interestrateripoff Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20561444 George Osborne and the public sector unions were never going to be the best of friends. And the signs are that he will not be throwing them many bones in next week's Autumn Statement.One of his first acts as chancellor was to announce a two-year pay freeze for two-thirds of public sector workers. There is speculation in Whitehall that he will extend that freeze next week, or at least put a tight limit on next year's pay awards. Mr Osborne also made clear that he was not worried about public sector job cuts. After years of rapid growth, he expected the number of people to shrink. Though the plan was that it would happen slowly enough for the private sector to make up the lost jobs. So how is he doing on this crucial piece of the government's budget? That's a question I will try to answer on Friday's TV news. When it comes to cutting jobs, it turns out that the chancellor has been more successful than anyone imagined (and so, for that matter, has the private sector when it comes to creating them). But that has not translated into a fall in the government's pay bill, for reasons which remain a bit unclear. .. But another, more surprising factor is that a lot of civil servants - in Whitehall departments, but also places like the NHS and the police - have continued to receive the "annual increments" they're entitled to, for building up experience. Despite the pay freeze. So jobs lost, pay freeze and the bill still goes up. But then we have increments, it would appear that this was deliberately left so the unions wouldn't call massive strike action, they can make all the noise they like about pay freezes to keep up the illusion that this is happening when in reality each year everyone gets a nice pay increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20561444 So jobs lost, pay freeze and the bill still goes up. But then we have increments, it would appear that this was deliberately left so the unions wouldn't call massive strike action, they can make all the noise they like about pay freezes to keep up the illusion that this is happening when in reality each year everyone gets a nice pay increase. My guess is that when it became obvious that Labour might lose the election 10's of thousands of extra posts were created that were never filled you can then remove these posts (public sector job cuts) and increase the grades of those remaining while showing a nominal saving in wages this results in jobs (posts) being cut while at the same time peoples real wages rise (despite pay freeze) Simples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrey Girl Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I know people in Civil Service who have not had a pay rise in years. I also know of entire departments which no longer exist. The job cuts are very real. The only explanation I can thing of is that maybe the redundancy costs count towards the pay figures? Dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eagle Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 They probably replaced the permanent positions with 'contractors' and 'consultants' who are obviously paid far more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 They probably replaced the permanent positions with 'contractors' and 'consultants' who are obviously paid far more. There is clearly something funny going on. They are sacking people but somehow managing to spend more of fewer people. I guess some of it could be due to one off costs like redundancy, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opt_out Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 There is clearly something funny going on. They are sacking people but somehow managing to spend more of fewer people. I guess some of it could be due to one off costs like redundancy, etc? Everyone who can is getting out early with their pensions made up to 67% if they're not already there. This has been going on for at least 5 years probably 10, but at first it was only the wise ones, now everyone is running for the exit because they have realised that promises can be broken (up to the point of retirement at least, so far there is no indication that they can grab it back after you've done the deal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opt_out Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I know people in Civil Service who have not had a pay rise in years. I also know of entire departments which no longer exist. The job cuts are very real. The only explanation I can thing of is that maybe the redundancy costs count towards the pay figures? Dunno. Job cuts don't quite mean the same thing for civil servants as for those in the private sector. In the private sector it means you lose your job. In public service it means you either have to move to another job (all expenses paid) or take redundancy/early retirement, where they bring your super generous terms forward and make you an offer you'd be mad to resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workingatthepyramid Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Everyone who can is getting out early with their pensions made up to 67% if they're not already there. This has been going on for at least 5 years probably 10, but at first it was only the wise ones, now everyone is running for the exit because they have realised that promises can be broken (up to the point of retirement at least, so far there is no indication that they can grab it back after you've done the deal). this i can not get out quick enough, i could go at 50 ...that's now 55.. i feel like i am waiting for the last chopper out of Saigon and i am pretty sure i am going to get thrown off the roof. whatever, if they don't move the goalposts i will bite their hands off for whatever i can get as soon as i can get it, in ponziworld it is the only strategy that make any sense if i am honest i reckon my pension paperwork will only be worth its weight in toilet paper by the time i am allowed to collect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workingatthepyramid Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 this i can not get out quick enough, i could go at 50 ...that's now 55.. i feel like i am waiting for the last chopper out of Saigon and i am pretty sure i am going to get thrown off the roof. whatever, if they don't move the goalposts i will bite their hands off for whatever i can get as soon as i can get it, in ponziworld it is the only strategy that make any sense if i am honest i reckon my pension paperwork will only be worth its weight in toilet paper by the time i am allowed to collect it. just to say i have done my time, as it is, in the private sector don't want people to think i have had my nose in the trough and am looking to get away with the evil-gottten-gains #isthereanedit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rit Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The few people I know are doing fine because of the increments. One is doing very well as they keep getting promotions as the person above then takes early retirement packages, as you can guess their future penson rights are looking better and better. Their only fear is that they in turn will not be able to take early retirement in a few years time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opt_out Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The few people I know are doing fine because of the increments. One is doing very well as they keep getting promotions as the person above then takes early retirement packages, as you can guess their future penson rights are looking better and better. Their only fear is that they in turn will not be able to take early retirement in a few years time. Most on hpc are now aware of the 'increments'. This is the wonderful sleight of hand whereby Govt can announce a pay freeze and yet nearly everyone still gets an increase in their pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsaucer Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Most on hpc are now aware of the 'increments'. This is the wonderful sleight of hand whereby Govt can announce a pay freeze and yet nearly everyone still gets an increase in their pay. Clearly another example of omniscient hpcers knowing far more about the public sector than those who work there. Care to tell me what they are, cos I'd love to know! My salary's gone up by a total of 1% since 2010 (in real terms down several per cent due to increased pensions contributions, and that's even before you take considerable inflation into account). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozza Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Clearly another example of omniscient hpcers knowing far more about the public sector than those who work there. Care to tell me what they are, cos I'd love to know! My salary's gone up by a total of 1% since 2010 (in real terms down several per cent due to increased pensions contributions, and that's even before you take considerable inflation into account). All I know is that anyone in the Department of Health is getting 'increments'. A friend works (*work* - ha ha - full time pay with part time work, including one day off a week to get a masters at the taxpayers expense) there so it's from the horse's mouth so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Clearly another example of omniscient hpcers knowing far more about the public sector than those who work there. Care to tell me what they are, cos I'd love to know! My salary's gone up by a total of 1% since 2010 (in real terms down several per cent due to increased pensions contributions, and that's even before you take considerable inflation into account). youve done very well then...many in the Private Sector cant get a rise at all... Went to a job meeting yesterday, now funded by various charities. Its been running about 18 months and is heavy on goodwill by the team but light on action. They reckon ( producing government figures) that the Growth Areas in Jobs are: 1. Management 2. Professional 3. Technical. In that order. And from the attendance at the meeting, Is say they were right. From memory for the 4 hour afternoon presentation: about 30 attendees. 1 unemployed. 9 regulars all now not unemployed, but self employed. 5 new attendees, not unemployed but networking 4 Local Councillors seeing what they can do to help 3 Council employees seeing how their departments can help 6 Charity Directors seeing how their money IS and could be spent 2 0rganisors. Havent added the figures, but this was my Impression. 2 councillors were from a local law firm Here we have a breakdown of the scenario as we have it in the UK...this is the boomer generation over 50. 1 person really has been made redundant and is seeking help about one third more are unemployed too, but being self motivated, they start any business they can think of. about 2 thirds of the group are "helping" the other third Diversity was strong in the Money giving Organisation motives. so here we have it....the meeting embodied the future...management, quangos and professionals, helping the unemployed and the entreprenuers to get back on their feet. I know where I am heading.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albimac Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The increments don't go on forever. For the majority (I guess), a ceiling exists on each pay band which can only be overcome with promotion. So when you're at the top of a specific band your wages will be static. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The increments don't go on forever. For the majority (I guess), a ceiling exists on each pay band which can only be overcome with promotion. So when you're at the top of a specific band your wages will be static. you said it. Promotion. reduce a manager, add one, reduce another, add one. As I was shown yesterday, MANAGEMENT is a growth industry.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 you said it. Promotion. reduce a manager, add one, reduce another, add one. As I was shown yesterday, MANAGEMENT is a growth industry.... Dont think so. That would mean you would end up with all chiefs and no indians. The only explanation is that there exists a substantial proportion of public sector workers who have not yet hit their pay ceiling. Looking at the Army, for example, there are 9 pay points for private/lance corporal ranks ranging from £17 to £24k. If the Army's payrole is still increasing despite large numbers of redundancies, that can only be explained by a large proportion of staff still being mobile on the pay scale within their existing rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Dont think so. That would mean you would end up with all chiefs and no indians. snip this IS the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 this IS the plan. So we will have whole battalions of WO2's? Seems pretty unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 so far there is no indication that they can grab it back after you've done the deal). Hyperinflation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I ♥ spreadsheets Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 This certainly doesn't tally with what I'm seeing in local government where budgets are being slashed. Increments exist for those not stuck at the top of their band (this has always been the case) but obviously there's been no inflation increases (which used to exist alongside the pay scale increases). Contractors are simply people on short term contracts being paid similar salaries to permies at the bottom of the scale, and exist via specific grants / capital projects. Management is being cut heavily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albimac Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 1354353123[/url]' post='909202347']Hyperinflation. . They're linked to CPI so the yearly increase should keep pace (very roughly) in that kind of environment. I do realise that everything will have turned nasty by that point & I would rather in that type of environment, have my vigour/strength than be old/frail with a CPi linked pension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 So we will have whole battalions of WO2's? Seems pretty unlikely. The WHOLE of Government is Management.... or maybe you hadnt noticed....as I indicated from my meeting yesterday...there were loads of managers out to help...1 actual unemployed person Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 . They're linked to CPI so the yearly increase should keep pace (very roughly) in that kind of environment. I do realise that everything will have turned nasty by that point & I would rather in that type of environment, have my vigour/strength than be old/frail with a CPi linked pension. CPI is a year behind reality. Hyperinflation could wipe you out in a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsaucer Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Dont think so. That would mean you would end up with all chiefs and no indians. The only explanation is that there exists a substantial proportion of public sector workers who have not yet hit their pay ceiling. Looking at the Army, for example, there are 9 pay points for private/lance corporal ranks ranging from £17 to £24k. If the Army's payrole is still increasing despite large numbers of redundancies, that can only be explained by a large proportion of staff still being mobile on the pay scale within their existing rank. Please tell me where these departments with mobile pay scales are and I'll be there like a shot! There's certainly no mobility in any of the three or four big public sector employers me and my friends work for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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