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Bars Vs Brittanias, And The Best Value Silver


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Hi all,

I have about 65 grand in cash at the moment (15k savings, and a lucky 50k inheritance). In January I bought a couple of 1oz Britannias just as a small hedge, before my inheritance came through in fact. Now I'm getting a bit nervy about the impending collapse of the Euro and what that could do to the value of my cash, so I'm thinking of buying some more gold. Bullion By Post seem reasonable value and come well recommended, so I've been browsing there. I was thinking of buying myself five Sovs as they're almost the same price per oz as buying one Brittania, and I figure they'll be useful if I need to sell just a small amount of my holding for whatever reason.

I was also thinking of buying a 1oz or even a 50g Umicore bar- what are people's thoughts on Bars vs Brits? Althought the Brittanias I have are nice and impressive, they don't look quite as impressive as I had hoped and so I thought a 50g bar might be a nice thing to play with before I stash it! Interested in your thoughts. As I say this is just a little hedge for me, my medium term plan is to try and grow the cash to about 100k, and then buy a nice house somewhere outside of London for cash, and then take it fairly easy (I have a PCV licence so I can reasonably expect to get a job as a bus driver or similar without too much bother wherever I go). 5oz-ish of gold would take the value of my holding to just under 10% of my assets. If there's a hyperinflation though, that might be enough to allow me to keep pace with everyone else!

I'm also interested in getting some silver, since it seems undervalued vs gold looking at long term ratios, and because I'm enjoying the conspiracy theories about JP Morgan being in a huge and dangerous short position, and would like to profit monetarily as well as spiritually if they turn out to be true! The trouble is that silver bars attract VAT. I'm sure that Silver Brittanias were listed as being VAT free on BBP yesterday, but they're not today, and nor should they be from my googling, so I guess it was a mistake. Even without the VAT they seem to sell for a far larger premium over the spot price that gold Brits, which I guess is because of the proportionally higher cost of minting them.

I've heard talk of buying silver from Germany at only 7% vat? Does anyone have any advice on how to go about it? And should I bother? I guess I'd be looking to buy 500g or a kilo just to get some exposure.

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Sovereigns and other British legal currency coins are CGT free which is something to bear in mind when comparing them to Krugerrands etc ;)

I would also check out these for buying:

Gold: http://www.hattongardenmetals.com/gold-coins.aspx and http://elminvestments.co.uk/

Silver: http://www.coininvestdirect.com/

Some day you will want to sell some of your stash before the end of days lol and I can highly recommend Coininvestdirect.com as despite mailing high value coins (Special Delivery with upto £2500 per packet) being nerve racking for me they were very professional and offered the best prices by miles.

Edited by GeordieAndy
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Hi all,

I have about 65 grand in cash at the moment (15k savings, and a lucky 50k inheritance). In January I bought a couple of 1oz Britannias just as a small hedge, before my inheritance came through in fact. Now I'm getting a bit nervy about the impending collapse of the Euro and what that could do to the value of my cash, so I'm thinking of buying some more gold. Bullion By Post seem reasonable value and come well recommended, so I've been browsing there. I was thinking of buying myself five Sovs as they're almost the same price per oz as buying one Brittania, and I figure they'll be useful if I need to sell just a small amount of my holding for whatever reason.

I was also thinking of buying a 1oz or even a 50g Umicore bar- what are people's thoughts on Bars vs Brits? Althought the Brittanias I have are nice and impressive, they don't look quite as impressive as I had hoped and so I thought a 50g bar might be a nice thing to play with before I stash it! Interested in your thoughts. As I say this is just a little hedge for me, my medium term plan is to try and grow the cash to about 100k, and then buy a nice house somewhere outside of London for cash, and then take it fairly easy (I have a PCV licence so I can reasonably expect to get a job as a bus driver or similar without too much bother wherever I go). 5oz-ish of gold would take the value of my holding to just under 10% of my assets. If there's a hyperinflation though, that might be enough to allow me to keep pace with everyone else!

I'm also interested in getting some silver, since it seems undervalued vs gold looking at long term ratios, and because I'm enjoying the conspiracy theories about JP Morgan being in a huge and dangerous short position, and would like to profit monetarily as well as spiritually if they turn out to be true! The trouble is that silver bars attract VAT. I'm sure that Silver Brittanias were listed as being VAT free on BBP yesterday, but they're not today, and nor should they be from my googling, so I guess it was a mistake. Even without the VAT they seem to sell for a far larger premium over the spot price that gold Brits, which I guess is because of the proportionally higher cost of minting them.

I've heard talk of buying silver from Germany at only 7% vat? Does anyone have any advice on how to go about it? And should I bother? I guess I'd be looking to buy 500g or a kilo just to get some exposure.

Assuming you live in the UK, there is no good reason to buy physical gold for personal possession in any form other than Britannias or sovs, as these are (currently) capital gains free, whilst capital gains tax is due on all other forms of gold.

If you want lower spreads and aren't fussed about physically holding gold, then bullionvault.com isn't bad. The costs of transactions and holding are about as low as you can get and (at least ostensibly) the gold is yours, held in bailment, rather than you being a creditor, as is the case for most other pm investment funds/banks etc.

As for silver, I'd just buy it and hold it at bullionvault - it is VAT free there, the spreads are very low and the holding costs are low. VAT on silver just makes it untenable to buy and hold physical in Europe. (In Australia there is no GST (i.e. VAT) on silver, so we have quite a few kilos of the stuff, but in Europe it just made no sense to hold it that way.)

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I'm really happy that you are not going to blow all your inheritance on a sports car.

I think in your situation... I would go 50/50 on Gold and Silver.

Buying British coins is a sensible thing to do, however you can always swap in the future.

A couple of options would be paying a courier to pick up from coinsinvestdirect @ 7% tax or flying over to gurnsey mint.

I personally have paid High tax on all mine because I buy every month. If I had a lump some like you.... I would go for the 7% legal loop hole.

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The cheapest type of gold and silver is Bars or Rounds but trying to sell a bar in the future will be slow and difficult.

Coins have added collectors value.

Coins are easy to sell or trade.

(no spell checker)

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The cheapest type of gold and silver is Bars or Rounds but trying to sell a bar in the future will be slow and difficult.

Coins have added collectors value.

Coins are easy to sell or trade.

(no spell checker)

I would only buy physical, if you use bullionvault or any ETF to hold it you are still relying on banksters and the financial system. PHYSICAL ONLY!

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I had forgotten about CGT. Sovs and Brits it is then. As for the silver I'm not sure I want to buy enough to make flying out or paying a courier worthwhile- though I like the idea of flying out with a suitcase full of cash and flying back with a big bag 'o booty! :lol: . My brother travels for business quite regularly, I'll ask him if he's going to Germany any time soon.

Thanks for the help all, I'll shop around between the dealers listed.

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TW, I forgot to say that I'm enough of a TFH-er to want the metal in my hands, tho I daresay Bullionvault would be the most sensible way to hold silver.

Oh, and Asheron, I did buy a sportscar I'm afraid- a 21 year old MX-5 with a leaky roof for 590 quid! :lol:

Edited by Rave
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If you are in the market for some silver and also something nice to play with.

May I recommend a 1kg silver Australia 30 AUD Koala 2011 1 kilo silver.

7% VAT

465_0.jpg

851.81 euros

See http://www.vatea.de/Silvercoins/1-Kg-and-more:::56_69.html

I have ordered from these guys without any problem. They send via tracked DHL.

Another interesting item is 1kg silver Rwanda 1000 RWF Rhino

7% vat inc.

438_0.jpg

847,39 EUR 7 % VAT incl. excl. Shipping costs

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Oh and by the way buying I would have thought that buying Silver at 7% VAT in Germany and then bringing it into the country is rather dodgy for larger amounts. It's not going to be long before HMRC take action, and the first thing they will do is demand the list of UK clients buying large amounts of Silver, since carousel fraud is currently one of the fastest growing frauds (along with mandate fraud) and you will end up getting stung for the additional VAT or alternatively prosecuted. The re-selling of silver on ebay (i.e. the VAT issue) is currently a grey area and I think some people will be royally fecked when HMRC decides to have a sniff around. You have been warned...

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If you are in the market for some silver and also something nice to play with.

May I recommend a 1kg silver Australia 30 AUD Koala 2011 1 kilo silver.

7% VAT

851.81 euros

See http://www.vatea.de/...re:::56_69.html

I have ordered from these guys without any problem. They send via tracked DHL.

Another interesting item is 1kg silver Rwanda 1000 RWF Rhino

7% vat inc.

847,39 EUR 7 % VAT incl. excl. Shipping costs

For beauty in metallic form you can't beat Maples:

all_that_glisters.jpg

Although the VAT is a bitch, you'd make it back if you sell on ebay or similar. Although this is only good for smaller quantities, or larger amounts over a longer period of time. Otherwise, sovs and the like are best, unless you think there's more upside in silver at current prices.

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...

Otherwise, sovs and the like are best, unless you think there's more upside in silver at current prices.

I was 2:1 Gold to Silver but am now 100% silver in terms of my 'other' investments due to needing some cash for a house deposit (I know!) . My reasoning was that I think it's a lot easier to imagine silver increasing by 50%+ again (to $40+ Oz) than seeing Gold go past all time highs through to $2500+ Oz (about 50% gain) in the same time period but obviously you would need to make sure you didn't go above your CGT limits etc when selling again :blink:

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Oh and by the way buying I would have thought that buying Silver at 7% VAT in Germany and then bringing it into the country is rather dodgy for larger amounts. It's not going to be long before HMRC take action, and the first thing they will do is demand the list of UK clients buying large amounts of Silver, since carousel fraud is currently one of the fastest growing frauds (along with mandate fraud) and you will end up getting stung for the additional VAT or alternatively prosecuted. The re-selling of silver on ebay (i.e. the VAT issue) is currently a grey area and I think some people will be royally fecked when HMRC decides to have a sniff around. You have been warned...

Don't be silly. Unless we leave the European Community HMRC cannot change the treaty. Free trade with the EC is a fundamental principle. The purchase of duty and VAT paid goods within a sovereign state in the EU means that the goods then go into free circulation which means there is no VAT to pay unless the seller is a VAT registered person selling them in the course of business.

Of course if someone buys some with the intention of reselling them then that is a trade and liable for income tax and VAT if the registration threshold is exceeded.

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The cheapest type of gold and silver is Bars or Rounds but trying to sell a bar in the future will be slow and difficult.

Coins have added collectors value.

Coins are easy to sell or trade.

Yes, I have been told this many times, bars are nice to have, get a couple for the designs etc. but coins are easier to sell and have a slightly higher resale value, esp in gold; so I am with those who say Britannias or Sovereigns for gold. For silver, get a mixture of bars and coins.

Don't be silly. Unless we leave the European Community HMRC cannot change the treaty. Free trade with the EC is a fundamental principle. The purchase of duty and VAT paid goods within a sovereign state in the EU means that the goods then go into free circulation which means there is no VAT to pay unless the seller is a VAT registered person selling them in the course of business.

Of course if someone buys some with the intention of reselling them then that is a trade and liable for income tax and VAT if the registration threshold is exceeded.

This is correct. The HMRC don't like it, but that's tough. Once you are inside the rules, they have to play by them, too. I know they still are trying it on with ciggies and beer. The limits on their own website are "guidelines", but they try to make out those are absolute limits, they're not. You just have to show a sensible reason why you could consume X amount of booze, such as a wedding booking. There would be no such justification needed for investment purposes.

There's no VAT on silver or Palladium in Guernsey, as long as you buy it there, holding it there means no VAT until importation takes place. Speaking of Palladium, why don't you get a little of that too? The 7% issue is excellent, I know a number of folks who have done that.

At the moment, buy physical. Unless you are investing millions or are intending to "trade" the G/S price differential, then we are entering difficult times, and governments are getting very dictatorial. Don't buy paper, even if it's allocated. Those are the only stocks likely to be "confiscated" (that's STOLEN for any politicians reading this, you Bas****s) as it's easy to announce a Bank Holiday.

FWIW, I think you are getting into the market just in time. I can't think of anything but farmland that would be a safer or better bet.

Edited by Old Nis
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Good shout on getting into pm.

Silver would be my preference, I have a modest few bars and a couple of tubes of maples just in case.

The next time I'm saving or investing for the future I'm going to be looking for something that will always be in demand, non perishable, may become rarer, is easy to sell or trade, will go up in value ( and history shows this), non traceable....

I'm thinking alcohol, or specifically a decent quantity of fine whiskey!

I've also considered tobacco, a few grands worth will easily fit into a small suit case and if it ever gets banned I'll be laughing!

Ps don't forget to enjoy your inheritance, buying a future classic car could serv both purposes... When I was young you could pick up a RS500 cosworth for a couple of grand, a good one nowadays will set you back £30k. Lancier delta intergarales, metro 6r4, audi 80 Quattro turbos all went the sme way too. Look at getting standard lw mileage example of maybe the rear engined Renault Clio, ford escort cosworth etc...

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Oh and by the way buying I would have thought that buying Silver at 7% VAT in Germany and then bringing it into the country is rather dodgy for larger amounts. It's not going to be long before HMRC take action, and the first thing they will do is demand the list of UK clients buying large amounts of Silver, since carousel fraud is currently one of the fastest growing frauds (along with mandate fraud) and you will end up getting stung for the additional VAT or alternatively prosecuted. The re-selling of silver on ebay (i.e. the VAT issue) is currently a grey area and I think some people will be royally fecked when HMRC decides to have a sniff around. You have been warned...

I can't see what the HMRC could do, if you paid the German tax, no matter how much you buy, if they did try to be difficult, they would lose in court.

Unless your turnover is more £77,000 in a year, then there is no problem with VAT and then there is the question of one being in business as a profession, even if you went over that limit.

I don't think ebay would be the way to sell any large amount of silver anyway, far too much hassle IMO. I would take down to the established and trusted bullion dealers.

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Good shout on getting into pm.

Silver would be my preference, I have a modest few bars and a couple of tubes of maples just in case.

The next time I'm saving or investing for the future I'm going to be looking for something that will always be in demand, non perishable, may become rarer, is easy to sell or trade, will go up in value ( and history shows this), non traceable....

I'm thinking alcohol, or specifically a decent quantity of fine whiskey!

I've also considered tobacco, a few grands worth will easily fit into a small suit case and if it ever gets banned I'll be laughing!

Ps don't forget to enjoy your inheritance, buying a future classic car could serv both purposes... When I was young you could pick up a RS500 cosworth for a couple of grand, a good one nowadays will set you back £30k. Lancier delta intergarales, metro 6r4, audi 80 Quattro turbos all went the sme way too. Look at getting standard lw mileage example of maybe the rear engined Renault Clio, ford escort cosworth etc...

I think you will find this article which appeared in the Telegraph last year interesting. They do compare certain cars against gold's top as the bench mark, as many do and don't mention 1971 and gold's 45 fold increase to date.

Classic cars: a better investment than gold

Where should the rich invest their money? In classic cars, according to a new index.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/classiccars/8841453/Classic-cars-a-better-investment-than-gold.html

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Classic cars: a better investment than gold

Where should the rich invest their money? In classic cars, according to a new index.

Not for mere mortals like me.

I've occasionally toyed with the idea of a "classic car", although I'd love one it's not feasible as an investment. A hobby yes, but it will be difficult to get a return on the investment. Maybe if you're a dealer.

First I haven't got a climate controlled environment to keep one in.

Secondly I'd find it difficult to make the time to carry out all the routine tasks needed to keep it in good condition: up on blocks wheels rotated, battery charged, engine turned over, etc.

Third I'd be petrified to drive it on the road, stone chips, the worry of someone colliding with it, parking it in case it someone dinged it when they opened their car door next to it, a supermarket trolley pushed into it.

The costs of restoration are phenomenal. Most everyday classics that have been restored will have cost their owners. They won't be in profit at all. The Telegraph article made no mention of the costs involved in restoring or maintaining a classic. I'd guess that these costs come to far more than the percentage charged by financial advisors for their services in looking after your investment.

Nice dream, not reality.

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