Do You Trust The Stock Markets Anymore?

[Executive Sadman]

The trouble is, the world is run by Krugman acolytes. People who are obsessed with GDP (or tractor production for that matter) and dont care how we get there, so long as on face value everything looks OK.

To an extent, they are probably right. I doubt the typical bankster/pension fund manger actually questions the stats he is given. They sure as hell didnt question the ratings agencies...why would they question govt.

[Englebert]

The Stock Market, in my opinion, is part of the malaise. The sooner the whole thing collapses, the better. I used to have shares...they were given to me. I quickly got rid of them. I don't approve of them. I view them in the same way as a BTL may view his/her portfolio ie money for nothing and always expecting a return.

[desertorchid]

The Stock Market, in my opinion, is part of the malaise. The sooner the whole thing collapses, the better. I used to have shares...they were given to me. I quickly got rid of them. I don't approve of them. I view them in the same way as a BTL may view his/her portfolio ie money for nothing and always expecting a return.

Interesting the hatred of the stock market.

I believe the stock market is a pure market where price discovery is allowed due to liquidity and the existence of bullish and bearish behaviour (going short) This is a far cry from the housing market which is grossly manipulated by government policy and there is no real mechanism in a meaningful timeframe for prices to fall.

It is a risky asset whichever way you look at it but good companies will thrive.

[billybong]

In answer to the thread question.

No.

Edited May 8, 2012 by billybong

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

Even if you know what companies to pick.

Even if you had inside information.

The HFTs will still take a small percentage of your transactions, and HFT traders will still make a better profit than you.

Back-door access to stock market trading has giving the big banks an immoral edge.

The stock markets should continue, but trading should be through a simple web interface with no-one given preference over anyone else.

Giving big banks preferential stock market access was always going to lead to them gaming the system.

[white110]

You might as well get a copy of the racing times and put your money on a horse to win.

There is just as much info on a horses' past performance and the jockey/trainer

as there is in company accounts and the CEO/company board.

Spread betting is an each way bet.

Derivatives are an accumulator.

Stock broker or bookie they rarely lose.

Electronic trading replaced the open pit, just as internet accounts replaced the bookie at the course.

[Englebert]

Interesting the hatred of the stock market.

I believe the stock market is a pure market where price discovery is allowed due to liquidity and the existence of bullish and bearish behaviour (going short) This is a far cry from the housing market which is grossly manipulated by government policy and there is no real mechanism in a meaningful timeframe for prices to fall.

It is a risky asset whichever way you look at it but good companies will thrive.

The Stock market to me is effectively like a big bookmakers. Shareholders are basically the same kind of people who go and place a bet on the 4:30 at Cheltenham. They are effectively gamblers. They play the markets just like an amateur hedge fund managers. I can't stand them.

White110 beat me to it!

Edited May 8, 2012 by The Dude

[felix]

You might as well get a copy of the racing times and put your money on a horse to win.

There is just as much info on a horses' past performance and the jockey/trainer

as there is in company accounts and the CEO/company board.

Spread betting is an each way bet.

Derivatives are an accumulator.

Stock broker or bookie they rarely lose.

Electronic trading replaced the open pit, just as internet accounts replaced the bookie at the course.

You should not be that negative. There are gamblers that do beat the bookies:

http://www.betting-school.com/bet/2010/01/25/top-ten-pro-gamblers-uk-horse-racing/

So I would say there must also be players on the stock market that win!

[wonderpup]

"Wall Street is a crime syndicate, and I am not speaking metaphorically,"

Even the mafia were smart enough not to rig their gambling houses. Once word gets out that the game is rigged nobody plays.

[desertorchid]

The Stock market to me is effectively like a big bookmakers. Shareholders are basically the same kind of people who go and place a bet on the 4:30 at Cheltenham. They are effectively gamblers. They play the markets just like an amateur hedge fund managers. I can't stand them.

White110 beat me to it!

Would you of said this in 1999?

I think people expect to make money on every share they purchase. Some companies will fail or decline, they are real entities with a productive, profit making purpose.

would you like to have bought some Apple shares in 2004?

[Englebert]

Would you of said this in 1999?

I think people expect to make money on every share they purchase. Some companies will fail or decline, they are real entities with a productive, profit making purpose.

would you like to have bought some Apple shares in 2004?

I am mot interested in shares full stop. Whether it be Apple or anyone else. I just haven't got the money to gamble on any of it.

[200p]

Chris Walztek said stocks are like passing a hot potato between people. You don't want to end up with the hot potato! And all stocks eventually go to zero!

[aa3]

Even if a corporation does well and it is in a booming industry.. the management might take all the money for themselves. And there is nothing you can do about it.

See Britain's best corporations, the banks, even backed 100% by the government.. they still wiped out their shareholders money, while giving themselves enormous, historic bonuses.

Then there is the small issue of lying about what is on their books..

[200p]

Pro forma earnings they call it.

[aa3]

Its one reason I think people went BTL over the last decade. Sure it might not be a great investment when prices are high.. but at least it is 100% in your name. The property even passes to your children when you die.

The idea of taking my money and investing it in a company that I have no control over seems insane to me. Like we've seen with those 'mark to fiction' accounting practices, no one is even accountable when they outright lie. The managers get off, and so do the accounting firms that audited the books.

[Gone baby gone]

The stock market lost sight of it's original purpose - to provide a way for growing companies to get funding.

It's become the epicentre of short-term speculation, which is damaging to both the majority of companies listed on it and the majority of shareholders.

If they introduced a buy and hold rule - that forced you to hold any share for a reasonable period of time (say 6 months) perhaps you could salvage something from it, but right now it's part of the problem and not part of the solution...

When it's easier to take a profit than it is to make a profit, you can be sure the game is up.

[Gone baby gone]

The idea of taking my money and investing it in a company that I have no control over seems insane to me. Like we've seen with those 'mark to fiction' accounting practices, no one is even accountable when they outright lie. The managers get off, and so do the accounting firms that audited the books.

Once you allow things to be "off balance sheet" all bets are off. When even high street banks' accounts bear about as much relation to reality as a Labour manifesto, you do have to wonder... what is the point?

[Ruffneck]

my stock down 11% today and 5% yesterday , it's down around 35% since i bought it 2 months ago

Ahh well , 2000 dollars in a speculative gold/silver miner.Could still turn around pretty quickly.

[Ruffneck]

Even if a corporation does well and it is in a booming industry.. the management might take all the money for themselves. And there is nothing you can do about it.

See Britain's best corporations, the banks, even backed 100% by the government.. they still wiped out their shareholders money, while giving themselves enormous, historic bonuses.

Then there is the small issue of lying about what is on their books..

Where do you put your savings then , in a bank account where the value of them gets eroded by 10% a year due to inflation?

Everywhere is rigged

Yes i am aware of physical gold and islver i have around 12000 AUD worth stored for me in the perth mint vaults.

[Andy D]

Would you of said this in 1999?

I think people expect to make money on every share they purchase. Some companies will fail or decline, they are real entities with a productive, profit making purpose.

would you like to have bought some Apple shares in 2004?

Sure there are shares that do well because the company does wel but...

If you look at the market overall it's not really gone anywhere for ten years, so people's funds haven't grown (with the exception of dividends) but yet those involved in the market are still taking home huge sums of money.

The stock market is being gamed for the benefit of the traders / bankers etc. and at the cost to the punter...

[zugzwang]

The stock market's been pretty good to me, as much as I despise the people who make a living from it. In the last 10 years I've probably doubled my net worth - no skill involved, it's been done mostly by going long and hanging on from 2004.

Is it manipulated? Sure it's manipulated! When hasn't it been? Even back in the days of the 'Kid Plunger ' Jesse Livermore you had to think like a criminal.

At least the Fed and the ECB only interfere through proxies and not by buying stocks directly like the BoJ.

My link

LOS ANGELES (MarketWatch) — The Bank of Japan stepped back into the stock market Monday, making its largest single-day purchase of exchange-traded funds to date, though the move failed to prevent a sharp fall for the Tokyo equity market.

The Japanese central bank said it spent 39.7 billion yen (about $500 million) buying up stock ETFs as part of its ongoing asset-purchase program, breaking a previous record of ¥28.5 billion, set on April 16.

In addition to the ETF buys, the Bank of Japan also acquired ¥2.3 billion in real-estate investment trusts Monday. Since the 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers and ensuing global crisis, central banks around the world have embarked on a spree of asset-buying meant to avoid deflation and, to a certain extent, support the markets.

But Japan’s monetary authority is almost unique among its peers in the major developed economies in its high-profile purchases of ETFs, which it began in December 2010 as part of aggressive easing measures.

Since then, the Bank of Japan has bought almost ¥1 trillion worth of ETFs — along with another ¥78.9 billion in REITs — and has an additional ¥642 billion to spend on the stock funds after raising the program’s size at it last policy meeting in April.

[OnlyMe]

A horrible precident when the bankers were bailed out, I said so at the time, it has just incentivised the heads of most of the the other companies to make out like bandits.

An investment market it is not, an even plaing field it is not, a source of future seed funding for UK companies it is not, a source for long term returns for pensions is also highl unlikely after it has morphed into what it is now.

[DeepLurker]

The stock market lost sight of it's original purpose - to provide a way for growing companies to get funding.

It's become the epicentre of short-term speculation, which is damaging to both the majority of companies listed on it and the majority of shareholders.

If they introduced a buy and hold rule - that forced you to hold any share for a reasonable period of time (say 6 months) perhaps you could salvage something from it, but right now it's part of the problem and not part of the solution...

When it's easier to take a profit than it is to make a profit, you can be sure the game is up.

+1

[longtomsilver]

The Stock Market, in my opinion, is part of the malaise. The sooner the whole thing collapses, the better. I used to have shares...they were given to me. I quickly got rid of them. I don't approve of them. I view them in the same way as a BTL may view his/her portfolio ie money for nothing and always expecting a return.

How can you not approve of an individualsownership of shares. Personally, it's a good thing that I am allowed to be a stakeholder in the means of production. There are corrupt institutions and companies out there for sure but due diligence means I can avoid them or the malaise as you say.

[easy2012]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703339304575240520051755794.html

Likewise, David Collum, 55, a chemistry professor at Cornell University, said he lost sleep over his investments in 1998 and sold half of his mutual funds. The next year he sold the rest and bought into a bear fund. By 2007, he began to tell his students the banking system would collapse.

"Wall Street is a crime syndicate, and I am not speaking metaphorically," Mr. Collum said. "The banking system is oligarchic and the political system has metastasized into state capitalism. The most important market in the world—the market in which lenders and borrowers

I don't normally listen to professors (chemistry or economic or otherwise) when it comes to investment. University is not the real world..