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Socialism Strikes Back


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Left to their own devices humans work hard to accumulate the necessities of life

The empirical record proves you completely wrong.

Until about 200 years ago, humans didn't bother accumulating wealth.

And if they can produce a surplus they will generally do this in order to cover themselves against unforeseen shortages in the future

Nope.

In Socialist states there is no incentive for anyone to work harder than the absolute minimum they can get away with

which is why Socialism inevitably fails.

You are talking to someone who gave up work because the state took so much from me that I was better off not working

and there are 8 million people economically inactive in the UK now

Failure is built into this type of system.

:blink:

Only if you think the point of such a system is to produce wealth.

But only a complete ******wit would think that.

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The empirical record proves you completely wrong.

Until about 200 years ago, humans didn't bother accumulating wealth.

Nope.

Only if you think the point of such a system is to produce wealth.

But only a complete ******wit would think that.

This statement is complete and utter garbage

stater.jpg

:blink:

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Your weekly shopping bill, most of the items will cost you double vs the UK - Running a car about the same price as UK - buying a car twice the price of UK - so a new bog standard hatchback will cost you maybe 18-20K, or try running a 4 x 4.

"You do the math":

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=Norway&city1=London&city2=Oslo

Consumer Prices in Oslo are 31.70% higher than in London

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Oslo are 16.79% higher than in London

Rent Prices in Oslo are 20.55% lower than in London

Restaurant Prices in Oslo are 57.26% higher than in London

Groceries Prices in Oslo are 49.41% higher than in London

Local Purchasing Power in Oslo is 15.37% higher than in London

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Then why did humans live in more or less the exact same unrelenting squalor for the entirety of their history up until that point?

hmmm?

Humans have worked to accumulate surpluses for thousands of years.

Domestication of plants and animals began about 10,000 years ago

the 'Neolithic revolution'

prior to that humans were hunter gatherers and if they could gather and store a surplus they would do so.

:blink:

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The empirical record proves you completely wrong.

Until about 200 years ago, humans didn't bother accumulating wealth.

Nope.

Only if you think the point of such a system is to produce wealth.

But only a complete ******wit would think that.

Not sure if serious! What was all the empire building that has gone on forever?

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Humans have worked to accumulate surpluses for thousands of years.

Domestication of plants and animals began about 10,000 years ago

the 'Neolithic revolution'

prior to that humans were hunter gatherers and if they could gather and store a surplus they would do so.

:blink:

So humans were hunter gatherers for most of their history and then invented farming, after which they still didn't amass great wealth until about 200 years ago.

Not sure where you are getting wealth accumulation as a high priority from, given all the evidence to the contrary.

Btw, my anti welfarist friend -

If humans were really interested in accumulating wealth then giving them hand outs wouldn't impact their productivity, would it?

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Sort of makes you wonder why all those armies travelled the globe. You are talking nonsense. I give up.

If humans were massively interested in wealth then armies wouldn't exist.

If they were massivley interested in wealth then welfare systems would be irrelevent to their productivity.

If they were massively interested in wealth accumulation they wouldn't have children.

etc etc

People just don't care that much about amassing wealth. I mean, look at your own behaviour - how much energy and effort do you put into becoming richer is it the prime focus of your life? I mean posting on here is a waste of your wealth accumulating time, isn't it?

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If humans were massively interested in wealth then armies wouldn't exist.

If they were massivley interested in wealth then welfare systems would be irrelevent to their productivity.

If they were massively interested in wealth accumulation they wouldn't have children.

etc etc

People just don't care that much about amassing wealth. I mean, look at your own behaviour - how much energy and effort do you put into becoming richer is it the prime focus of your life? I mean posting on here is a waste of your wealth accumulating time, isn't it?

Not if they can accumulate more wealth by gaming the welfare system

than they can by working

that's the whole point FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And for 99.9% of human history people had children to provide for them when they could no longer provide for themselves

having children is the ultimate in storing wealth for the future

when you are young fit and healthy you store the surplus food you cannot eat or preserve in your children who then feed you when you are too old to feed yourself.

All this is pretty basic human nature - which probably explains why you don't 'get it'

:blink:

Edited by Game_Over
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Not if they can accumulate more wealth by gaming the welfare system

than they can by working

that's the whole point FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And for 99.9% of human history people had children to provide for them when they could no longer provide for themselves

having children is the ultimate in storing wealth for the future

when you are young fit and healthy you store the surplus food you cannot eat or preserve in your children who then feed you when you are too old to feed yourself.

All this is pretty basic human nature - which probably explains why you don't 'get it'

:blink:

When there are welfare systems you see entrenched poverty and a lack of further ambition.

This is because people aren't that interested in wealth accumulation, they value other things. If people really bothered about wealth accumulation, then welfare systems wouldn't make any difference to lifestyles, choices or anything at all.

For 99.9% of all human history people have had the clothes on their backs, maybe a bit of a roof over their heads, a stick of furniture and ****** all else. It's not the MO of a creature dedicated to amassing wealth.

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When there are welfare systems you see entrenched poverty and a lack of further ambition.

This is because people aren't that interested in wealth accumulation, they value other things. If people really bothered about wealth accumulation, then welfare systems wouldn't make any difference to lifestyles, choices or anything at all.

For 99.9% of all human history people have had the clothes on their backs, maybe a bit of a roof over their heads, a stick of furniture and ****** all else. It's not the MO of a creature dedicated to amassing wealth.

That's because welfare systems create a poverty trap

not because people are happy with the barest minimum they need to survive

When people trapped on welfare try and accumulate wealth, the system takes more from them than they can additionally earn

hence the trap.

Oh and it seems like you never heard of Stonehenge or the Pyramids or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

:blink:

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You said humans did not bother accumalating wealth until 200 years ago. That is not true. However you want to spin it.

Energy has been the key to accumulating wealth with the leverage extra mechanical muscle can provide.

Imagine the size of the Roman empire if they had Oil and Gas technologies as we have.

Today, the aim of any westerner is to accumulate...200 years ago, it was to not starve next week.

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That's because welfare systems create a poverty trap

not because people are happy with the barest minimum they need to survive

When people trapped on welfare try and accumulate wealth, the system takes more from them than they can additionally earn

hence the trap.

No such trap exists if you really, really want to earn more wealth. It's piss simple to see that once you get over the hump, even more riches await. The other thing is, if people really, really wanted to amass more wealth, they would claim benefits, live in a cardboard box, never buy clothes and instead put it all to one side for later. They don't - because people aren't that arsed about accumulating wealth.

People don't mind making more stuff, it's just not a sky high priority compared to (for example) freedom. Or having a lie in.

Oh and it seems like you never heard of Stonehenge or the Pyramids or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

:blink:

The reason you've heard of those things is because they are so rare.

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No such trap exists if you really, really want to earn more wealth. It's piss simple to see that once you get over the hump, even more riches await. The other thing is, if people really, really wanted to amass more wealth, they would claim benefits, live in a cardboard box, never buy clothes and instead put it all to one side for later. They don't - because people aren't that arsed about accumulating wealth.

People don't mind making more stuff, it's just not a sky high priority compared to (for example) freedom. Or having a lie in.

The reason you've heard of those things is because they are so rare.

You obviously have no idea what life is really like for the majority of ordinary people especially those with children.

You can spend your entire working life trying to get over 'the hump' because as the welfare state grows like cancer

the amount taken from those in work to pay for it just increases relentlessly.

And the reason that humans did not have an industrial revolution until recent times is that it took millions of years of constant struggle for humanity to get its numbers to the critical mass necessary to support an advanced technological society.

How many humans did it take to put a man on the Moon? or does it take to make a microprocessor fabrication facility viable?

:blink:

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You obviously have no idea what life is really like for the majority of ordinary people especially those with children.

if people cared about wealth accumulation as a high priority, they wouldn't have children.

You can spend your entire working life trying to get over 'the hump' because as the welfare state grows like cancer

the amount taken from those in work to pay for it just increases relentlessly.

So what? Another penny is another penny. If people really had wealth accumulation as a high priority then they'd work anyway.

And the reason that humans did not have an industrial revolution until recent times is that it took millions of years of constant struggle for humanity to get its numbers to the critical mass necessary to support an advanced technological society.

How many humans did it take to put a man on the Moon? or does it take to make a microprocessor fabrication facility viable?

:blink:

About 450 and about 2,000

But ofc, none of those people were bothered about wealth accumulation. The moon journey in particular was a massive waste of resources.

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