Bull Challenge - Come on convince me!

[retter]

TTRTRs I think we all use our own assumptions when forming a conclusion, it is unavoidable.

That said your treatment of TB has been poor.

He has laid out quite cogently why your view of the market would lead to an exponentially invreasing house price which you must admit is simply not sustainable.

Whilst I respect your position it is simply not enough for you to say

But the fact is that I've been here discussing this for months now. I don't feel I constantly need to justify my thoughts to every new poster that comes along

You simply cannot dismiss points like this, or it appears incredibly arrogant.

You really must answer why your idea does not lead to exponentially increasing house prices or at least why exponentially increasing house prices are sustainable.

Otherwise you appear to evade that which you consider unpalitable.

Please don't think I'm being abusive by saying this I'm really not, and do not wish to cause offence.

[retter]

Oh, looking at TB regitration date it would appear that he joined on the 25th and you on the 17th (yes I'm aware you were around on the other forum, but so might he have been under a different name)

So not exactly a new poster.

[Time to raise the rents.]

I'm not here to argue and endless number of people's opinions. They're entitled to their opinions as are you & I.

Whether I can be bothered or not, does that say which direction the housing market is headed?

"exponentially increasing house prices " - impossible IMO, did I ever say it was possible? Do I need to argue on whether it is or not to be right or wrong in my own view? That's someone elses opinion & I don't have time for people who are so patronising in their remarks.

[Biggest Bear]

I'm, sorry guys but both myself and my girlfriend work in change management and we've NEVER heard of Hallejuah Diagrams and the like, so we do not accept that they are COMMON terms in business, science or IT.

We do however know of the principles behind your assertions, but have never known them to be defined in the way you describe and therefore we believe that your use of these words to define these principles is strictly confined to your own peer group etc.

Another comment is that you're not going to get a reasonable debate from TTTR, cos hes obviously not listened to the debate on these boards ever, my evidence is that he still got all his properties and is NOT in the process of selling parts of his portfolio, as I would expect most PROFESSIONAL Landlords to be doing at the moment, realising some PROFIT.

The fact that he isn't indicates to me that he must be an UNPROFESSIONAL Landlord.

Bring it on....... the market is going south, realise that and you may, just may not get burned

[BBB]

as I would expect most PROFESSIONAL Landlords to be doing at the moment, realising  some PROFIT.

The fact that he isn't indicates to me that he must be an UNPROFESSIONAL Landlord.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nonsense!!! you show yourself up as someone who does'nt have a clue about landlording, your words are a pure contradiction in terms. being a professional landlord, is about making money regardless of where capital values go. being a professional landlord is about NOT BEING A FORCED SELLER, in any downturns and being able to capitalise on rising values over the VERY long term.

why would a professional landlord sell a property that makes him money? if he sells all his properties that make him money then he would'nt be a professional landlord would he?!!!!!!!!!?

your words represent ''professional'' BTL bandwaggon hoppers. or in other words amateur landlords. selling now is the ONLY way they can make money. they bought one year ago, rates have risen 37%, they are now out of profit in cashflow terms. selling up and realising their 20k profit is their only way for them to make money.

amateur BTL v's professional landlord. please learn the difference.

so why is'nt TTRTR selling his properties? (along with myself) read the income thread theres your answer

[Who Knows]

From what I gather the key to TTRTR philosophy is interest rates. As long as IR's remain low buyers (whether FTB's or BTL's) will be happy to pile on increasing amounts of debt no matter how out of proportion it is to their salaries.

Even supposing lenders continue to support this and the general population are happy to calculate the risks of a hefty debt based purely on what the costs are at the moment of taking on the debt (eg not bothering to factor in the chance of a shift in the economy and a rate rise from the lowest rate in 30 years) this seems extremely unlikely. Most rents are already cheaper than the cost of a mortgage cutting of the supply of potential buyers.

We are then introduced to the second train of thought from TTRTR - that a change of perspective will occur and as a nation we will be happy to rent as an alternative to buying and our benevolent LL's will be happy to subsidise us (for a variety of reasons including substitute pensions, a 5yr plan that will become profitable eventually etc etc)

Now comes the difficult bit; at some point house prices have to fall as the supply of potential buyers becomes ever more limited. Will this new breed of benevolent LL’s stick to the 5yr profit loss scheme as the value of their assets begins to dip, even if prices just stabilise will they be able to hold onto the properties they own as rate rises or job losses occur in the future?

I my be too simplistic in my approach but none of this makes sense to me – can any of you economists explain it to me?

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

your words represent ''professional'' BTL bandwaggon hoppers. or in other words amateur landlords. selling now is the ONLY way they can make money. they bought one year ago, rates have risen 37%, they are now out of profit in cashflow terms. selling up and realising their 20k profit is their only way for them to make money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree with your term BTL bandwaggon hoppers. Estimates BBB up to a hundred thousand in the past 4 years?

IMHO more of realising a 20k loss. Reminds me of a share investor who sold quickly when the market took a nosedive, I got out in time he said just lost 5k never do that again.

Could this be the end of BTL bandwaggon hopping?

The problem with renting is there is no security for long term tenure except in local authority housing, whereas buying a property has that security, as long as you can pay the mortgage.

[Biggest Bear]

nonsense!!! you show yourself up as someone who does'nt have a clue about landlording, your words are a pure contradiction in terms. being a professional landlord, is about making money regardless of where capital values go. being a professional landlord is about NOT BEING A FORCED SELLER, in any downturns and being able to capitalise on rising values over the VERY long term.

        why would a professional landlord sell a property that makes him money? if he sells all his properties that make him money then he would'nt be a professional landlord would he?!!!!!!!!!?

        your words represent ''professional'' BTL bandwaggon hoppers. or in other words amateur landlords. selling now is the ONLY way they can make money. they bought one year ago, rates have risen 37%, they are now out of profit in cashflow terms. selling up and realising their 20k profit is their only way for them to make money.

        amateur BTL v's professional landlord. please learn the difference.

      so why is'nt TTRTR selling his properties? (along with myself) read the income  thread theres your answer 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BBB

It is you that is misinformed, at the present time, a professional landlord would be liquidating assets at a high price in order to have a cash pile ready and available once the market has hit rock bottom.

Sell some of the pups in his portfolio, and there will be a property that is a pup, chuck the money in a high interest account whilst watching the market for distressed or UNPROFESSIONAL Landlords, and then nip in with a cash bid.

A professional landlord will get two possible three additional properties if he plays his cards right, all without touching his other properties or gearing up.

I suggest that it is you who needs to get some education, mind you theres many of your ilk around, I wonder if you'll be so pushy and up front in two/three years down the line when you've lost great big fat chucks of your portfolio.

Hallehujah indeed.....

[BBB]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. you have'nt listened to a word i've said have you?

It is you that is misinformed, at the present time, a professional landlord would be liquidating assets at a high price in order to have a cash pile ready and available once the market has hit rock bottom.

why would he sell an asset that makes him more money than any bank would EVER pay him?if he wanted to expand his portfolio, if any thing he would gear up on the portfolio (not to stupid %'s) and bank the borrowed money, ready to capitalise on any downturn. because he bought savvy in the first instance, this regearing would still keep the original property (the one he has regeared on) CASHFLOW POSITVE BY A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT so please tell me why would he sell and have to pay cgt, and lose his income, when he can get the money out tax free (obviously a loan is tax free.....yes?) defer the cgt for a later date, at a lessor %, and still keep his income.

Sell some of the pups in his portfolio, and there will be a property that is a pup, chuck the money in a high interest account whilst watching the market for distressed or UNPROFESSIONAL Landlords, and then nip in with a cash bid.

A professional landlord will get two possible three additional properties if he plays his cards right, all without touching his other properties or gearing up.

1) a pro would'nt buy a pup in the first place.

2) a cash bid is always an option to a pro anyway. he could raise the money within days from a choice of properties, and lenders.

3) 2 or 3 additional properties? that's where you and a pro would differ. he would set his sights far higher.

I suggest that it is you who needs to get some education

,

when you earn what i earn through property, and sit on the equity i sit on, i will take that statement seriously. until then shut TFU.

look at the end of the day if you want some advice on BTL and how to succeed at it. just ask. stop this pretence of trying to act the property know it all, when all you are after is the correct info.

mind you theres many of your ilk around, I wonder if you'll be so pushy and up front in two/three years down the line when you've lost great big fat chucks of your portfolio.

now there's a highly generalised statement. well backed up with how and why..........not!!!!! look this is only a forum, chill out and control your envy. it takes away your credability and makes you look like a spiteful four year old who wants what his baby brother has, and he has'nt got.

Hallehujah indeed.....

what YOU a christian ?!!?

[Dancing with Bears]

Just thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth!

Was in a meeting on friday with my manager. He spent some time discussing the new MOD 'Haleluja Diagram' for their IT migration. Now I work as a programmer not in change management or whatever, so don't know if this helps, but it does seem to be a proper term. Mind you it could just be that my PM has thrown his gantts out of the pram again!

[fried egg]

Had 2 actually register 4 this 1!

2 things:

1. My management speak book says haleluja maps r used 4 managing multiple projects in order 2 achieve a desired outcome.

2. Havin just don a few scribbles on the bak of my payslip it looks like the idea of BTL takin losses 4 5yrs wud leed to house £ increasing at an ever faster rate. So I guess if TTRTR believes exponentialy increasin £ are unsustainable then he shud be arguin why landlords takin a loss 4 5yrs somehow dosn't leed 2 this!

just some thinkin out loud