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J.m.keynes


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... sitting at credit-pumped valuations.

Some are more pumped that others.

The main question is, if you are unhappy with an investment strategy, do you complain about it's performance, or do you try something different ?

If you're holding cash you should be aware of the consequences of your decision and be happy with it.

The argument is very circular. People complain about inflation. Then you say to them, maybe try another strategy Then they say "I don't want to gamble". What they seem to miss is that its this very "I don't want to gamble" outlook that allows the government to set the inflation level in the first place ! So in effect you are paying the inflation tax for what you perceive as safety. Nothing comes for free.

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So cash isn't a gamble then ?

I wouldn't imagine it will crash overnight, even in the Weimar Republic it probably came on in a nice even curve. I suppose a lot on this forum are happy to lose 1-2% per annum in real terms if property is losing 5% ( owning a house, means I should be a bit more proactive with my cash). I agree that in the longer term assets look the safer bet if you can ignore the wild fluctuations that are occuring in commodities and equities in the short term.

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Exactly. And if you didn't pay that tax via inflation then you would pay it some other way.

There are a few good things about inflation, namely the tax is proportional to how much cash/savings you have, that it is paid by any holder of the currency or debts due in the currency. This means that a burden that would be shouldered solely by UK nationals is shared amongst all world holders of the currency. The tax is also easily avoidable. You don't have to hold much in currency if you don't want to and can therefore avoid the inflation tax if you wish. Surely if you dislike inflation you choose not to pay the tax by piling into assets.

People who are now too old to sell their Labour have to rely on savings in order to survive.

When inflation rips, these are the people who suffer.

It must be pretty hard to see a lifetime of hard work destroyed in a couple of years.

:blink:

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And when you've read the above - you can head on over to the "N I R P" thread:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=96852&st=0

and perhaps after that the 'NIRP Warning' thread.

Are you still banging on about Deflation?

We will never, ever, ever get deflation in the UK

they will keep printing until they lose control of inflation

then they will have to hike interest rates.

At the moment everyone is far deeper in the crap than we are, so they are getting away with it.

The fact remains, however, that what they are getting away with is theft on a grand scale.

:blink:

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People who are now too old to sell their Labour have to rely on savings in order to survive.

When inflation rips, these are the people who suffer.

It must be pretty hard to see a lifetime of hard work destroyed in a couple of years.

:blink:

They never had those savings in the first place. They should have been paid in tax to prevent us running up the debt. Now they are being taxed though inflation to help us pay it down.

A couple of years is overdoing it a bit. You don't have to be too old to remember inflation running a lot higher than it is now.

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They never had those savings in the first place. They should have been paid in tax to prevent us running up the debt. Now they are being taxed though inflation to help us pay it down.

A couple of years is overdoing it a bit. You don't have to be too old to remember inflation running a lot higher than it is now.

Many of these people worked from age 14 and lived very frugally for decades in order to pay into pensions and save for their retirement.

Had they pissed everything up the wall we wouldn't be any better off

in fact we would be even worse off.

And once the state has stolen everything they have, the state will then have to borrow even more to support these people

unless the plan is to leave them to starve or freeze to death.

:blink:

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Many of these people worked from age 14 and lived very frugally for decades in order to pay into pensions and save for their retirement.

Had they pissed everything up the wall we wouldn't be any better off

in fact we would be even worse off.

And once the state has stolen everything they have, the state will then have to borrow even more to support these people

unless the plan is to leave them to starve or freeze to death.

:blink:

Doesn't sound like a lot of boomers I know. There may be a significant number of pensioners who are close to the breadline, but there are also a significant number who are doing very nicely, if less nicely than they were a few years ago.

Inflation as a tax is quite fair. it taxes the people with the most savings. These are the people who have been around the longest and have benefited most from the government running up the debt.

Anyway, the debt has to be paid down. The debt will not be paid down by either people with no money or by loading up people with more debt. It will be paid down by people who have money.

The government did not level with the people. It spent loads of money and kept taxes low. People kept voting for the party that would spend the most and tax the least. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where that's going to end up.

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Doesn't sound like a lot of boomers I know. There may be a significant number of pensioners who are close to the breadline, but there are also a significant number who are doing very nicely, if less nicely than they were a few years ago.

Inflation as a tax is quite fair. it taxes the people with the most savings. These are the people who have been around the longest and have benefited most from the government running up the debt.

Anyway, the debt has to be paid down. The debt will not be paid down by either people with no money or by loading up people with more debt. It will be paid down by people who have money.

The government did not level with the people. It spent loads of money and kept taxes low. People kept voting for the party that would spend the most and tax the least. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where that's going to end up.

Don't necessarily disagree, the point I was making is that it is unfair to blame the people who are now being robbed.

They were lied to the same way we are being lied to now.

If people who worked for 30-40 years are the cause of our problems

what share of the blame should entire generations of families who have never worked in their lives take?

:blink:

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Doesn't sound like a lot of boomers I know. There may be a significant number of pensioners who are close to the breadline, but there are also a significant number who are doing very nicely, if less nicely than they were a few years ago.

Inflation as a tax is quite fair. it taxes the people with the most savings. These are the people who have been around the longest and have benefited most from the government running up the debt.

Anyway, the debt has to be paid down. The debt will not be paid down by either people with no money or by loading up people with more debt. It will be paid down by people who have money.

The government did not level with the people. It spent loads of money and kept taxes low. People kept voting for the party that would spend the most and tax the least. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where that's going to end up.

Just as a matter of interest, I was born in 1961, so does that make me a 'boomer' ?

I think I am probably on the boundary between guilty and victim

:blink:

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Just as a matter of interest, I was born in 1961, so does that make me a 'boomer' ?

I think I am probably on the boundary between guilty and victim

:blink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomer

I think the terms guilty and victim are a bit emotive. There are actions and there are consequences. Unfortunately not all of our own making.

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Don't necessarily disagree, the point I was making is that it is unfair to blame the people who are now being robbed.

They were lied to the same way we are being lied to now.

If people who worked for 30-40 years are the cause of our problems

what share of the blame should entire generations of families who have never worked in their lives take?

:blink:

It would be interesting to do a public poll of how many people trust the government.

Then do a similar one on how many people pay into pensions. The results could be quite interesting.

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Doesn't sound like a lot of boomers I know. There may be a significant number of pensioners who are close to the breadline, but there are also a significant number who are doing very nicely, if less nicely than they were a few years ago.

Inflation as a tax is quite fair. it taxes the people with the most savings. These are the people who have been around the longest and have benefited most from the government running up the debt.

Anyway, the debt has to be paid down. The debt will not be paid down by either people with no money or by loading up people with more debt. It will be paid down by people who have money.

The government did not level with the people. It spent loads of money and kept taxes low. People kept voting for the party that would spend the most and tax the least. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where that's going to end up.

Fine, so therefore they will have to be paying more to replace all the savings saved over many years of working. ;)

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Just as a matter of interest, I was born in 1961, so does that make me a 'boomer' ?

I think I am probably on the boundary between guilty and victim

:blink:

Tbh I don't feel that lucky myself. Born August 64, couldn't get a placement in school til I was five and a half because of it being a baby boomer year. Fell behind, though came out of schooling from a sink secondary modern at 15 with 5 O levels. (quite good in those days before grade inflation). Since got in almost 33 years of NIC contributions, but the retirement age just seems to keep moving.

TBh a bit envious of older boomers, most of the generation above me (aunts and uncles) seemed to have got retirement deals after doing about 25 years, especially public sector ones. Reckon we are going to have to put in about 55 years before we catch the goal posts, if we ever do.

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It would be interesting to do a public poll of how many people trust the government.

Then do a similar one on how many people pay into pensions. The results could be quite interesting.

Speaking as a boomer ;)

I packed in work because I was sick of paying for single mothers living the life of Riley on my taxes.

You could make an argument that if the younger generation worked as hard as the older generation did

there would be plenty of money to pay for pensions.

Personally I think the welfare state destroyed the work ethic in our society and removed the incentive for many people to better themselves

in fact the welfare state penalises most people if they attempt to better themselves.

A bit off topic, but it is just another way of looking at how we got where we are now.

Either way it is clear that there is no painless way out of the situation

so it is really now just a question of who pays

and the answer is probably all of us.

:blink:

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Tbh I don't feel that lucky myself. Born August 64, couldn't get a placement in school til I was five and a half because of it being a baby boomer year. Fell behind, though came out of schooling from a sink secondary modern at 15 with 5 O levels. (quite good in those days before grade inflation). Since got in almost 33 years of NIC contributions, but the retirement age just seems to keep moving.

TBh a bit envious of older boomers, most of the generation above me (aunts and uncles) seemed to have got retirement deals after doing about 25 years, especially public sector ones. Reckon we are going to have to put in about 55 years before we catch the goal posts, if we ever do.

Probably if you take into account grade inflation your 5 o-levels=1 degree.

I was born a few years after you. When I look and see what the teenagers of today are going to go through I feel very lucky indeed.

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As I said I was born in 1961 and my wife in 1962 - so technically 'boomers'

When my wife started paying NI aged 16 she had to pay full stamp and was promised a pension at age 60

she is now looking at 68 and this will no doubt rise to 70 before we (hopefully) get to that age.

We had to endure bread queues, power cuts and constant strikes and had to find work in the last Labour recession.

We then took Thatchers medicine and the country recovered slightly

but now my daughter has been hit with 9k tuition fees so has not gone to Uni this year.

We were very lucky as she secured a rare as hen's teeth position as a trainee accountant with a blue chip company.

The people who's kids got free university education were the fortunate ones IMO

which again challenges the lucky 'boomer' stereotype.

As I said, personally I think the years in the definition are way out.

:blink:

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Personally I think the welfare state destroyed the work ethic in our society and removed the incentive for many people to better themselves

No- the work ethic was simply overwritten by greed is good. Ironically the only people we now expect to have a work ethic are the poor- we all accept without question that the rich are motivated purely by personal greed.

This is why a man paid a basic salary of a million pounds a year can demand a bonus in order to 'motivate' him- the notion that he might feel any moral obligation to actually earn that first million pounds is regarded as being so hopelessly naive as to be laughable.

Hence we have the moral absurdity of demanding a level of ethical behaviour from the least respected members of our society that we would not dream of expecting from those we respect most.

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No- the work ethic was simply overwritten by greed is good. Ironically the only people we now expect to have a work ethic are the poor- we all accept without question that the rich are motivated purely by personal greed.

This is why a man paid a basic salary of a million pounds a year can demand a bonus in order to 'motivate' him- the notion that he might feel any moral obligation to actually earn that first million pounds is regarded as being so hopelessly naive as to be laughable.

Hence we have the moral absurdity of demanding a level of ethical behaviour from the least respected members of our society that we would not dream of expecting from those we respect most.

TBH I don't really blame people for not working when they can live better on benefits.

And although I found the situation very annoying and demotivating, I blame the system and the people who set it up and really benefit from it, not those unknowingly trapped by it.

We must be the first society in history that actually pays millions of young, able bodied people to do nothing, as far as I am aware even 100% Socialist states expect everyone who can work to do so.

This is what annoys me when people defend the welfare state, because it is indefensible and those trapped in empty, pointless lives by it are just used as human shields by the people who control the system and in effect live off their misery.

Similarly, blaming bankers for the inevitable economic and social collapse is simplistic in the extreme and completely misses the reality of what has happened over the last 20-30 years.

:blink:

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