic time-bomb made it a financial failure.

One of the biggest ironies (true story) was that when the anti-slavery campaigners came to the UK and tried to garner support amongst the lower classes, they caused a riot, because the people whose support they were trying to obtain realised the slaves HAD A BETTER DEAL THAN THEY DID.

The saddest part is that the slaves sold to white slave-traders and shipped abroad almost certainly had a better life than the slaves who remained in Africa, who would simply have been worked to death by owners who not only had a fresh supply "on tap", but were also often tribal enemies of the slaves and would have had no pity for them at all.

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i only had one child because i knew i could not afford to have more.

You did that in the context of being a man required to support your children financially (whether through moral obligation or force of law) and in a country with easily available healthcare, contraception and a welfare state to look after you in your old age should your children choose not to bother.

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How can anyone be sure the money goes to those in Africa without and not those in Africa with plenty....the best way to give to Africa is visit yourself to see with your own eyes who in fact is benefiting from all good intentions......as much as 90p in the pound maybe. ;)

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How can anyone be sure the money goes to those in Africa without and not those in Africa with plenty....the best way to give to Africa is visit yourself to see with your own eyes who in fact is benefiting from all good intentions......as much as 90p in the pound maybe. ;)

That sounds like hard work, couldn't I just make ham sandwiches and post them in a Jiffy bag?

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That BBC programme about the hotel Claridges showed lots of African 'leaders' staying there during the Olympics.

yep, I saw that - a dozen rooms a time for their 'entourage' of security and errr shopping advisors. unbelievable waste and profliagcy when you think how much food, shoes, school books, pens, medicine etc etc you could have bought with the money spent on their lovely shopping trips to Claridges. Most of the dictators seemed like regulars there too.

Nice to see our Royals enjoying the hospitality there too - despite having how many palaces / mansions within a few miles?? lol. I'm sure her Majesty could have made up a spare room in Buckingham Palace for her son to stay in....no wonder he couldn't get through the door fast enough!

Disgusting, excessive and totally corrupt.

There is plenty of money in the world to feed everyone and end poverty, it's just that rich elite don't want to share it - they want it ALL for themselves.

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Went to zimbabwe earlier in the year, which is topical as lots of the adverts on charity adverts are about zim at the moment

Price of stuff in zimbabwe is insane, 14 USD for a chicken, 4 sausages for 8 USD. 45USD will get you about 300mb of mobile data, or 3 hours of phone calls.

Everyone is working, there is a huge black economy, lots of 'entreprenures' who will do anything

Lots of schemes to make a quick buck, huge corruption people looking for hard cash.

  • if you have 10,000 USD you can pay someone in the gov they will give you a farm full of chickens to manage with an income of 3,000->6000 USD a month (there lack of people who can or want to manage other people)
  • Mining, pay the right person 40k and you can buy a mine and equiptment

The police have just purchased some very nice new BMW police cars.

Everyone drives around in 4x4s, pollution, insane potholes, traffic jams and some big dual carrageway road builing programmes underway

Property prices in harare are stupidly expensive, rent is also very expensive. 700->2000 USD a month to rent a 2 bed house in a compound in the city. It would cost 140,000->300,000 USD to buy the same house

There is a massive wealth divide, there are some VERY VERY wealthy people, My guess would be 20% of the population who are doing 'ok' (which in zim is a salary of 3500 USD a month ('tax free' as everyone avoid paying as much tax as possible)), the rest struggle. I would guess the bottom 50% live on less than 5 USD a day.

Yes there is poverty, but the top 10% in zim appear to be ALOT richer than the top 10% in the uk. We went to a rural area where my wfe's ancestors comes from and the poverty was insane, you cannot describe the poverty in the countryside but giving a couple of pounds isn't going to resolve that it may make people poorer as the price of goods and services are driven up by corruption via the elite, middle classes and NGO workers who are willing to pay 20,000+ USD to send there kids to a good private Zimbabwean school.

http://socksandbuses...-1244-pm-photo/

img_9949.jpg

Edited by AteMoose
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but giving a couple of pounds isn't going to resolve that it

I disagree, 2 pounds is more than enough.

Of C4.

On the front of a tomahawk missile.

Into the next national ZanuPF conference where everybody who is anybody in the party has to attend.

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According to our media Zimbabwe has been on its last legs for a decade now.. no electricity, barely enough food, no clean water.

Yet your story paints a completely different(and believable) picture of how it really is.

Don't get me wrong there are rolling blackouts and water is turned off every few days. My wifes grandparents store water in jars for days at a time... but the wealthier have there own boreholes and generators. Hopefully the building of a new $3 billion dollar power station will help

http://www.esi-africa.com/node/14090

latest news from zimbabwe

http://harare24.com/...s-zk-14691.html

CONSTRUCTION of West Properties' US$100 million Mall of Zimbabwe in the plush Borrowdale suburb of Harare has received the green light from the Environmental Management Agency (EMA), the property firm has confirmed.

2i28xas.jpg

This new mall is being built opposite harares current posh mall "Sam Levy's Village" (which is a bit like one of those village malls you find in the uk)

http://en.wikipedia....lls_in_Zimbabwe

A rather nice 4 bed in borrowdale

http://www.remax.co....ence/300609907/

bill gates has been holidaying in zim this month, flew in on a private jet for a week and paid $5785 per night

http://www.sundaymai...30#.UN3mqG-6fu8

Footnote: The eremites jet we flew into harare wouldn't refuel in harare, we stopped at lusaka, Zambia to refuel on the way in and way home. I assume this is because of corruption, Its cant be worth the risk of refuelling in Zim

Edited by AteMoose
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The money that has been donated over the years has obviously been stolen or wasted. There is no reason any where in the world in this day and age should not have clean drinking water.

It's pretty damn hilarious you posting on stolen and wasted monies in Africa, when one of the top few reasons africa remains undeveloped is due to endemic tax evasion and avoidance. You'll note this is also a major contributor to africa's continuing endemic corruption (which is certainly the number one reason africa is undeveloped), as the companies and individuals involved in these activities bribe their way to making sure they can continue their activities.

The sums avoided/evaded have been estimated to be 10x the worlds global aid budgets. And even more hilariously the number one way (approx 60%) they do this is through transfer miss-pricing of exported commodities. But as you've said a number of times in other threads there's absolutely nothing wrong with transfer miss-pricing, so it's all ok......

Glencore in Switzerland mines and exports significant quantities of copper (a nation that has basically no mine-able copper deposits).....and Glencore in zambia (the nation that is 6th in the world in copper deposits) makes a loss, who knew, eh?

Edited by alexw
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They all talk about it but no-one addresses the root cause. Lack of education leads to breeding like rabbits and therefore the problem persists or gets worse. No one in their right mind would have a large family if they knew it would starve. Yet it happens. Purely because they had to have multiple children in the assumption more than half would die of disease, injury or starvation.

Until they turn off the tap then the problems will continue. And they have to help themselves, and when I say 'they' I mean the leaders who never starve, or suffer themselves.

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They all talk about it but no-one addresses the root cause. Lack of education leads to breeding like rabbits and therefore the problem persists or gets worse. No one in their right mind would have a large family if they knew it would starve. Yet it happens. Purely because they had to have multiple children in the assumption more than half would die of disease, injury or starvation.

Until they turn off the tap then the problems will continue. And they have to help themselves, and when I say 'they' I mean the leaders who never starve, or suffer themselves.

There is logic in Africa for having large families. In Africa (especially in rural areas) children are expected to look after (pay) for there parents in there old age. People tend to have large families for pension reasons, the more kids make it through school age the more you are sorted. They are not stupid they are doing it for logical reasons. If you have one (or perhaps two) children that gets a job in the city your sorted in your old age as you wont need to work. Education can help but stong family traditions are hard to break.

Edited by AteMoose
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Lots of schemes to make a quick buck, huge corruption people looking for hard cash.

  • if you have 10,000 USD you can pay someone in the gov they will give you a farm full of chickens to manage with an income of 3,000->6000 USD a month (there lack of people who can or want to manage other people)
  • Mining, pay the right person 40k and you can buy a mine and equiptment

I'd guess the problem is holding onto it.

Your mine might make you $15,000 - $20,000 a month but I'd guess that 75%+ of that goes straight back out in bribes or tributes of some sort. Then after a couple of years people will get shuffled around, you'll fall out of favour, the mine will get confiscated and someone else will buy it for $40,000.

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yep, I saw that - a dozen rooms a time for their 'entourage' of security and errr shopping advisors. unbelievable waste and profliagcy when you think how much food, shoes, school books, pens, medicine etc etc you could have bought with the money spent on their lovely shopping trips to Claridges. Most of the dictators seemed like regulars there too.

Nice to see our Royals enjoying the hospitality there too - despite having how many palaces / mansions within a few miles?? lol. I'm sure her Majesty could have made up a spare room in Buckingham Palace for her son to stay in....no wonder he couldn't get through the door fast enough!

Disgusting, excessive and totally corrupt.

There is plenty of money in the world to feed everyone and end poverty, it's just that rich elite don't want to share it - they want it ALL for themselves.

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Funny how there's always a shortage of housing, but never any difficulty getting hold of stately homes.

(some people have guns, or stately homes. Others struggle to get the basics)

Famine and War made it to the cut for the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse but somehow BTL never got in the frame.

Maybe the Book of Revelation needs updating for HPC

and out of the mouth of the beast came forth Liar Loans
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Famine and War made it to the cut for the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse but somehow BTL never got in the frame.

Maybe the Book of Revelation needs updating for HPC

Maybe Debt could be the 5th Horseman. Kind of like that Pete Best guy being the 5th Beatle.

Edited by TheBlueCat
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My mum has been volunteering as a teacher in Tanzania for the last 18 months, she has 6 months to go. Tanzania is in parts a very beautiful country, quite fertile, with a reasonable supply of natural resources. It's also one of the poorest countries in Africa as I understand it. I went out to visit her with my uncle (her brother) in June.

From what she has said, and from what I saw when I was out there, the problem is basically a combination of massive corruption / troughing by politicians and officials, incredibly inefficient beaurocracy, and a deeply conservative (small c) mindset amongst much of the population that can barely even contemplate change, let alone embrace it. She has been working at a secondary school which the school she taught at in London (also my old school) had forged links with thanks to some well meaning other teachers/staff. My old school, while operating as a fairly standard minor public school, is still proud of its Christian missionary heritage, and so had been sending out a party of sixth formers every year to volunteer for a couple of weeks, and had obviously been providing funding. The Tanzanian Headmaster is a good, honest, and well meaning man, and over the past few years, and especially with my mum there channeling funding, they've achieved a great deal- built a whole new classroom block, electrified some of the classrooms, equipped a library with books and some computers etc. All this, as I understand it, has been achieved with what we could consider to be fairly trivial sums of money- in the low tens of thousands of pounds, or equivalent to one UK teacher's yearly wages (though it is just possible that I am getting the wrong end of the stick). Almost none of the funding has come from the Tanzanian authorities. But that didn't stop the local Education Authority (or The Municipal, as they're apparently referred to) deciding that they'd like to take the credit, and so a few months ago the kids had to stop lessons for a morning to tidy up the rough track leading to the school from the equally rough access road (which was being dug up to no apparent end when we visited, so much so that we had to keep guessing which way to the school would actually be passable). This was so that the posh cars of the officials could drive there without undercarriage damge for a photo op.

My mum asked the Head why he didn't just tell them to stick it- his reply was that that would be extremely damaging for his career- a posting to another school at the **** end of nowhere would be his reward! :angry:

My mum, I should add, has never actually got a residency permit- she just comes home every three months and then returns on a new 3 month visitor visa. This is because a volunteer visa apparently costs something like 600 dollars. My mum is spending her own money on funding her own living expenses there, to work for nothing for the good of Tanzanian kids, and they expect her to pay 600 dollars for the privilege, which she rightly refuses to do on principle. Lucky, I suppose, that their beaurocracy is so useless, as they've never come even

remotely close to sending any immigration officials after her.

All this pales into insignificance compared to what I think is the real stupidity of the situation- which is that, by law, all secondary education in Tanzania must be conducted in English. To a first approximation, none of the kids turn up at the school able to speak English. Business in the Tanzanian Parliament (outside which, BTW, there are rows and rows of Range Rovers and V8 Land Cruisers) is conducted in Swahili, as is most business (though there are lots of tribal languages spoken everywhere). This makes most of the teaching a waste of time, as all but the brightest kids simply don't understand what is being said most of the time.

I came away from the visit saddened, really, at the waste of potential. I met a lot of (variously) kind, friendly, ambitious, and hardworking people, stymied and badly let down by their country's leadership.

I'm not done giving money to Africa by a long chalk. I'm planning on becoming a London cab driver in the next couple of years, which ought to see me comfortably off at least. My wife doesn't want kids, so I'll have money that I'll be looking to improve the world with. But I wouldn't just blindly donate it ever again. I plan on going over and supervising the spending of it myself, having seen what my mum and my school have achieved with that model.

Edited by Rave
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My mum has been volunteering as a teacher in Tanzania for the last 18 months, she has 6 months to go. Tanzania is in parts a very beautiful country, quite fertile, with a reasonable supply of natural resources. It's also one of the poorest countries in Africa as I understand it. I went out to visit her with my uncle (her brother) in June.

From what she has said, and from what I saw when I was out there, the problem is basically a combination of massive corruption / troughing by politicians and officials, incredibly inefficient beaurocracy, and a deeply conservative (small c) mindset amongst much of the population that can barely even contemplate change, let alone embrace it. She has been working at a secondary school which the school she taught at in London (also my old school) had forged links with thanks to some well meaning other teachers/staff. My old school, while operating as a fairly standard minor public school, is still proud of its Christian missionary heritage, and so had been sending out a party of sixth formers every year to volunteer for a couple of weeks, and had obviously been providing funding. The Tanzanian Headmaster is a good, honest, and well meaning man, and over the past few years, and especially with my mum there channeling funding, they've achieved a great deal- built a whole new classroom block, electrified some of the classrooms, equipped a library with books and some computers etc. All this, as I understand it, has been achieved with what we could consider to be fairly trivial sums of money- in the low tens of thousands of pounds, or equivalent to one UK teacher's yearly wages (though it is just possible that I am getting the wrong end of the stick). Almost none of the funding has come from the Tanzanian authorities. But that didn't stop the local Education Authority (or The Municipal, as they're apparently referred to) deciding that they'd like to take the credit, and so a few months ago the kids had to stop lessons for a morning to tidy up the rough track leading to the school from the equally rough access road (which was being dug up to no apparent end when we visited, so much so that we had to keep guessing which way to the school would actually be passable). This was so that the posh cars of the officials could drive there without undercarriage damge for a photo op.

My mum asked the Head why he didn't just tell them to stick it- his reply was that that would be extremely damaging for his career- a posting to another school at the **** end of nowhere would be his reward! :angry:

My mum, I should add, has never actually got a residency permit- she just comes home every three months and then returns on a new 3 month visitor visa. This is because a volunteer visa apparently costs something like 600 dollars. My mum is spending her own money on funding her own living expenses there, to work for nothing for the good of Tanzanian kids, and they expect her to pay 600 dollars for the privilege, which she rightly refuses to do on principle. Lucky, I suppose, that their beaurocracy is so useless, as they've never come even

remotely close to sending any immigration officials after her.

All this pales into insignificance compared to what I think is the real stupidity of the situation- which is that, by law, all secondary education in Tanzania must be conducted in English. To a first approximation, none of the kids turn up at the school able to speak English. Business in the Tanzanian Parliament (outside which, BTW, there are rows and rows of Range Rovers and V8 Land Cruisers) is conducted in Swahili, as is most business (though there are lots of tribal languages spoken everywhere). This makes most of the teaching a waste of time, as all but the brightest kids simply don't understand what is being said most of the time.

I came away from the visit saddened, really, at the waste of potential. I met a lot of (variously) kind, friendly, ambitious, and hardworking people, stymied and badly let down by their country's leadership.

I'm not done giving money to Africa by a long chalk. I'm planning on becoming a London cab driver in the next couple of years, which ought to see me comfortably off at least. My wife doesn't want kids, so I'll have money that I'll be looking to improve the world with. But I wouldn't just blindly donate it ever again. I plan on going over and supervising the spending of it myself, having seen what my mum and my school have achieved with that model.

A very interesting anecdotal, thanks for posting.

Made me think of a couple of things:

  • No matter how cr4p the politicians/BBC are in this country it could be a whole lot worse.

  • Why immigrants come to this country when they could stay put and concentrate on improving the lot of their own country, must be the sheer hopelessness on the situation back home?

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[*]Why immigrants come to this country when they could stay put and concentrate on improving the lot of their own country, must be the sheer hopelessness on the situation back home?

Its also greed.

I went to school in Africa and probably 90% of the locals I went to school with are now in America or the EU. Why? Money. Selfishness.

The educated elite who arent troughing it in government have all sodded off to greener pastures rather than stay and help their country.

Which raises the question, why should we continue to send people like Rave's mother to Africa to do the jobs the Africans are too greedy and selfish to do themselves?

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I went to school in Africa and probably 90% of the locals I went to school with are now in America or the EU. Why? Money. Selfishness.

The educated elite who arent troughing it in government have all sodded off to greener pastures rather than stay and help their country.

Why would they? If they really want to be sucessful, they can't do it at home. All the best jobs are taken and it's dead-mans-boots now.

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