Proportion Of All Homes Delivered By Self Build, By Country

[7upfree]

Not really. My point throughout is that - excluding land - it would cost only around £1,000/sq.m to have a house build for you.

This table shows that using a "builder plus subbies" (no DIY there), to build a medium size, two storey house, in the South-East (my case/plans/wishes/hope), it would cost £827/sq.m for a "standard" finish level, or £1001/sq.m for a good finish level.

7up was saying that - also excluding land - it would cost £1,400/sq.m.

Huge difference there.

.

What about architects, engineers, roads, sewers, legal fees, you know all of those things that you like to pretend are not really costs. On the link, did you see the bit where it said add 15% for external works... Still you know better that Barratt, BCIS, etc given your vast knowledge and understanding of this matter. Never mind building a house, when are you starting the contracting business and I will gladly find you some housebuilding work!?

[Tired of Waiting]

Opportunity cost?

I never said i was going to build it myself! That is now how you do it! In that table, I would go "builder plus subbies".

How do you propose to build for less than £1000m2?

"less than"?

Did I say that? I think I always say around £1,000. Though that table does include plenty of circumstances where the price can be lower than £1,000.

But even though, I really don't remember saying "less" than £1,000.

This is important, because the root cause of my negative feelings about you is that I have the impression that you keep distorting facts.

Have you read the link yet and looked at the "Don't Forget" section? I can't quite work out why it would matter than I am involved in the construction sector - perhaps speaking about something I know something about weakens my position in your upside down world. As it happens, I make more money when there is less building going on, so that rather nullifies the vested interest argument. What do you do for a living so I can assess the relative merits of what you have to say on this subject?

Completely unrelated to building. My interest on the subject is that we (a couple), would like to buy a simple plot and build a simple house. We can easily afford land and building costs - but not the huge planning gain caused by the critical shortage caused by the planning system.

What you are really saying that if you do more of the work yourself you will save money. Correct but unrealistic for many people. And then there's opportunity cost - but you don't really want to deal with that, do you? (...)

Nope. Again: "builder plus subbies"!

What about architects, engineers, roads, sewers, legal fees, you know all of those things that you like to pretend are not really costs. On the link, did you see the bit where it said add 15% for external works... Still you know better that Barratt, BCIS, etc given your vast knowledge and understanding of this matter. Never mind building a house, when are you starting the contracting business and I will gladly find you some housebuilding work!?

I am quite happy to buy a ready and serviced plot. I can pay a fair price for it. £20k? Great. £30k? OK. £50k? You are pushing, but we would make an effort, and go for it. But above that it's becoming exploitation! And small simple plots in the southern half of England go for over £100k! This is fecking robbery! Don't you agree??!!

.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Tired of Waiting

[opt_out]

This thread is now starting to depress me. I'm usually a post peak oil doom-monger, but housing is one of the few areas that I thought there was a possible solution.

How about we all agree on: land + £100k structure +£25k services and regulatory burden.

Then we can argue about which of those will be going up and which down in future

[Tired of Waiting]

Or by analogy with Germany where that kind of competitive building market is the norm.

Regardless of whether people on average incomes could afford (high quality) new property, it's indisputable that increasing the supply of desirable property will reduce competition for the piles of bricks which are already there, and this will help make housing more affordable.

Exactly!

The government doesn't need to manufacture subsidised brand new used cars, do they?

[Guest]

Fair enough.

But let's say most of these fields do indeed get built on, and it's still not enough?

What then?! Where does the sprawl end? Maybe we should utilise other parts of the country, and ease the South East burden... However the event horizon that is Watford will always stop that from ever happening.

Have you seen the huge expanses of empty fields in those maps? If we used all of that we'd be talking about hundreds of millions of houses! It's not a genuine concern, it's a scare tactic.

[Guest]

Exactly!

The government doesn't need to manufacture subsidised brand new used cars, do they?

Indeed, me deciding to build a 4br house for my family reduces the demand in the used house market by 1, do that x tens or hundreds of thousands and the impact would be very observable on prices.

[opt_out]

Exactly!

The government doesn't need to manufacture subsidised brand new used cars, do they?

whether or not they needed to is debatable. But the Govt did subsidise new cars.

[Tired of Waiting]

This thread is now starting to depress me. I'm usually a post peak oil doom-monger, but housing is one of the few areas that I thought there was a possible solution.

How about we all agree on: land + £100k structure +£25k services and regulatory burden.

Then we can argue about which of those will be going up and which down in future

I know exactly what you mean. The housing crisis would be very easy to solve - if we didn't have so many vested interests against it. And that includes most of the property owners, sadly. And they are the majority.

Yes, land without PP costs only some £10k/acre, and you can easily have 10 plots there, plus roads.

IIRC I think most people agree that it would cost some £20-30k to build the access road + services.

And it should cost around £1,000/sq.m. to build a house, depending on all the factors listed on that table, of course. In my case, it would probably be around £1k, for the reasons I listed before. (South-east, mid-size, 2 storey, etc.)

In Germany Councils buy land, cheaply, service it, and sell plots. Simple.

But here? No-o...

Depressing really.

Perhaps one of the deepest reason is a kind of cultural/psychological belief most people have here that only a large company or "the Council" can deliver homes. Bit "peasanty" really.

Very depressing.

[Tired of Waiting]

Have you seen the huge expanses of empty fields in those maps? If we used all of that we'd be talking about hundreds of millions of houses!

+ 1

It's not a genuine concern,

+ 1

it's a scare tactic.

Maybe.

I don't get him.

[opt_out]

Perhaps one of the deepest reason is a kind of cultural/psychological belief most people have here that only a large company or "the Council" can deliver homes. Bit "peasanty" really.

And generally an overestimation of how efficient there own industry is (7upfree?).

[Tired of Waiting]

And generally an overestimation of how efficient there own industry is (7upfree?).

Yes, I think that could be another reason as well.

[7upfree]

I never said i was going to build it myself! That is now how you do it! In that table, I would go "builder plus subbies".

"less than"?

Did I say that? I think I always say around £1,000. Though that table does include plenty of circumstances where the price can be lower than £1,000.

But even though, I really don't remember saying "less" than £1,000.

This is important, because the root cause of my negative feelings about you is that I have the impression that you keep distorting facts.

Completely unrelated to building. My interest on the subject is that we (a couple), would like to buy a simple plot and build a simple house. We can easily afford land and building costs - but not the huge planning gain caused by the critical shortage caused by the planning system.

Nope. Again: "builder plus subbies"!

I am quite happy to buy a ready and serviced plot. I can pay a fair price for it. £20k? Great. £30k? OK. £50k? You are pushing, but we would make an effort, and go for it. But above that it's becoming exploitation! And small simple plots in the southern half of England go for over £100k! This is fecking robbery! Don't you agree??!!

.

Let's try and go back to the start here. You quoted your build costs from Homebuilding and Rennovation Magazine. You only use the table and you largely ignore the comments because in your world they don't apply. Also, opportunity cost is not an issue for you since you are still using Builder and sub-contractor (Option C I thing).

The table

Here's what Option C entails:-

Build Route C: Building using a main contractor or package supplier to complete the structure to a weathertight stage, with the remaining work being under­taken by subcontractors with most materials purchased by self-builder direct from suppliers.

So that means you have to buy the materials and co-ordinate the subs. Best of luck doing that. Are you going to be onsite every day to take deliveries or are you going to take the chance of the subs taking care of this issue. Also, you need to coordinate the subs - a vast source of dispute resolution in the construction industry. Still think there is no opportunity cost with this issue?!

From the table, you are looking at Small SE. Standard is £1060m2 and good is £1227m2.

What else do you need to consider (ie not included in the above) - again from the Don't Forget section:-

Legal Fees: £500-1,000

Stamp Duty and Land Tax: The tax is cur¬rently levied at 1% for land or house purchases valued from £125,001 to £250,000, 3% for plots valued from £250,001 to £500,000 and 4% over £500,000

Topographical Site Survey: Typical cost £350-500

Design Fees: Architects charge 7-15% of the total build cost for a ser¬vice involv¬ing design and supervision. For planning drawings from other sources expect to pay from £2,500-3,500, plus a similar figure for Building Regulations drawings

Structural Engineers’ Fees: £400-500

Planning Application Fees: £335

Building Regulations Fees: £500-1,000

Warranty: Around 1% of contract value

Self-build Insurance: £500-800

Services: Typically £3,500-6,000 total

Demolition Costs: Typically £5,000-10,000

External Works: Around 15% of total build cost

I've scored out the items that you can ignore on a self build plot and assuming we live in your Utopia there will be no planning and building fees. Also, lets assume professional fees are 7% of your build cost. Let's stick the standard build cost of £1060m2

80x1060 = £84,800

Total of costs covered by the "Don't Forget" section (taking the median figure where a range is supplied): £29771

Total Cost - £114,571

Total Cost per sq m - £1432.14

No over-estimation, I'm afraid - just all of the numbers based on your source of information.

As a cross check, I went to the BCIS website and used their re-building calculator. Here are the results:-

Rebuild Calculator Results

Estimate of Rebuilding Cost from BCIS.

The rebuilding cost is estimated to be £127,000 based on the information and assumptions listed below (1).

The property is smaller than the cost models available: in order to calculate a rebuilding cost a larger property has been assumed.

Quality and facilities make a big difference to the rebuilding cost. While the figure above is a reasonable estimate of the likely cost for a good quality house with typical facilities, a basic quality house of the same size with minimal facilities might be rebuilt for £105,000 while an excellent quality house might cost £162,000 to rebuild.

The information we based this estimate on was:

Detached 2 storey house built with brick external walls (2) and tile roof built around 1950 (3). The property is not listed and does not include any special or unusual features.

Postcode ME1.

Gross external floor area: 80m2 (4).

2 bathrooms.

No separate garage.

BCIS has assumed the following:

There is no cellar.

An allowance for external works has been made which might typically comprise drive or hardstanding, paths and patio, walls and fences, drainage. However there can be big differences in the scale and cost. Special or unusual features, such as long boundary walls, swimming pools etc have not been allowed for.

The prices used are for May 2012. This report was generated at 10:09:04 on 02-Jun-2012.

Notes:

(1) This estimate is based on minimal details. If you have a listed property or one with special or unusual features you should obtain professional advice on the rebuilding cost. You may also wish to obtain professional advice to be more certain about the rebuilding cost. A list of chartered surveyors in your area capable of carrying out a rebuilding cost assessment can be found at http://www.rics.org/RICSservices/Findasurveyor.

(2) Brick external walls include brick faced timber framed houses and cement rendered walls.

(3) It is assumed that the property is built in a style typical of its age.

(4) The Gross External Floor Area is the area of all floors added together measured from the outside.

BCIS is the Building Cost Information Service of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. For further details please visit http://www.bcis.co.uk.

This report copyright RICS 2012.

You can knock something off for demolition which is included in the above costs.

Notes

a. The costs are based on typical design and specification for the period. The changes in specification and design occurred gradually, rather than at specific dates. No guidance is available on bungalows prior to 1840, purpose built flats prior to 1946 or conversion flats after 1945.

b. The rebuilding costs also include an allowance for full central heating costs, demolition and site clearance costs, architects' and surveyors' fees, and one half of the cost of rebuilding party walls in both terraced and semi-detached houses.

c. Costs are based on houses or flats of an average quality finish and might need adjusting. A range is given to indicate the possible variation in rebuilding cost because of quality and features. The figures given allow for double glazing. If your house is of higher quality with, for example, a luxury kitchen and sanitary fittings, floor and wall finishes, your final figure may need to be towards the upper end of the range shown. Likewise difficult ground conditions requiring special foundations will tend to increase costs.

d. Building costs in Northern Ireland are considerably lower than in the rest of the UK but they are affected by particular local conditions and seeking local advice is recommended.

So there you have it - no made up figures, just facts.

You said that you had negative feelings about me. These are not reciprocated - I actually feel sorry for you and generally wish you well. You seem like a well intentioned, decent chap who will simply never achieve his ambitions unless he faces up to the likely cost of building a house. You have simply reached a conclusion that you hope is true (that you can build for £1000m2)and then tried to manipulate the facts to suit that end. Your opinions are drawn from your current position of ignorance and offer false hope to others that are similarly ill-informed. In short you are merely doing your incompetent best.

My conclusions are based on facts from objective sources of evidence. The reality is that building more new houses will not solve the crisis of afforadbility that exists in the housing market - whether the land is free or otherwise. It will help (particularly where you live in the SE) but it will not cure the problem.

We are also still to find out about your apparent expertise in this area - please do share as I have.

[Tired of Waiting]

Let's try and go back to the start here. (...)

Geeez you wrote a lot!

Sorry, dinner is ready, I'll reply tomorrow - well, I'll try to find a few minutes for you.

Just 1 thing: did you find a post where I said "less" than £1,000/m2? Or did you distort my argument?

See ya,

ToW

Edited June 2, 2012 by Tired of Waiting

[Tired of Waiting]

Let's try and go back to the start here. You quoted your build costs from Homebuilding and Rennovation Magazine. You only use the table and you largely ignore the comments because in your world they don't apply. Also, opportunity cost is not an issue for you since you are still using Builder and sub-contractor (Option C I thing).

The table

Here's what Option C entails:-

Build Route C: Building using a main contractor or package supplier to complete the structure to a weathertight stage, with the remaining work being under­taken by subcontractors with most materials purchased by self-builder direct from suppliers.

So that means you have to buy the materials and co-ordinate the subs. Best of luck doing that. Are you going to be onsite every day to take deliveries or are you going to take the chance of the subs taking care of this issue. Also, you need to coordinate the subs - a vast source of dispute resolution in the construction industry. Still think there is no opportunity cost with this issue?!

From the table, you are looking at Small SE. Standard is £1060m2 and good is £1227m2.

In a previous post I wrote: (...) to build a medium size, two storey house, in the South-East (my case/plans/wishes/hope), it would cost £827/sq.m for a "standard" finish level, or £1001/sq.m for a good finish level. (...)

And yet, you've altered two of the criteria above, and picked the number for a small bungalow! Hence you started your calculations from an already inflated number.

( An update here: I was only familiar with last year's table. Now that we have the 2012 table I am happy to adjust my cost/m2, from £827 to the new £860 [May 2012]. )

What else do you need to consider (ie not included in the above) - again from the Don't Forget section:-

Legal Fees: £500-1,000

Stamp Duty and Land Tax: The tax is cur¬rently levied at 1% for land or house purchases valued from £125,001 to £250,000, 3% for plots valued from £250,001 to £500,000 and 4% over £500,000

Topographical Site Survey: Typical cost £350-500

Design Fees: Architects charge 7-15% of the total build cost for a ser¬vice involv¬ing design and supervision. For planning drawings from other sources expect to pay from £2,500-3,500, plus a similar figure for Building Regulations drawings

Structural Engineers’ Fees: £400-500

Planning Application Fees: £335

Building Regulations Fees: £500-1,000

Warranty: Around 1% of contract value

Self-build Insurance: £500-800

Services: Typically £3,500-6,000 total

Demolition Costs: Typically £5,000-10,000

External Works: Around 15% of total build cost

I've scored out the items that you can ignore on a self build plot and assuming we live in your Utopia there will be no planning and building fees. Also, lets assume professional fees are 7% of your build cost. Let's stick the standard build cost of £1060m2

80x1060 = £84,800

Total of costs covered by the "Don't Forget" section (taking the median figure where a range is supplied): £29771

Total Cost - £114,571

Total Cost per sq m - £1432.14

No over-estimation, I'm afraid - just all of the numbers based on your source of information.

Just a few comments:

1) I also told you before that I was happy to buy a serviced plot. So please correct your calculations there.

2) It's completely illogical for you to remove from your calculations the fees for Planning Application Building Regulations - unless you were trying to create a straw-man argument to accuse me of living in a "Utopian" universe...

3) I am not going to spend 15% on external works.

4) But I will hire a very good architect, and adequate for my needs: focused on smart/wise low cost building. My father did that in the 90s, I followed / even participated in the whole process, and he ended up with a much better and much cheaper house as a result.

As a cross check, I went to the BCIS website and used their re-building calculator. Here are the results:-

Rebuild Calculator Results

Estimate of Rebuilding Cost from BCIS.

The rebuilding cost is estimated to be £127,000 based on the information and assumptions listed below (1).

The property is smaller than the cost models available: in order to calculate a rebuilding cost a larger property has been assumed.

Quality and facilities make a big difference to the rebuilding cost. While the figure above is a reasonable estimate of the likely cost for a good quality house with typical facilities, a basic quality house of the same size with minimal facilities might be rebuilt for £105,000 while an excellent quality house might cost £162,000 to rebuild.

The information we based this estimate on was:

Detached 2 storey house built with brick external walls (2) and tile roof built around 1950 (3). The property is not listed and does not include any special or unusual features.

Postcode ME1.

Gross external floor area: 80m2 (4).

2 bathrooms.

No separate garage.

BCIS has assumed the following:

There is no cellar.

An allowance for external works has been made which might typically comprise drive or hardstanding, paths and patio, walls and fences, drainage. However there can be big differences in the scale and cost. Special or unusual features, such as long boundary walls, swimming pools etc have not been allowed for.

The prices used are for May 2012. This report was generated at 10:09:04 on 02-Jun-2012.

Notes:

(1) This estimate is based on minimal details. If you have a listed property or one with special or unusual features you should obtain professional advice on the rebuilding cost. You may also wish to obtain professional advice to be more certain about the rebuilding cost. A list of chartered surveyors in your area capable of carrying out a rebuilding cost assessment can be found at http://www.rics.org/RICSservices/Findasurveyor.

(2) Brick external walls include brick faced timber framed houses and cement rendered walls.

(3) It is assumed that the property is built in a style typical of its age.

(4) The Gross External Floor Area is the area of all floors added together measured from the outside.

BCIS is the Building Cost Information Service of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. For further details please visit http://www.bcis.co.uk.

This report copyright RICS 2012.

You can knock something off for demolition which is included in the above costs.

Notes

a. The costs are based on typical design and specification for the period. The changes in specification and design occurred gradually, rather than at specific dates. No guidance is available on bungalows prior to 1840, purpose built flats prior to 1946 or conversion flats after 1945.

b. The rebuilding costs also include an allowance for full central heating costs, demolition and site clearance costs, architects' and surveyors' fees, and one half of the cost of rebuilding party walls in both terraced and semi-detached houses.

c. Costs are based on houses or flats of an average quality finish and might need adjusting. A range is given to indicate the possible variation in rebuilding cost because of quality and features. The figures given allow for double glazing. If your house is of higher quality with, for example, a luxury kitchen and sanitary fittings, floor and wall finishes, your final figure may need to be towards the upper end of the range shown. Likewise difficult ground conditions requiring special foundations will tend to increase costs.

d. Building costs in Northern Ireland are considerably lower than in the rest of the UK but they are affected by particular local conditions and seeking local advice is recommended.

What are you talking about??

"RE-building"??!! "Demolition"??!!

And with very confused data all over! it's useless!

Why are you wasting our time??

So there you have it - no made up figures, just facts.

You said that you had negative feelings about me. These are not reciprocated -

I was a bit surprised by that, but... I kept an open mind.

But then:

I actually feel sorry for you and generally wish you well. You seem like a well intentioned, decent chap who will simply never achieve his ambitions unless he faces up to the likely cost of building a house. You have simply reached a conclusion that you hope is true (that you can build for £1000m2)and then tried to manipulate the facts to suit that end. Your opinions are drawn from your current position of ignorance and offer false hope to others that are similarly ill-informed. In short you are merely doing your incompetent best.

Geeez, I can only imagine how you treat people you don't "wish well" and seemed "like a well intentioned, decent chap"...

My conclusions are based on facts from objective sources of evidence.

I've demonstrated how you "select" your facts...

The reality is that building more new houses will not solve the crisis of afforadbility that exists in the housing market - whether the land is free or otherwise. It will help (particularly where you live in the SE) but it will not cure the problem.

Thanks for conceding that it will help, particularly here in the SE.

Regarding the rest of the country, we've explained to you already, repeatedly (and you've been ignoring it, repeatedly), that the poorer in society don't have to live in self-builds, and not even in new builds. Some may need some help with rents, but:

Your construction industry does NOT need taxpayers subsidy.

You also wrote: "We are also still to find out about your apparent expertise in this area - please do share as I have."

As I said before, I am a "client", not a builder. Does that mean that I have to believe whatever you tell me, and cough up? I also mentioned my family direct experience with it.

And re. your other "argument": It will be a huge pleasure to build a home for me and my wife, and start a family in it - even if the process it's full of annoying problems. It's a silly technicality from your side to try to focus this on the "opportunity cost" side. It won't be a "cost" for me, it will be a pleasure.

.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Tired of Waiting

[7upfree]

Not really. My point throughout is that - excluding land - it would cost only around £1,000/sq.m to have a house build for you.

This table shows that using a "builder plus subbies" (no DIY there), to build a medium size, two storey house, in the South-East (my case/plans/wishes/hope), it would cost £827/sq.m for a "standard" finish level, or £1001/sq.m for a good finish level.

7up was saying that - also excluding land - it would cost £1,400/sq.m.

Huge difference there.

.

That clear enough for you? A bit worrying that you can't remember saying this only a few days ago.... Still feel free to continue deflecting and dissembling to suit your own ends.

[Tired of Waiting]

That clear enough for you? A bit worrying that you can't remember saying this only a few days ago.... Still feel free to continue deflecting and dissembling to suit your own ends.

Because that £827 doesn't include some extra fees, and a few other expenses. That's why I said in the very same post that the total cost should be around £1,000m2.

By the way, glad that you've confirmed there that you have read my post where I said that I was basing my calculations on a two-storey, medium size house.

[Tired of Waiting]

And I'm adding let's not take designandmaterials.uk.com as gospel. There is plenty of scope for getting below £1000/m2. Even though peak oil is a concern.

just spotted at bottom of page "N.B. Due the volatility of the market we are finding that most of our clients are currently building for less than the table would suggest."

http://www.designandmaterials.uk.com/build_costs.html

Yes, good point.

Many builders and small building companies are offering very low fees right now, with some even just trying to keep their workforce in place. As long as they can pay everybody's salaries, some are even aiming at zero profit for this year. And this may continue for a few years.

[7upfree]

Because that £827 doesn't include some extra fees, and a few other expenses. That's why I said in the very same post that the total cost should be around £1,000m2.

By the way, glad that you've confirmed there that you have read my post where I said that I was basing my calculations on a two-storey, medium size house.

You're quite correct - that was a mistake on my part. The correct figures for a small Route C house are £1020 and £1180m2 - about £40m2 of a difference from the bungalow. This began as a debate concerning an 80sq m house. My analysis is based on that house. Your figures are correct for medium and not small houses. However, I picked the 80 sq m house to try and demonstrate my point; you can't build it for £1000m2. I think I have done that. How are most people in the country going to afford the £1400 sq m house. Your house will most likely cost £860m2 + all of the costs outlined above. With a fair wind you might get it done for something closer to £1150 sq m.

As an aside, you can't really rely on the costs and hold them up as being accurate and then at the same time ignore the other suggested "extra" costs. In my experience, at attempt to approbate and reprobate the same document rarely succeeds....

I am genuinely sorry if I have offended you - not my intention. We have a legitimate disagreement regarding what it costs to build a house and that's it. I genuinely wish you well for the future and your build if the opportunity ever arises. I don't want a subsidy for myself. I am financially very secure and my life is untouched by the problems of the housing market. My concern is for others - particularly children - and trying to find a way to see them raised in a better environment. Reform of planning will help but it will note solve the problem. We already do subsidise the property market through Housing Benefit and the like. I think this money could be better used.

[7upfree]

Just a few comments:

1) I also told you before that I was happy to buy a serviced plot. So please correct your calculations there.

The costs in HBR assume that there is a service to the road. The service costs above relate to connections from your house to the road so you need to include them.

2) It's completely illogical for you to remove from your calculations the fees for Planning Application Building Regulations - unless you were trying to create a straw-man argument to accuse me of living in a "Utopian" universe...

Fair enough - it only increases the costs.

3) I am not going to spend 15% on external works.

You will need to provide something - there are minimum building regulation standards. If you let me know what they are I will give you an estimate of costs.

4) But I will hire a very good architect, and adequate for my needs: focused on smart/wise low cost building. My father did that in the 90s, I followed / even participated in the whole process, and he ended up with a much better and much cheaper house as a result.

That's a mistake based on my experience. What you should do is get the contractor to talk to the architect. Architects are full of expensive ideas - builders are infinately more practical, if properly managed. There is no guarantee that you will replicate your Father's experience. How much did he spend all in? I have the BCIS cost figures going back nearly 25 years.

What are you talking about??

"RE-building"??!! "Demolition"??!!

And with very confused data all over! it's useless!

Why are you wasting our time??

The BCIS are the leading providers of cost data to the construction industry. The house cost that I gave you was for rebuilding. Under the exclusion of demolition costs that I told you about, it replicates the cost of building a house on a serviced plot. I cut and pasted the data that the calculator provided. I found it quite straight forward to understand. You should try it - a very helpful and free tool. I will re-run it for a medium sized house and post the results.

I was a bit surprised by that, but... I kept an open mind.

But then:

Geeez, I can only imagine how you treat people you don't "wish well" and seemed "like a well intentioned, decent chap"...

I've demonstrated how you "select" your facts...

Thanks for conceding that it will help, particularly here in the SE.

Regarding the rest of the country, we've explained to you already, repeatedly (and you've been ignoring it, repeatedly), that the poorer in society don't have to live in self-builds, and not even in new builds. Some may need some help with rents, but:

Your construction industry does NOT need taxpayers subsidy.

I don't benefit from the subsidy. I serve the construction industry and as I explained elsewhere you alaready subsidise it. Why not try and find a way to use that money in a more productive fashion. The poor need to live somewhere - the cost of building them houses will not be all that different to the above.

You also wrote: "We are also still to find out about your apparent expertise in this area - please do share as I have."

As I said before, I am a "client", not a builder. Does that mean that I have to believe whatever you tell me, and cough up? I also mentioned my family direct experience with it.

And re. your other "argument": It will be a huge pleasure to build a home for me and my wife, and start a family in it - even if the process it's full of annoying problems. It's a silly technicality from your side to try to focus this on the "opportunity cost" side. It won't be a "cost" for me, it will be a pleasure.

Fair enough. I fear the experience may be somewaht different but it looks like you are willing to give it a try. Your rationale is somewhat flawed. I also love running my own business but it does not mean there is no opportunity cost.

.

[7upfree]

Yes, good point.

Many builders and small building companies are offering very low fees right now, with some even just trying to keep their workforce in place. As long as they can pay everybody's salaries, some are even aiming at zero profit for this year. And this may continue for a few years.

Many contractors are pricing under cost just now. Why? They hope to make their money in variations under to the contract. Alternatively, HMRC get used as the bank of last resort and ultimately society pays the cost. There are no "free lunches" in the broader context.

[Tired of Waiting]

You're quite correct - that was a mistake on my part. The correct figures for a small Route C house are £1020 and £1180m2 - about £40m2 of a difference from the bungalow. This began as a debate concerning an 80sq m house. My analysis is based on that house. Your figures are correct for medium and not small houses.

Thank you!

Finally!

However, I picked the 80 sq m house to try and demonstrate my point; you can't build it for £1000m2. I think I have done that.

Oh, not again...

Picking the most expensive case per sq.m (a small, one storey house) does NOT demonstrate your point!

How are most people in the country going to afford the £1400 sq m house.

Because the poorer half of the country does not have to self build! Or even live in a new builds!

For goodness sake, you keep ignoring this point!

Look: Suppose your Scottish government up there created hundreds of nice garden suburbs around most of your cities, towns and villages, building roads, setting up services and selling serviced plots to thousands of middle class families, for them to build their nice "dream" "posh" detached homes. These thousands of families would leave behind smaller houses, and so forth, with the bottom of the market becoming cheaper, and even used for social housing - at a lower cost for the taxpayers.

You don't have to build new small houses houses for the poor. You don't even have to build new "council estates"!

If they did that in the SE I wouldn't even have to bother to build a house. I would just buy one of the terraces left behind!

As an aside, you can't really rely on the costs and hold them up as being accurate and then at the same time ignore the other suggested "extra" costs. In my experience, at attempt to approbate and reprobate the same document rarely succeeds....

Rubbish. You must know how variable the cost of "external work" is.

(...) I don't want a subsidy for myself. I am financially very secure and my life is untouched by the problems of the housing market.

I had noticed that.

If you don't mind me asking, in what year did you buy your first property? I think it was before the bubble. Right?

My concern is for others - particularly children - and trying to find a way to see them raised in a better environment. Reform of planning will help but it will note solve the problem.

Good. We have the same intention then.

Planning is half of the problem. We also need to regulate and curb credit. This will bring house prices down.

By the way, you do want house prices to fall, right?

We already do subsidise the property market through Housing Benefit and the like. I think this money could be better used.

How?

Please do answer this: Do you do want Scottish house prices to fall further?

.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Tired of Waiting

[7upfree]

Thank you!

Finally!

Oh, not again...

Picking the most expensive case per sq.m (a small, one storey house) does NOT demonstrate your point!

Because the poorer half of the country does not have to self build! Or even live in a new builds!

For goodness sake, you keep ignoring this point!

Look: Suppose your Scottish government up there created hundreds of nice garden suburbs around most of your cities, towns and villages, building roads, setting up services and selling serviced plots to thousands of middle class families, for them to build their nice "dream" "posh" detached homes. These thousands of families would leave behind smaller houses, and so forth, with the bottom of the market becoming cheaper, and even used for social housing - at a lower cost for the taxpayers.

You don't have to build new small houses houses for the poor. You don't even have to build new "council estates"!

If they did that in the SE I wouldn't even have to bother to build a house. I would just buy one of the terraces left behind!

Rubbish. You must know how variable the cost of "external work" is.

I had noticed that.

If you don't mind me asking, in what year did you buy your first property? I think it was before the bubble. Right?

Good. We have the same intention then.

Planning is half of the problem. We also need to regulate and curb credit. This will bring house prices down.

By the way, you do want house prices to fall, right?

How?

Please do answer this: Do you do want Scottish house prices to fall further?

.

The BCIS figures are for a 2 storey, 80m2 house. It can't be built for £1000m2 as the above shows. I will check what you can build a 130 sq m house and post the details when I get a minute so we are like for like.

On the basis that I would like to trade up, falling house prices would be desirable. How we pay for the banking sector losses if this happens to any significant extent is another matter. would we ultimately be any better off as a society if these losses were inevitably socialised? Chances are savers would be wiped out as well - don't suspect the fcis scheme will be honoured or if is it will be with devalued, printed paper.

We nearly built our own home last year. However, it was going to create a degree of equity so we decided against. Even on a 380m2 house, I couldn't get the cost under £1000m2. I bought my flat in 1999 and the a house in 2003. We have minimal equity in our house and when we find something else we will cut the price and take the hit. The reality is that I can afford to do this because I started my own business from scratch with nothing in the bank, silver spoon, etc, and it has done well - not because I have the ill gotten gains of hpi over a long period.

If people were to move to new self build property and trade up as you suggest, it does not explain how the poor would purchase their houses to facilitate this. How would this come about? Genuine question, btw. The more that prices fall, the harder it will be to justify building anything which compounds the problem.

The answer to our housing crisis lies in science and technology. Modular housing may deliver far cheaper housing but it will be at the expense of very significant job losses in the construction industry.

[7upfree]

Bcis data for 130m2 house. Comes in at £1369m2. You can knock something off for demolition and clearance costs but they will not be that significant. You also need to add something back for higher professional fees in the context of a new build rather than a rebuild. The ABI use bcis for their cost data. Suspect this data is pretty accurate overall. You can make savings on a one off build. However, large scale self build as you envisage will need big infrastructure investment. That will send the above figure even higher as you build new roads, sewers, footpaths, lighting, roundabouts, etc. on a very large scale you need to think about the capital cost of new schools and hospitals, etc.

Thank you!

Finally!

Oh, not again...

Picking the most expensive case per sq.m (a small, one storey house) does NOT demonstrate your point!

Because the poorer half of the country does not have to self build! Or even live in a new builds!

For goodness sake, you keep ignoring this point!

Look: Suppose your Scottish government up there created hundreds of nice garden suburbs around most of your cities, towns and villages, building roads, setting up services and selling serviced plots to thousands of middle class families, for them to build their nice "dream" "posh" detached homes. These thousands of families would leave behind smaller houses, and so forth, with the bottom of the market becoming cheaper, and even used for social housing - at a lower cost for the taxpayers.

You don't have to build new small houses houses for the poor. You don't even have to build new "council estates"!

If they did that in the SE I wouldn't even have to bother to build a house. I would just buy one of the terraces left behind!

Rubbish. You must know how variable the cost of "external work" is.

I had noticed that.

If you don't mind me asking, in what year did you buy your first property? I think it was before the bubble. Right?

Good. We have the same intention then.

Planning is half of the problem. We also need to regulate and curb credit. This will bring house prices down.

By the way, you do want house prices to fall, right?

How?

Please do answer this: Do you do want Scottish house prices to fall further?

.

Here are the bcis figures for a 130m2 house

Rebuild Calculator Results

Estimate of Rebuilding Cost from BCIS.

The rebuilding cost is estimated to be £178,000 based on the information and assumptions listed below (1).

Quality and facilities make a big difference to the rebuilding cost. While the figure above is a reasonable estimate of the likely cost for a good quality house with typical facilities, a basic quality house of the same size with minimal facilities might be rebuilt for £148,000 while an excellent quality house might cost £230,000 to rebuild.

The information we based this estimate on was:

Detached 2 storey house built with brick external walls (2) and tile roof built around 1950 (3). The property is not listed and does not include any special or unusual features.

Postcode ME1.

Gross external floor area: 130m2 (4).

2 bathrooms.

No separate garage.

BCIS has assumed the following:

There is no cellar.

An allowance for external works has been made which might typically comprise drive or hardstanding, paths and patio, walls and fences, drainage. However there can be big differences in the scale and cost. Special or unusual features, such as long boundary walls, swimming pools etc have not been allowed for.

The prices used are for May 2012. This report was generated at 00:46:10 on 05-Jun-2012.

Notes:

(1) This estimate is based on minimal details. If you have a listed property or one with special or unusual features you should obtain professional advice on the rebuilding cost. You may also wish to obtain professional advice to be more certain about the rebuilding cost. A list of chartered surveyors in your area capable of carrying out a rebuilding cost assessment can be found at http://www.rics.org/RICSservices/Findasurveyor.

(2) Brick external walls include brick faced timber framed houses and cement rendered walls.

(3) It is assumed that the property is built in a style typical of its age.

(4) The Gross External Floor Area is the area of all floors added together measured from the outside.

BCIS is the Building Cost Information Service of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. For further details please visit http://www.bcis.co.uk.

This report copyright RICS 2012.

[Tired of Waiting]

Here are the bcis figures for a 130m2 house

Rebuild Calculator Results

Estimate of Rebuilding Cost from BCIS.

The rebuilding cost is estimated to be £178,000 based on the information and assumptions listed below (1).

Quality and facilities make a big difference to the rebuilding cost. While the figure above is a reasonable estimate of the likely cost for a good quality house with typical facilities, a basic quality house of the same size with minimal facilities might be rebuilt for £148,000 while an excellent quality house might cost £230,000 to rebuild.

The information we based this estimate on was:

Detached 2 storey house built with brick external walls (2) and tile roof built around 1950 (3). The property is not listed and does not include any special or unusual features.

Postcode ME1.

Gross external floor area: 130m2 (4).

2 bathrooms.

No separate garage.

BCIS has assumed the following:

There is no cellar.

An allowance for external works has been made which might typically comprise drive or hardstanding, paths and patio, walls and fences, drainage. However there can be big differences in the scale and cost. Special or unusual features, such as long boundary walls, swimming pools etc have not been allowed for.

The prices used are for May 2012. This report was generated at 00:46:10 on 05-Jun-2012.

Notes:

(1) This estimate is based on minimal details. If you have a listed property or one with special or unusual features you should obtain professional advice on the rebuilding cost. You may also wish to obtain professional advice to be more certain about the rebuilding cost. A list of chartered surveyors in your area capable of carrying out a rebuilding cost assessment can be found at http://www.rics.org/RICSservices/Findasurveyor.

(2) Brick external walls include brick faced timber framed houses and cement rendered walls.

(3) It is assumed that the property is built in a style typical of its age.

(4) The Gross External Floor Area is the area of all floors added together measured from the outside.

BCIS is the Building Cost Information Service of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. For further details please visit http://www.bcis.co.uk.

This report copyright RICS 2012.

£148,000 / 130m2 = £1,138/m2

Then:

Bcis data for 130m2 house. Comes in at £1369m2. You can knock something off for demolition and clearance costs but they will not be that significant. You also need to add something back for higher professional fees in the context of a new build rather than a rebuild. The ABI use bcis for their cost data. Suspect this data is pretty accurate overall. You can make savings on a one off build. However, large scale self build as you envisage will need big infrastructure investment. That will send the above figure even higher as you build new roads, sewers, footpaths, lighting, roundabouts, etc. on a very large scale you need to think about the capital cost of new schools and hospitals, etc.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Tired of Waiting

[Tired of Waiting]

The BCIS figures are for a 2 storey, 80m2 house. It can't be built for £1000m2 as the above shows. I will check what you can build a 130 sq m house and post the details when I get a minute so we are like for like.

On the basis that I would like to trade up, falling house prices would be desirable. How we pay for the banking sector losses if this happens to any significant extent is another matter. would we ultimately be any better off as a society if these losses were inevitably socialised? Chances are savers would be wiped out as well - don't suspect the fcis scheme will be honoured or if is it will be with devalued, printed paper.

We nearly built our own home last year. However, it was going to create a degree of equity so we decided against. Even on a 380m2 house, I couldn't get the cost under £1000m2. I bought my flat in 1999 and the a house in 2003. We have minimal equity in our house and when we find something else we will cut the price and take the hit. The reality is that I can afford to do this because I started my own business from scratch with nothing in the bank, silver spoon, etc, and it has done well - not because I have the ill gotten gains of hpi over a long period.

If people were to move to new self build property and trade up as you suggest, it does not explain how the poor would purchase their houses to facilitate this. How would this come about? Genuine question, btw. The more that prices fall, the harder it will be to justify building anything which compounds the problem.

The answer to our housing crisis lies in science and technology. Modular housing may deliver far cheaper housing but it will be at the expense of very significant job losses in the construction industry.

A few points:

- I'm sorry for your loss (having upgraded to a house in 2003, in Scotland). I think individual buyers have only a smaller share of responsibility, and the main blame should be allocated to Brown/Mervyn, bankers, and the UK media.

- IIRC back in 2009 or 10 banks stress tests were already showing that banks could resist a 10-15% in nominal HP falls. Since then they've been requiring a minimum of 25% deposits, increasing their "buffer zone". They should be able to survive a nominal fall of over 30% by now.

- You keep confusing costs related to plot development (roads, services, etc), to costs related to the construction of the house itself.

- Germany has very low property prices, mainly due to a tightly regulated mortgage market curbing demand, and liberal planning policies (plenty of cheap serviced plots available all over the country) boosting supply. We do the exact opposite here: inflate demand with irresponsible credit, and curb supply via planning restrictions = extremely stupid, fecking the country's economy. Please see my forum sig., below: