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Edited, I think I misunderstood you, I said cost neutral, they are being paid in advance for the shifting the work to another time, its not extra work, but its not less work so no loss in pay.

No, you said "own time" initially which is what I take issue with.

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It's not their own time, it's the public's time if they are getting paid. Talk about spin.

When you have lost the NHS you will look back and realise how lucky we were. Dont knock the Doctors who are being used as a smoke screen for the real objectives which are privatisation. Most of these Doctors would be better off financially under privatisation and some are fighting against it, many doctors left the country in decades gone by when NHS pay was poor compared to private healthcare abroad.

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Provided the part in bold is realistic, what you have written (in isolation and at face value) seems reasonable.

As someone completely ignorant on this subject could you tell me what the strike is all about?

As I said above, quite simply that the deal is only 4 years old. The scheme is in great shape. We understood the need for public sector reform and felt it best to just bite the bullet. Before all this started we urged Hutton in our formal evidence to review the schemes together to ensure equity across the public sector. This, he said was too complicated.So we now have a situation where judges will be paying 1.28% for a 20th accrual 50% final salary scheme, desk driving policeman can retire at 50. But surgeons etc pay nearly 15% for a 60ths scheme and cant retire until they are 68 (probably 70 by the time I get there).

We feel that our scheme is reformed

Sustainable

Good value for money

funded entirely by contributions

promise that all increases will be met from scheme members

Agreed in 2008 an ratified for the above in 2011

So the NHS pension changes are an opportunistic theft.

Our aim is for the government to sit down and have real negotiation and to put the damn effort in to providing equity across the public sector.

The 'strike' is not really a strike. We are seeing emergency and urgent patients only for 1 day. Most hospital work fits that anyway and because most hospital doctors can't handle being idle we have mostly booked many more of these cases to make up for the cancelled ones.

Hospital doctors are furious however and if this warning shot doesn't work it may well be escalated.

Cheers (am I allowed to say that?)

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When you have lost the NHS you will look back and realise how lucky we were. Dont knock the Doctors who are being used as a smoke screen for the real objectives which are privatisation. Most of these Doctors would be better off financially under privatisation and some are fighting against it, many doctors left the country in decades gone by when NHS pay was poor compared to private healthcare abroad.

While I'm sceptical of the privatisation of the NHS, I'm not sure that's really the full story either.

I'm not sure what's being pushed through to upset the doctors so much, but I expect it is a slightly underhand way of clawing back some of the overspend in the area following the previous administration.

Case in point.. [borrowed from the excellent market oracle]

NHS-GP-Pay.gif

nhs-gp-mp-pay-comparison.gif

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When you have lost the NHS you will look back and realise how lucky we were. Dont knock the Doctors who are being used as a smoke screen for the real objectives which are privatisation. Most of these Doctors would be better off financially under privatisation and some are fighting against it, many doctors left the country in decades gone by when NHS pay was poor compared to private healthcare abroad.

There is a list at the DoH which last time I heard had 28 hospitals that they wanted to privatise. The feedback from private providers is that they are happy to take over those hospitals and the others when the NHS pension scheme and national pay have gone. I heard this 3 years ago and have watched the news unfold since. This is about the privatisation of the NHS as much as about a great chance to bully more cash back from healthcare workers.

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While I'm sceptical of the privatisation of the NHS, I'm not sure that's really the full story either.

I'm not sure what's being pushed through to upset the doctors so much, but I expect it is a slightly underhand way of clawing back some of the overspend in the area following the previous administration.

Case in point.. [borrowed from the excellent market oracle]

NHS-GP-Pay.gif

nhs-gp-mp-pay-comparison.gif

Can you do the same for consultants, GP's have a different scheme from consultants, nurses etc. I agree with this as a part motivation! Most doctors however are much more worried about their pension than their salary so if you wanted to wind them up its certainly the right button.

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This sickens me. The taxpayer pays 4 out of every 5 pounds for these leeches pensions, even though they are earning £80-£120k a year.

Laughable nonsense that most people will think is disgraceful.

Have you ever got a GP to do a home visit? :rolleyes:

If you are so ill you can`t attend the surgery for an appointment in 2 days time then you should call an Ambulance and clutter up A&E. :unsure:

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Can you do the same for consultants, GP's have a different scheme from consultants, nurses etc. I agree with this as a part motivation! Most doctors however are much more worried about their pension than their salary so if you wanted to wind them up its certainly the right button.

I am afraid I don't.. I'm a lowly armchair enthusiast armed with nothing more than google.

I did find this one (below) about senior execs, though if you say consultants (and possibly even nurses and care workers as well) are getting the short end of the stick I would probably believe you.. particularly if you could find something similar chart/graph wise to back it up.

I wasn't trying to have a dig with my charts.. simply speculating on the motivation. It might be that this (pensions) is the simplest weapon at their disposal, while also being a blunt one lacking the precision to pick out the more or less deserving. If you are unfairly affected relative to your peers, then you have my sympathy. When graphs like the previous ones are what the public see, it is easy to understand the widespread lack of sympathy for the cause. If consultant pay has bucked the trend (or even fallen relative to other professions) perhaps this is something the BMA should focus on and request special dispensation for those worst affected by the action? Just a thought.

_47631495_nhs_exec_salary466.gif

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25% of my salary is withheld and used to pay existing NHS pensioners. this works so well that after the pensioners have been paid there is £2billion left over that the treasury just wastes (sorry spends).

You don't believe the spin on house prices, don't accept the spin on this.

Copy and paste from an NHS Pension briefing pack

What about the NHS Pension Scheme’s ‘surplus’?

-The NHS Pension Scheme is unfunded (i.e. there is no ‘pot’ of money set aside from which to pay pensions) and the Government pays pensions from public finances.

-There is a positive balance in the current year as the contributions made by scheme members and employers are more than the cost of the benefits being paid out to retired members.

-The scheme does however need to account for pension promises that current members are currently building, to be paid when they retire.

-The NHS employs significantly more staff that it did in the 1990s and therefore more pension promises are being built. With the existing contribution structure, the current ‘surplus’ is set to shortly disappear.

-A ‘surplus’ at any given point in time does therefore not guarantee the long term affordability of the scheme. This is similar to having a positive balance on your current account at the start of the month whilst knowing that you have bills to pay during the month.

I'm not disagreeing with you but let's keep the facts relevant?

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Doctors get paid enough to make their own private provision for their pensions. Why should they continue to leach from the public purse when they are no longer handing out prescriptions for useless potions. The answer to that one is that they are paid off by the government to keep them from speaking out against the mafia like grip that pharmaceutical and other "healthcare" industries have on the UK and its population of guinea pigs.

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As someone completely ignorant on this subject could you tell me what the strike is all about?

The "strike" (technically it's not a strike; I'll explain later) is about several changes to the pension scheme.

1. The NHS pension scheme was renegotiated in 2008, and provided an option to switch to the new scheme. This substantially increased pension contributions, and raised the retirement age from 60 to 65. In return for this, there was a slight increase in annual pension income (but if a staff member chose to retire "early" at 60, they would see about a 25% cut in pension income compared to the 1995 scheme).

2. The treasury at the time, stated that this change would ensure that the NHS pension scheme was sustainable for the foreseeable future.

3. The current proposal sees the contributions increased substantially again, and the retirement age raised to 68. Again, there is an increase in annual benefit (and a big decrease if "early" retirement is taken). Unlike the 2008, the change to this scheme is mandatory (except for those due to retire in the next couple of years).

4. As an example, a young consultant on the old scheme would have expected to retire at 60, and receive an annual pension of around £45k. Now, they would be expected to retire at 68, while receiving £55k. On the old scheme, they would have been contributing about £500 pcm, which will increase to about £1200 pcm (but will rise with salary/hours; A senior consultant on a 60 hour/week contract could easily be paying £2000 pcm in pension contributions).

There are several causes of grievance:

1. The fact that up till last year, the government were saying that the 2008 agreement was sustainable and in profit. Yet, late last year, the government ignored the treasury and decided to review the NHS pension arrangements, at the same time as other public sector pension arrangements (some of which are accepted to be grossly unsustainable).

2. The pensionable age has been increased rapidly - in effect, the pensionable age has been increased by 3 years since 2008 - such that staff are barely any closer to retirement now, than they were at the time of the 2008 negotiation.

3. Pension contributions are being dramatically increased (more than doubled) - in effect a reduction in take-home pay of £100/week or more.

4. No clear explanation by the government as to why other public sector pension schemes are getting less aggressive changes, despite the perception that these schemes are patently unsustainable, or at least, less sustainable than the NHS scheme.

5. No indication from the government that they won't do the same thing again in 3 years time.

---

The BMA have called for this "strike" - but it is not technically strike, as their guidance is that doctors attend work. The guidance is that doctors only do "urgent" work (e.g. treat hospital patients, see clinic patients if they have a serious complaint, etc.), but that they refrain from non-urgent work (e.g. routine follow-up clinic appointments, planned surgical cases where there is no medical urgency for treatment).

There's a bit of a grey area as far as paperwork and non-care work goes. The BMA have suggested that doctors refrain from doing this. Many doctors have taken the pragmatic view, that the paperwork won't be going away, and will still need to be done - so rather than sit around scratching their **** and drinking tea, they can do the paperwork and avoid having to come in on Saturday to do it. Similarly, a lot of doctors have taken the view that non-care work such as scientific research work, lecture preparation, etc. can be swapped with direct-care work (so that the non-care work gets done on "strike" day, and the care work gets done in place of the normal research session, etc.).

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I think that's the job of the "scum" boy, no?

Mods - maybe merge with the other thread which has a lot of this discussion already taken care of?

no dont bloody merge. its today this is happening so need a fresh thread for updates, not to have to read through hundreds of posts to get to anything fresh.

anyone needing more indepth can go read the other thread first.

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I think the worst thing is they still get paid for the strike day.

If what they contractually agreed to when they started work is being taken away then who could blame them?

All doctors will be at work on strike day, seeing emergencies only.

Do you think public sector workers should just agree to any pension changes without a fight?

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If doctors didn't do such a good job at making us all live longer then we wouldn't have this pension crisis.

The UK population owe's it health and longevity to the water companies (fresh water in the tap; wastes away), Tesco (putting cheap food on the table) and the likes of Alexander Fleming (anti-biotics) and that french bloke (vaccines) i.e. basic primary medicine.

The contribution of GPs and the NHS is low at best, or quite damaging - the number of people I know who've come out of hospital in a worse state than they went in is qute high. The damage caused by incompetent GPs prescribing quite dangerous combinations of drugs becase they have not checked current prescription is very.

The GP system does not have a system where the crap ones are sacked.

Ditto hospital - consultants, nurses, surgeons.

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No one's said it but our old favourite Gorddy was a significant contributor to this mess.

All that rethoric about 'hard working doctors and nurses' then he doubles GP wages in 2005-ish.

The fundemental problem is the non-funding of pensions.

You want a public service? FIne then pay the full amount that year - salary plus fully funded pension.

DOn;t rely on the magic fairies i.e. the kids of 2060 to somehow be 5x more productive than the people of 1970-2010 to magically fix the gap.

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Do you think public sector workers should just agree to any pension changes without a fight?

Generally no, no one wants to take change lying down.

We're entering a painful new world. Teachers, civil servants - bin men, Oil Tanker drivers all have been on strike lately. I'm expecting more.

Edited by MrTReturns

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Fair play to them B).

Better and bigger injustices to argue about than helping to win the race to the bottom. Don't be distracted, prioritise and target the real villans. At least doctors do good things for society.

IIRC UK doctors are amongst the highest paid in the world. If they earned less individually, we could have more doctors, and more modern medical equipment, lab tests, scans, etc. UK doctors leech resources from the NHS, crowding out all other areas.

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Very often, but BMA are (arguably, and I would argue) very harmful to our society.

+ 1

Nothing to do with how technology has changed working conditions and scientific researchers then?

+ 1

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Fair play to them B).

Better and bigger injustices to argue about than helping to win the race to the bottom. Don't be distracted, prioritise and target the real villans. At least doctors do good things for society.

IIRC UK doctors are amongst the highest paid in the world. If they earned less individually, we could have more doctors, and more modern medical equipment, lab tests, scans, etc. UK doctors leech resources from the NHS, crowding out all other areas.

The current government want to put them in charge of the spending budget also! :blink:

Like they have the spare time for managing that between appointments, what could go wrong?

"Family doctors will have the responsibility for spending £70billion rather than NHS managers"...

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Might I contribute a fact or two?

Doctors are paid by the state. !00% of our earnings are from taxpayers.

Thank you!

Many public sector employees have a problem understanding or accepting that. Many (most?) think that "they also pay taxes". :rolleyes:

And to avoid misunderstandings, I think education and health are the most important, valuable, and socially useful activities in a country. I'm just pointing out that they don't actually pay taxes, in NET terms.

We recognised that the country was stuffed in 2008 and sat down with the politicians, treasury actuaries and all the health unions and renogotiated the NHS pension scheme (which we are in).

We (doctors, nurses, porters etc.) accepted a 40% increase in our contributions. A retirement age increase to 65. And a very important deal that if the scheme ever came out of the black that only the members would contribute the extra cash needed.

This was reviewed in last year by the all party public accounts committee and said to represent good value for the tax payer and 'sustainable into the future'.

25% of my salary is withheld and used to pay existing NHS pensioners. this works so well that after the pensioners have been paid there is £2billion left over that the treasury just wastes (sorry spends).

You don't believe the spin on house prices, don't accept the spin on this.

You may be having a relapse there. Remember, it's all taxpayers' money.

I think it's better if we/you think in terms of take home pay whilst in work, and pension afterwards.

That's what the taxpayers pay you. You don't pay for anything.

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While I'm sceptical of the privatisation of the NHS, I'm not sure that's really the full story either.

I'm not sure what's being pushed through to upset the doctors so much, but I expect it is a slightly underhand way of clawing back some of the overspend in the area following the previous administration.

Case in point.. [borrowed from the excellent market oracle]

NHS-GP-Pay.gif

nhs-gp-mp-pay-comparison.gif

+ 1

Great post.

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  • 277 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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