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Classixuk's Property Challenge...

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Following on from a post on SP, I'd like to invite ALL HPCers to take part in my Property Challenge...

In this challenge you are an applicant of a very good job as Office Manager at Chiron Medical (the guys who make the flu vaccines), and here is your reply letter after attending the fianl interview...

Dear Mr/s HPCer,

Thankyou for working your way up the ladder in your career. We are pleased after our recent interview with you to offer you the position of Office Manager at Chiron Medical in Liverpool. Your experience of 10 years at our rivals Glaxo across the road should serve you well. We have looked at the average salary of an Office manager in Liverpool using www.payfinder.com and it is £21,639 before tax.

Your net take home should amount to around £16,200 which is £311 per week or £1347 per month.

After your council tax, insurance, food, clothing, petrol and other essentials we calculate that you should have approx £768 per month left to spend on housing. At today's historically low interest rates you should really consider purchasing a property rather than renting.

We do require that any property you purchase is actually paid off each month (i.e. not interest only) just like the generations before you have done. You should also consider that at some point in the next 3 years BoE interest rates may go as high as 6.5%.

We have managed to find you an introductory 2 year fixed deal at 5% on a mortgage of £112,500. Your monthly repayments will work out at £750.

Even though your position of office manager is not the "average job", you will find that you will not be able to afford even the "average" home in the North West which is currently £146,045.

You will need to set your sites much lower. Can you show us 3 properties that you would deem suitable for an Office Manager to have as their first home on the monthly payments of £750 per month (mortgage of £112,500) you can afford?

Perhaps you may also wish to explore the type of property you can rent for those monthly payments of £750 too?

Good luck, and welcome to the company."

Go on...show me the level of property an Office Manager at Chiron Medical has to accept in the North West nowadays if he wants to purchase his property!

Take a look on Rightmove and post your links back here...remember, as Office manager you can get a mortgage of just £112,500. If you find something that looks like a deal, check the area it's in with www.upmystreet.com before you post the result (or buy!!).

The challenge...Can anyone on HPC find a SUITABLE property for a married Office Manager aged 35 with twins of 6 months? His mortgage agreed in principal is £112,500 repayment.

I'm looking forward to the results...

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Hello Classixuk

Bill Bryson summed up Liverpool for me in 'Notes from a Small Island' when he commented they were having a litter festival the day he visited :blink:

Anyway I should be in bed not doing this but blame Ozzmozis on the music off topic thread I have stayed up playing my old Rush albums. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be...

I found this. Not knowing the wet and miserable side of the Pennines (God put them big hills there for a reason) this could be a rubbish area so apologies if it is.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-833...pa_n=1&tr_t=buy

www.houseprices.co.uk say semi's going for £86,500 in 2002 but quite a bit of variation. No4 went for £80k last October (04) but another No26 sold for £180k in March this year.

Offer 10% below with no chain and mortgage agreed. They are in no chain as well - sellling up to go abroad? distress sale? worth a call to find out.

I assume this is hypothetical and you are safely renting? I think you will get another 10% off this time next year.

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PMSL! I knew this would be good.

Prenton's a poor (i.e. crap) area, an office manager wouldn't want to live there at that price. I'd tell you more, but my omlette's burning! ;) Nice try though, and love the humour. Laughed all the way through reading.

Ok, the omlette's officially burned. Anymore golden eggs?

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Guest Bart of Darkness

Bit over budget but this looks OK (I suppose there could be a £7,000 deposit to be had)

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-451...pa_n=4&tr_t=buy

Burgulary and car theft at twice national average, so maybe we'll skip this one!

Sticking stricly within budget:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-571...a_n=77&tr_t=buy

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-917...a_n=77&tr_t=buy

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-490...a_n=78&tr_t=buy

All with three bedrooms but again, not sure whether these are areas you'd want to live in. Up My Street seems to give the same crime figures for each postcode (are the figures citywide?)

A detached house for £112,500?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-905...a_n=78&tr_t=buy

OK, what's wrong with the area then? :)

God put them big hills there for a reason

Amen brother!

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Guest Bart of Darkness
Nothing if you carry an oozie, like wearing kevlar vests and have two demented Rottweilers as companions.

:lol:

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Even though your position of office manager is not the "average job", you will find that you will not be able to afford even the "average" home in the North West which is currently £146,045.

Correct, it's not the average job. It's below average. Average male full-time earnings in Liverpool are around £23,000 (£22,077 from the 2004 AHSE, then add around 5% for wage inflation since mid 2004). Don't be misled by the fancy job title -- "Office Manager" means "dogsbody", and is paid accordingly.

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Guest Bart of Darkness
average male full-time earnings in Liverpool are around £23,000 (£22,077 from the 2004 AHSE, then add around 5% for wage inflation since mid 2004).

Is that median or mean?

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Is that median or mean?

Mean. The word "average" unqualified generally indicates the mean. So when the original poster said it was an above average job, he presumably meant above the mean, not the median,

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Guest Alright Jack

Following on from a post on SP, I'd like to invite ALL HPCers to take part in my Property Challenge...

In this challenge you are an applicant of a very good job as Office Manager at Chiron Medical (the guys who make the flu vaccines), and here is your reply letter after attending the fianl interview...

Dear Mr/s HPCer,

Thankyou for working your way up the ladder in your career. We are pleased after our recent interview with you to offer you the position of Office Manager at Chiron Medical in Liverpool. Your experience of 10 years at our rivals Glaxo across the road should serve you well. We have looked at the average salary of an Office manager in Liverpool using www.payfinder.com and it is £21,639 before tax.

Your net take home should amount to around £16,200 which is £311 per week or £1347 per month.

After your council tax, insurance, food, clothing, petrol and other essentials we calculate that you should have approx £768 per month left to spend on housing. At today's historically low interest rates you should really consider purchasing a property rather than renting.

We do require that any property you purchase is actually paid off each month (i.e. not interest only) just like the generations before you have done. You should also consider that at some point in the next 3 years BoE interest rates may go as high as 6.5%.

We have managed to find you an introductory 2 year fixed deal at 5% on a mortgage of £112,500. Your monthly repayments will work out at £750.

Even though your position of office manager is not the "average job", you will find that you will not be able to afford even the "average" home in the North West which is currently £146,045.

You will need to set your sites much lower. Can you show us 3 properties that you would deem suitable for an Office Manager to have as their first home on the monthly payments of £750 per month (mortgage of £112,500) you can afford?

Perhaps you may also wish to explore the type of property you can rent for those monthly payments of £750 too?

Good luck, and welcome to the company."

Go on...show me the level of property an Office Manager at Chiron Medical has to accept in the North West nowadays if he wants to purchase his property!

Take a look on Rightmove and post your links back here...remember, as Office manager you can get a mortgage of just £112,500. If you find something that looks like a deal, check the area it's in with www.upmystreet.com before you post the result (or buy!!).

The challenge...Can anyone on HPC find a SUITABLE property for a married Office Manager aged 35 with twins of 6 months? His mortgage agreed in principal is £112,500 repayment.

I'm looking forward to the results...

Bit of a noob really aren't yer ?

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Mean. The word "average" unqualified generally indicates the mean. So when the original poster said it was an above average job, he presumably meant above the mean, not the median,

This is typical, both mean and median are very misleading when it comes to earnings.

Imagine if I was in the govt which average would I use if I wanted to make out that the hypothetical Mr. "Average " was doing better than he really is...answer the mean beacause it is distorted upwards by a few high earners.

The median is a notional value which is just a hypothetical middle number which might actually be earned by only one person. Some average eh!

The only useful average where wages are concerned is the Mode which is the wage that is earned by the largest number of people.

This is likely to be closer to £20k than £25k

In my humble opinion of course, but then again I am usually right :rolleyes:

Limpet

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This is typical, both mean and median are very misleading when it comes to earnings.

Imagine if I was in the govt which average would I use if I wanted to make out that the hypothetical Mr. "Average " was doing better than he really is...answer the mean beacause it is distorted upwards by a few high earners.

The median is a notional value which is just a hypothetical middle number which might actually be earned by only one person. Some average eh!

The only useful average where wages are concerned is the Mode which is the wage that is earned by the largest number of people.

This is likely to be closer to £20k than £25k

In my humble opinion of course, but then again I am usually right :rolleyes:

Limpet

Using the mode makes no sense at all when looking at earnings. Imagine a hypothetical world with 10,000,000 people, with the first one earning £0.01 per year, the second one earning £0.02 per year, all the way up to the 10 millionth one earning £100,000.00 per year. The mean and median are both £50,000, which is reasonably informative. The mode is undefined. Now, add one more person earning £0.01. The mean and median are just under £50,000, but the mode is £0.01. If instead you add one more person earning £100,000, the mean and median are just over £50,000, but the mode is £100,000. Do you really want to use a measure that can change so drastically based on tiny changes in the overall population?

You may object that it's a pathological example, but there are plenty of non-pathological cases that still give stupid results. Suppose, for example, that a city has a large civil service operation with fixed pay-scales -- it's very likely that the commonest pay band for that particular employer will be the mode, as there will be a lot of people earning exactly the same amount to the nearest penny. Get another large employer, and the mode may suddenly shift if they have more people in their commonest pay band.

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The mode figure was mentioned on SKY news, (and is downloadable from the links on HPC) :P

50% earn 16K

Someone will post the graph that has been linked before aswell.

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The mode figure was mentioned on SKY news, (and is downloadable from the links on HPC) :P

50% earn 16K

Someone will post the graph that has been linked before aswell.

Half of the population earn exactly £16,000.00, to the nearest penny? Seems rather implausible.

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Using the mode makes no sense at all when looking at earnings. Imagine a hypothetical world with 10,000,000 people, with the first one earning £0.01 per year, the second one earning £0.02 per year, all the way up to the 10 millionth one earning £100,000.00 per year. The mean and median are both £50,000, which is reasonably informative. The mode is undefined. Now, add one more person earning £0.01. The mean and median are just under £50,000, but the mode is £0.01. If instead you add one more person earning £100,000, the mean and median are just over £50,000, but the mode is £100,000. Do you really want to use a measure that can change so drastically based on tiny changes in the overall population?

You may object that it's a pathological example, but there are plenty of non-pathological cases that still give stupid results. Suppose, for example, that a city has a large civil service operation with fixed pay-scales -- it's very likely that the commonest pay band for that particular employer will be the mode, as there will be a lot of people earning exactly the same amount to the nearest penny. Get another large employer, and the mode may suddenly shift if they have more people in their commonest pay band.

Using the Mode only makes no sense in that kind of hypothetical situation that you cite, you know , the kind that only exists in your imagination.

Do you deny that using the Mean , which includes the Richard Bransons and the David Beckhams of this

world distorts the "average" upwards to effectively make it unrecognisable to the man in the street.

Also I was not talking about another hypothetical city or company but about the whole nation of more than 50 million people, where I still maintain that the most commonly paid salary will be around £19k, the next most commonly paid salary will be just below or just above this figure and so on.

The mean is ONLY used because of this distorting effect, as it suits the govt`s purpose.

As it does to fiddle the inflation figures, and the unemployment figures and so on ........

I suppose the main problem is that most people either don`t care about or don`t understand the significance,

and when they hear average ( in the form of mean ) they imagine it is the same as "typical".

After all if you asked the question " what would be the chances of the next person coming in the room having the ( mean ) average no of legs" a lot of people would think it very likely.

And we both know that the odds would be astronomical!

Don`t we :rolleyes:

But as for the ( Modal ) average, it is almost guaranteed.

Mean and median have there uses, but in the real world , with real wages , ( and legs ) the Mode has got to be more representative.

How many people do you know with 2.4 children?

And I still think I am right

Limpet

:D:D

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Good thread, but we should also note classix gave a fairly conservative measure of living costs. Who pays for the kid's clothes and other needs? How did he buy the car?

Is it a reliable new or newish car with a monthly payment? Insurance? Repairs?

Are there any other debts? After all, he must have spent a long time on a much lower income and lower paid people are vulnerable to debt.

I'd guess the debt mountain covers a vast number of families living on credit and hoping that somehow, just somehow, everything will magically come out in the wash.

Plus he hasn't got anywhere near 750 quid to spend on a mortgage. What about the council tax? The buildings insurance? Bills?

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Guest rigsby II

The challenge...Can anyone on HPC find a SUITABLE property for a married Office Manager aged 35 with twins of 6 months? His mortgage agreed in principal is £112,500 repayment.

Wouldn't someone with 10 years experience at 35 years old already have bought a property 10 years ago and so have plenty of equity to move up, say £100,000+

So he'd be looking at a £212,500+ house ?

If he hadn't bought 10 years ago then he needs his bumps feeling.

If you had said he was 22 years old, then yes I agree, he will have to take it royally up the chuff and I see no quick way out of his mess.

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Good thread, but we should also note classix gave a fairly conservative measure of living costs. Who pays for the kid's clothes and other needs? How did he buy the car?

Is it a reliable new or newish car with a monthly payment? Insurance? Repairs?

Are there any other debts? After all, he must have spent a long time on a much lower income and lower paid people are vulnerable to debt.

I'd guess the debt mountain covers a vast number of families living on credit and hoping that somehow, just somehow, everything will magically come out in the wash.

Plus he hasn't got anywhere near 750 quid to spend on a mortgage. What about the council tax? The buildings insurance? Bills?

What about the £2,400 per year he'll be getting on top of his salary in Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit? Those should help a good deal.

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this is a good thread.

classixuk points out what should be obvious and makes apparent the need for either

MASSIVE WAGE INFLATION or a serious housing correction.

i cant believe the government are so dumb to this mecca house inflation.

here is the price you pay.

this might be new labours downfall.

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Crikey! Some of these posts are a bit above me to be honest. I was hoping to find some nice links to some properties.

The comedy has had me laughing out loud, but I'll try and comment on the links etc that have been posted so far...

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-833...pa_n=1&tr_t=buy

That's in Birkenhead. Have things become so ridiculous with house prices that the only way to afford a property is to buy in the next county and travel for 1.5 hours by car each day to get to work?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-451...pa_n=4&tr_t=buy

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-571...a_n=77&tr_t=buy

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-917...a_n=77&tr_t=buy

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-490...a_n=78&tr_t=buy

Bart of Darkness, I'm glad you looked up the crime figures for those areas! LOL Saves me offending any HPCers living there.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-905...a_n=78&tr_t=buy

It's in Wigan, Lancashire! Merseyside's a big place, surely we can find something?

Zorn: "Correct, it's not the average job. It's below average. Average male full-time earnings in Liverpool are around £23,000 (£22,077 from the 2004 AHSE, then add around 5% for wage inflation since mid 2004)."

But you can't compare an office job with that of a cleaner, sales assistant and doctor. You need to compare like for like. Your evaluation could be likened to comparing a 3 bed semi in Scotland to a 2 bed flat in the docklands.

The 2003 AHSE says that the average male full-time earnings in Liverpool in the Administrative and Secreterial occupations is £17,903.60PA. Add 5% twice (following your example) and the average wage should now be £19,738. This guy is being offered £21,639 which is above average for that industry.

An interesting fact that you may wish to consider also is that the AHSE clearly states the numbers of people in the sample (and their occupations) when gathering statistics. In the 2003 report, the breakdown of the numbers used in the sample reveals that the earnings of 990 corporate managers were considered, yet just 237 sales and customer service employees in order to calculate the average wage for the North West.

Surely you'd agree that this hardly represents the correct balance required to calculate the true average wage for the region? 998 corporate managers bossing 237 staff about? Too many chiefs my friend!

Alright Jack: "Bit of a noob really aren't yer ?"

You been playing Counterstrike again?

Crashed Out and Burned: "Good thread, but we should also note classix gave a fairly conservative measure of living costs. Who pays for the kid's clothes and other needs? How did he buy the car?

Is it a reliable new or newish car with a monthly payment? Insurance? Repairs?

Are there any other debts? After all, he must have spent a long time on a much lower income and lower paid people are vulnerable to debt.

I'd guess the debt mountain covers a vast number of families living on credit and hoping that somehow, just somehow, everything will magically come out in the wash.

Plus he hasn't got anywhere near 750 quid to spend on a mortgage. What about the council tax? The buildings insurance? Bills?"

I was being optimistic, didn't want the bulls accusing me of suggesting this guy actually has a life. For the purpose of this exercise I imagined a guy who never goes out, never eats take-away, never buys new clothing (except underwear) and survives on beans on toast. According to some bulls, that's what it takes to get on the property ladder! :)

Rigsby II:"Wouldn't someone with 10 years experience at 35 years old already have bought a property 10 years ago and so have plenty of equity to move up, say £100,000+"

Not really. The average age of a FTB these days is 34! Perhaps you're feeling a little nostalgic?"

Zorn: "What about the £2,400 per year he'll be getting on top of his salary in Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit? Those should help a good deal."

That money is to help feed, clothe and educate his kids. You don't expect them to starve just so he can buy a better house do you?

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Zorn: "What about the £2,400 per year he'll be getting on top of his salary in Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit? Those should help a good deal."[/i]

That money is to help feed, clothe and educate his kids. You don't expect them to starve just so he can buy a better house do you?

Are you sure it's not to feed, clothe, educate and house his kids?

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Zorn, I have twins and believe me £2,400 a year (less than £50 a week) does not come close to paying for their food, clothes, nappies, nursery stuff, extra electric & gas, extra cleaning products....... There is nothing left over to provide housing.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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