We're Middle Class And Successful - So Why Are We As Poor As Church Mice?

[ska_mna]

I haven't clicked on the link as it's the DM.

While the figures in the article may wall be bull...

If a household with an income of £80k isn't living comfortably then...

..how the SMEG is a household with an income of £35-£40k (vast swathes of population) coping?

Answer: benefits and/or living like hermits and not having children.

The problem here is that we've seen such rampant (hidden) inflation over the last decade or so, that the new minimum household income for comfortable middle class living is now, presumably, in excess of £80k. Anything less than that and you start to become increasingly dependent on the state or are on the breadline with no chance of starting a family.

The middle class, as known traditionally in the past, is being wiped out.

Also a quick appended anecdotal:

Was on holiday in Cornwall recently and was in a shop. Three well spoken kids (or what looked like kids) were chatting to owner of a small shop in a village while I was in the queue.

After they left, the lady commented to me: "Do you know, those lads have just bought a house here in the village. My daughter is 40 and still can't afford a mortgage!"

N.B. Houses in popular seaside villages in Cornwall look like they can go for £500k - £2m.

What I'd witnessed was further evidence of the increasing divide between the extremely wealthy (and their sons/daughters in this case) and the rest of us.

Our society is deeply fractured.

[MartinKeown]

You lot really are a misanthropic bunch of khunts aren't you?

Haven't read the article. Sure it looks like they aren't particularly careful with money but they don't seem abnormally wasteful. They are just suffering from the same problem as everyone else. And which readers of this website ought to recognise very quickly. Taxes and Rents are too high. I don't know how they earn their 80K but I would imagine they have had to work hard for it. This is not some idiot benefit claimant aggrieved that they have to move out of their central London pad. Frankly these people DO deserve the lifestyle they aspire to.

They are just a bit slow to wake up to the fact that rents are too high, landowners and other rentiers have taken all the wealth, the baby boomers let them, joined them or just avoided the issue by borrowing what they needed to keep up and assumed their kids would pay. Now there's no wealth left for anyone under about 40 who are left to either wait for an inheritance or work their ******** off to pay for it all.

As far as I can see its not (especially) the fault of the individuals in the article - they were probably too busy working whilst you moany ******* idle away your time, changing sweet ****** all, on here.

But the problems recognised on here affect pretty much everyone earning up to about 200-300K a year no matter where they sit on the social scale.

We have a form of almost perfect communism amongst earners. Over a 100K a year you are paying probably about 70-80% of your earnings in tax and rents in order to keep the helpless and the feckless from rioting so that the holders of wealth can enjoy it in peace. Its probably just about worth it but we have arrived, through trial and error, at something that looks like the peak of the Laffer Curve where people will keep on plodding on but where it barely feels like its worth the effort. These people are pretty much at the peak of their own personal Laffer Curve. Its frankly ludicrous that this can happen at a salary that cannot afford a family house, but we can all see how its happened.

The only options now are high inflation, hyperinflation/default/collapse or a wealth tax. The latter would be fairest and most sensible but is probably least likely to happen. Next best we can all hope for is high inflation without hyperinflation and collapse.

[Si1]

YAWN.

You are stating it as fact that they have a large, unaffordable low interest rate "stoopid" loan when in fact the article does not state anywhere the size, length or interest rate of their mortgage.

Unless you know their finances better than they do then you are stating your assumption as fact.

yes it's an educated guess, so what? it's still a reasonable one

and it's not like I'm penning a white paper on economics here is it...

[worried1]

The problem here is that we've seen such rampant (hidden) inflation over the last decade or so, that the new minimum household income for comfortable middle class living is now, presumably, in excess of £80k. Anything less than that and you start to become increasingly dependent on the state or are on the breadline with no chance of starting a family.

The key factors are when/if people bought a house and if they had kids or not.

I'd say the average household income in my group of friends locally is about £100k, but this is in London so that must be broadly comparable to £80k in most of the rest of the country.

None of them are struggling like that on that type of money, BUT they all either bought places years ago or are renting now and none of them has kids. If you had to add £500 or so a month for mortgage costs or £1k extra for the cost of a couple of kids I guess it could cause problems.

[mitchbux]

£8.5k per year on mortgage interest can hardly be described as a "stoopid big mortgage".

Depends what the interest rate is? The interest part of our mortgage is less than 10% of that, if we owed 10 times our current outstanding balance I'd not be sleeping at night.

[wherebee]

You lot really are a misanthropic bunch of khunts aren't you?

Haven't read the article. Sure it looks like they aren't particularly careful with money but they don't seem abnormally wasteful. They are just suffering from the same problem as everyone else. And which readers of this website ought to recognise very quickly. Taxes and Rents are too high. I don't know how they earn their 80K but I would imagine they have had to work hard for it. This is not some idiot benefit claimant aggrieved that they have to move out of their central London pad. Frankly these people DO deserve the lifestyle they aspire to.

They are just a bit slow to wake up to the fact that rents are too high, landowners and other rentiers have taken all the wealth, the baby boomers let them, joined them or just avoided the issue by borrowing what they needed to keep up and assumed their kids would pay. Now there's no wealth left for anyone under about 40 who are left to either wait for an inheritance or work their ******** off to pay for it all.

As far as I can see its not (especially) the fault of the individuals in the article - they were probably too busy working whilst you moany ******* idle away your time, changing sweet ****** all, on here.

But the problems recognised on here affect pretty much everyone earning up to about 200-300K a year no matter where they sit on the social scale.

We have a form of almost perfect communism amongst earners. Over a 100K a year you are paying probably about 70-80% of your earnings in tax and rents in order to keep the helpless and the feckless from rioting so that the holders of wealth can enjoy it in peace. Its probably just about worth it but we have arrived, through trial and error, at something that looks like the peak of the Laffer Curve where people will keep on plodding on but where it barely feels like its worth the effort. These people are pretty much at the peak of their own personal Laffer Curve. Its frankly ludicrous that this can happen at a salary that cannot afford a family house, but we can all see how its happened.

The only options now are high inflation, hyperinflation/default/collapse or a wealth tax. The latter would be fairest and most sensible but is probably least likely to happen. Next best we can all hope for is high inflation without hyperinflation and collapse.

+5 internets

It does not matter if these people in the Mail are many wasteful gits or not. on their income they should damn well be able to be. The fact they are struggling underlines how the middle class is being wiped out by high house prices and high taxes. I have plenty of mates left in the UK whose parents were financially free at 60, yet their kids with similar education, brains, and careers (in terms of rank and relative income) are FECKED.

And I do not know what to advise them except emigrate.

[Spork of Damocles]

Haven't read the article.

Well that's par for the course on the interwebs.

Sure it looks like they aren't particularly careful with money but they don't seem abnormally wasteful. They are just suffering from the same problem as everyone else. And which readers of this website ought to recognise very quickly. Taxes and Rents are too high...

Ah yes, there's that "not reading the article" thing isn't there.

They're not renting. They pay £8.5k pa on their mortgage which they say is IO only. This is in London where very few people get to pay as little as that for a flat, let alone a 3-bed house when renting, so I'd agree rents are way too high. But that's not the situation here. As they're on an IO, assuming an interest rate of 4%, that's an outstanding mortgage of £220k, which doesn't seem all that much, so it's not an unreasonable assumption that they got in before prices really went to pot. So, while it's true housing costs too much, that doesn't look like it's the case here. They're no doubt collecting child benefit etc. So, they do seem to be victims of their own spending habits more than anything.

[kenzdawg]

4. Where on earth do Labour think this money is going to come from in society if those so high up the scale are recipients?

That more than anything was the New Labour masterstroke. Bribing the middle classes with the money they taxed off them. "Look at you, you hard working family, you. Here's 50 quid a week paid for by the 2.5% VAT increase. Buy the kids something from uncle Gordon! They deserve it!" Now everyone is a client of the state and (this was genius) they all started screaming about the injustice of it when it was taken away. A similar rat****** trick was to tax the lowest earners at basic rate then tell them to claim it back through the welfare system. Everyone pays tribute and gets "favours" in return you see.

Edited November 8, 2012 by kenzdawg

[longtomsilver]

We are living on £49,999 gross salary and living like kings.

Absurd!

[libspero]

We are living on £49,999 gross salary and living like kings.

Absurd!

Tell you have kids

[200p]

Perhaps they should live less like mice in a church, but more like Rastamouse.

Ezzzzzzesy now! Simple and ezzzzesy now!

[erranta]

http://www.dailymail...hurch-mice.html

There's more of this at the link for those whose blood pressure can bare it.

Is it just me or is this person failing to realise they have no money because they choose to keep spending it. I have no idea how a 3 bed house can be costing £2300 in energy costs unless your leaving everything on or the house has zero insulation?

But I thought everyone would like that all her problems are down to not getting on the property ladder...

How many years of 'FREE' higher education did they collectively take advantage of ?

(whilst millions poorer worked hard and paid for it with blood, sweat and taxes - never to get their advantage in life)

Edited November 8, 2012 by erranta

[Lion]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2229461/Were-middle-class-successful--poor-church-mice.html

There's more of this at the link for those whose blood pressure can bare it.

Is it just me or is this person failing to realise they have no money because they choose to keep spending it. I have no idea how a 3 bed house can be costing £2300 in energy costs unless your leaving everything on or the house has zero insulation?

But I thought everyone would like that all her problems are down to not getting on the property ladder...

Two main reasons for their feeling:

1) They earn too little (for London):

In London middle class starts in the meantime at a household income of around £100,000 (gross). You really need to be a GP, laywer, company director, city (bank) worker etc. to be middle class in London. For a comfortable life with three kids in a good area of London even £200,000 will not feel excessive and will easily be spent without much luxury.

2) They spend too much (for what they get/need):

Do they need a car for that much if they are squeezed or could not a car for £6000 have done it (in London you don't need it a lot anyway). Our household income exceeds £100,000 (gross) and the last car we bought was a 2 year old used car for £8,300. A more expensive car would have required us to borrow money, so we did not buy a more expensive one and paid this one out of our account, thus eliminating future repayments.

Insurance seems way too high - we pay for house (200)/car (360)/life (50)/car breakdown and homeserve (50) only about £660 in total.

Heating seems too high too - we spend on both gas and electriciy about £2,000 but have it always very warm in a large 3 bed semi. It is however well insulated, particularly in the loft, and has double glazing. If we invest in a new boiler I am sure we can bring these costs down by another 10%.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Lion

[Guest eight]

Perhaps they should live less like mice in a church, but more like Rastamouse.

Ezzzzzzesy now! Simple and ezzzzesy now!

You can definitely tell who has kids on this thread.

[waitingandsaving]

Middle classes have become the deserving poor

This one is from the Independent, is better written, and I have genuine sympathy and concerns for Darcey and Tarquin's Christmas this year - life is tough for the children of an Alpaca Teatowel seller you know...

[Si1]

Middle classes have become the deserving poor

This one is from the Independent, is better written, and I have genuine sympathy and concerns for Darcey and Tarquin's Christmas this year - life is tough for the children of an Alpaca Teatowel seller you know...

I had no idea Alpacas sold tea-towels, my word...

[Goat]

If a household with an income of £80k isn't living comfortably then...

..how the SMEG is a household with an income of £35-£40k (vast swathes of population) coping?

Answer: benefits and/or living like hermits and not having children.

The middle class, as known traditionally in the past, is being wiped out.

Exactly.

In the SE if you're not earning £80k+ and have kids then you're not going to be significantly better off than if you were on benefits.

The productive memebers of society are being taxed out of existance; the unproductive members are being subsidised to have more children. It doesn't take a genius to work out where that's going to end up.

[Pindar]

The impression I get is that this article attempts to make a serious and valid point about the struggle that most of use have maintaining the semblance of a "middle class" lifestyle by exaggerating the cost of living to the point where a seemingly reasonable salary appears stretched. The food bill, if you take into account that there are five people to feed and if you divide it by 5, comes out at around £50 a week each, which is not unreasonable.

I do agree though, a slow motion coup d'etat on our standard of living has taken place over the last 15 years or so. This was achieved primarily by pumping up house prices, which was made possible by a tidal wave of credit. I'm not sure if this was a political agenda at play or just plain greed.

This systematic enslavement only ends when the penny drops with the majority. I suspect it'll be a long drawn out process at best and at worst, it might be that by the time we realise we've been screwed, it'll be too late to turn back the tide. Each successive generation grows accustomed to a lowered standard of living, if it's done gradually. As the yoke of usury casts its ugly shadow over us, think of what will happen when the tipping point is reached of insufficient working people to support the increasingly aged population.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Pindar

[EmmaRoid #FBPE#JC4PM#GTTO]

Middle classes have become the deserving poor

This one is from the Independent, is better written, and I have genuine sympathy and concerns for Darcey and Tarquin's Christmas this year - life is tough for the children of an Alpaca Teatowel seller you know...

I'm waiting for a Daily Mash link to come up

[OnlyMe]

The impression I get is that this article attempts to make a serious and valid point about the struggle that most of use have maintaining the semblance of a "middle class" lifestyle by exaggerating the cost of living to the point where a seemingly reasonable salary appears stretched. The food bill, if you take into account that there are five people to feed and if you divide it by 5, comes out at around £50 a week each, which is not unreasonable.

I do agree though, a slow motion coup d'etat on our standard of living has taken place over the last 15 years or so. This was achieved primarily by pumping up house prices, which was made possible by a tidal wave of credit. I'm not sure if this was a political agenda at play or just plain greed.

This systematic enslavement only ends when the penny drops with the majority. I suspect it'll be a long drawn out process at best and at worst, it might be that by the time we realise we've been screwed, it'll be too late to turn back the tide. Each successive generation grows accustomed to a lowered standard of living, if it's done gradually. As the yoke of usury casts its ugly shadow over us, think of what will happen when the tipping point is reached of insufficient working people to support the increasingly aged population.

Having looked at today's jobs losss, companies losing money due to taxes, costs, reduced subsidies, reduced demand as ther product is no longer on the purchase list I think that point may not be as far away as you suggest.

We have had an inflation blowup (even more heavily masked by fudged stats) as bad as 2008 and we've been driven straight into the wall again.

[the gardener]

Of all the things they could be criticised for why are people picking on the £10k second hand car? We spent around £11k on a 3-year-old car (or rather, van) recently. We needed a 7 seater with good boot space and only a VW Caddy Maxi fitted the bill. £10k on a car is hardly extravagant.

[cybernoid]

Of all the things they could be criticised for why are people picking on the £10k second hand car? We spent around £11k on a 3-year-old car (or rather, van) recently. We needed a 7 seater with good boot space and only a VW Caddy Maxi fitted the bill. £10k on a car is hardly extravagant.

A 500 quid banger is not suitable for a family like that. Beyond that bangernomics range cars are more expensive at around the 2k+ range than they are around the 10k mark due to repair bills and higher running costs. Still its fun to foam at the mouth isnt it.

And of course the article is made up. Suckered in a couple here, amusing.

[punter]

Britain is becoming gradually a much poorer nation than it was. Of course the media can point to really successful people.. but I could go to Zimbabwe and point out really successful people.

The basic point is 40 years ago the average man, working the average job could support a whole family on his income. Everything, the mortgage, taxes, utility bills, food, clothing, car, the family vacation.. and still had enough left over to save 20% of their income.

All the governments statistics and lies cannot hide the fact that this just isn't the case anymore. Although as the descent continues it is getting harder to lie. In the last few years even average people are starting to notice that the economy is getting worse. Its hard to convince someone working part time that 'they've never had it so good'.

it is very true what you say about the working man supporting his family.

So what has caused the decline in living standards and incomes? Central bankinng, inflationism and fiat currency

Inflationism is very evil. The value of money has been stolen and living standards crushed.

Henry Ford used to pay his workers $5 a day in 1914, which equates to over $45,000/year in today's money. There was no income tax either so that's more like a take home pay of $90,000

So an entry level worker starting a job at Ford motor company would be earning the equivalent of £56,000/year today

[FLASH_2007]

it is very true what you say about the working man supporting his family.

So what has caused the decline in living standards and incomes? Central bankinng, inflationism and fiat currency

I think it was the fact that once a lot more women started working the bankers saw it was an opportunity to start mortgage lending using joint incomes.It all went downhill from there.

[snowflux]

A 500 quid banger is not suitable for a family like that. Beyond that bangernomics range cars are more expensive at around the 2k+ range than they are around the 10k mark due to repair bills and higher running costs. Still its fun to foam at the mouth isnt it.

And of course the article is made up. Suckered in a couple here, amusing.

You are, of course joking. My own little Suzuki Swift is able to transport 2 adults and 3 children from A to B at speeds up to and beyond 70 mph. It was bought 4 years for £1150 and has required minimal (£100 per year tops) maintenance since then. It's probably worth about £500 now. There is no reason whatsoever for buying a £10k car other than for status reasons.