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If you have any social capital (family, friends, business relationships etc) in the community in which you are living, you'd need pretty big reasons to move and write it off. And if you've failed to build up that capital so far in a country where you speak the language, have connections, understand the culture and law - what chance do you have on the side of the planet?

That's the real difference between young and old.

At 18, you leave home and go to university[1]. Leaving behind all your social capital and making a new life. At that age it's great: a first taste of freedom, a readymade community and social life, a well-organised support network to help with thing like finding accommodation.

Then you graduate, find a job, up sticks and move again. This time it's less exciting: you're moving to an environment of less freedom and less support. But still, you'll be among others in similar circumstances, and can build a new life.

As you get older, it gets gradually harder. Up sticks and move at 50 and you stick out like a sore thumb in a regular mobile community of aspiring people half your age. But still, if you're adaptable you can fit in: you just might not be invited to some of the parties! Perhaps more important is that you're less likely to be welcome and employable if you want to go somewhere you don't have an automatic right to move (i.e. non-EU).

I was several years in a very international community. Most expats there were in their 20s, or older people who had arrived young and stayed on. But I recollect one chap who arrived at about 60. His attitude was right, and he fitted in nicely and enjoyed life.

[1] Of course life experiences differ. This is mine.

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Makes perfect sense, although would you agree that your lifestyle (meant with envy - not sarcasm) is not typical of the bulk of the UK population?

My brother in law is Scottish BTW, from your neck of the woods

Funnily enough most Blacks in South Africa are quite nice apart from the ones that want to shoot us - some things never change, no matter where in the World you live

Another vote for the east of Scotland - away from the Central Belt and the cities.

The UK is not a homogenous country, there are huge differences between Scotland and England that most English are utterly unaware of and most Scots are quietly pleased with. There are also huge differences between big cities and outside them which again most urbanites just don't register.

I'm not Scottish, only been here for a few years, but really love it and have had no "immigrant" problems at all.

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Moved to Japan 4 months ago. In so doing I gave up a permanent uni admin job where I was likely to survive the cull and, in theory, a decent pension. I am employed on a one year contract which should be extended a second year. Beyond that feck knows. Mrs Fafa is Japanese and I have lived for close on half a decade in the Far East before, but not Japan so had a fair idea of what awaited.

The primary motive for moving was the cost of housing and concerns about a decent school for a nipper, if we have kids. We were also very tired of the UK's something for nothing entitlement culture.

So far it is good. I am earning more than I did in the UK and taxes are lower. We can eat out cheaply at a decent restaurant for under a tenner each. The very idea of something for nothing is incomprehensible to the average Japanese. If there are chavs in Japan I have yet to run into them. People are exceptionally polite. Weather is good, and the days in winter are not so short. I am happy to trade this for long English summer evenings. My rental is a 2 year contract and when I asked the missus to ask the estate agent if the landlord would do inspections he just looked very very confused. When she explained how things are done in the uk he was horrified. I keep in touch with my old friends more than I did in England

On the down side I find my colleagues very reserved and the language is a struggle, though my knowledge of Chinese helps. The Japanese are good value after a couple of beers though. There is little in the way of public spaces, few parks. No central heating. Architecture is often bland.

I think anyone who has the option of living abroad should try it. Difficulties should not be under estimated but I have found if you are polite and self-effacing people will give you a fair rub of the green. You can always return if it doesn't work out.

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If you have any social capital (family, friends, business relationships etc) in the community in which you are living, you'd need pretty big reasons to move and write it off. And if you've failed to build up that capital so far in a country where you speak the language, have connections, understand the culture and law - what chance do you have on the side of the planet?

Actually I think you'd be surprised.

Most countries you are likely to visit will have at least a small contingent of British ex-pats.. and a lot of ex-pats tend to band together for mutual support. In fact you probably get stronger British communities abroad than you do here. You'll probably find it easy to get on with them because you will all share so much in common!

Presuming you have found a job, you will make friends with colleagues of whom many others may have relocated as well.

Friends and family may be a good reason for staying.. but fear of not finding/making them abroad shouldn't stop you (IMHO).

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Makes perfect sense, although would you agree that your lifestyle (meant with envy - not sarcasm) is not typical of the bulk of the UK population?

My brother in law is Scottish BTW, from your neck of the woods

Funnily enough most Blacks in South Africa are quite nice apart from the ones that want to shoot us - some things never change, no matter where in the World you live

I've done better than the majority of my classmates, those still alive that is! No better than my current peers now though. These are mostly LGV drivers and office staff.

I live in a 2-bed flat on Dundee dockside, 10 minutes from the city centre. Nothing too flash, (we're not talking Canary Wharf here!) but suitable to our needs. We're not gardeners, and the secure parking is good for bikes. Most of my peers have ex council semi's, mostly 3-bed with gardens, and very nice they are too. Some 'stretched' to Barrats boxes, good luck to 'em.

Two cars (partner has a company vehicle) and currently one motorcycle is probably above average, but I've only got a wee Korean diesel car!

We eat out a few times a month, and have a sociable drink a couple of times a week. I think the big difference is that we try to get away from it all a couple of times a month. A weekend on the bike, or visiting friends. £40 on fuel get's you to the other side of the country!

I'm lucky in that I have a close family (no kids myself, but tremendous partner who is a female reflection of myself just better looking!), and have kept good friends close. Perhaps that's the secret?

Edited by AThirdWay
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“If not then why not get out”?

I am unhappy in the UK, but it is not the geography that's the problem.

My UK Pros:

  • Familiarity - I've most experience with 'how things are' in Britain - positioning me best to cope with British culture.

  • Language - Sadly, like many Brits, my language skills are dire - I'm only fluent in English.

  • Family/friends - My family are fixed in the UK, and most of my friends, too.

  • Nationality - I'm British... which makes Britain a default fit... even though, when I once lived briefly in Scotland... while it had some benefits, an irksome drawback was the perpetual 'mostly-a-joke' put-downs for being English not Scottish... and, as such, not belonging. It was never a problem, as such, it just got tedious... until Scotland, I'd only ever considered myself "British from the UK" - but my Scottish experiences forced me to accept that I was born South of the Border.

My UK Cons:

  • Lack of opportunities - But... right now... I'm not sure there are more elsewhere.

  • Undemocratic collegiate electoral system... But... I'm not aware of any country where the democratic process is significantly better.

  • High house prices... But... relative to wages, in relatively developed countries, house prices are high everywhere.

  • Public transport would be an affront to the decency of livestock... But... I prefer to drive anyway.

  • I'm disappointed in the attitudes of most people in Britain... But... I'd probably be disappointed in people abroad too, if exposed to them.

I seriously, and objectively, considered leaving the UK, but all the evidence I found suggests that the grass isn't really greener on the other side.

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Actually I think you'd be surprised.

Most countries you are likely to visit will have at least a small contingent of British ex-pats.. and a lot of ex-pats tend to band together for mutual support. In fact you probably get stronger British communities abroad than you do here. You'll probably find it easy to get on with them because you will all share so much in common!

Exactly my experience in 10-years plus in Asia and years before around the world.

Leaving ChavUK was the best thing I ever did.

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Actually I think you'd be surprised.

Most countries you are likely to visit will have at least a small contingent of British ex-pats.. and a lot of ex-pats tend to band together for mutual support. In fact you probably get stronger British communities abroad than you do here. You'll probably find it easy to get on with them because you will all share so much in common!

Presuming you have found a job, you will make friends with colleagues of whom many others may have relocated as well.

Friends and family may be a good reason for staying.. but fear of not finding/making them abroad shouldn't stop you (IMHO).

I couldn't put it better myself :-)

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I'm lucky in that I have a close family (no kids myself, but tremendous partner who is a female reflection of myself just better looking!), and have kept good friends close. Perhaps that's the secret?

Actually its not a secret, but rather hard to achieve!

well done tho' <_<

BTW Cape Town/Western Cape has some of the best biking routes in the world and lots of bikers that take advantage of it - 30 degrees and leather doesn't go well together, but its worth it

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I seriously, and objectively, considered leaving the UK, but all the evidence I found suggests that the grass isn't really greener on the other side.

As the joke goes "the grass is greener on the other side because it full of Sh*t" and it certainly isn't all green

I will spend Xmas with a BBQ (or Braai as we call it here) on the beach and I WILL miss the cold and dark UK on Xmas day for example

Stay objective = that is key

And depending on your age, if you like many on this forum don't trust politicians 100% and they are now admitting that the UK has another 6 of cra*p coming its way, what do you think the real number is?

12 years, maybe forever? i.e. things will never go back to the good old days

My OP is aimed at your people to objectively consider their future and for the same time and effort is there a better place for them to spend their time - from what is now an outside perspective, the UK seems on its way down big time and one of the biggest reasons like US, Spain, Ireland etc, is because of house prices LOL!!!

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Exactly my experience in 10-years plus in Asia and years before around the world.

Leaving ChavUK was the best thing I ever did.

I traveled a lot before before I left UK, but now I am permanently abroad - ChavUK seems even worse when I arrive back for a couple of weeks

Don't know if its getting worse or if I am now more aware of it?

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I live most of the year in Hungary, as I am engaged to be married to a Hungarian lady, and as I work remotely online, I am able to visit the UK whenever I want (I spend about a quarter of the year there with relatives). The good thing about this is I am able to exploit the advantage of receiving a British salary in a country where average salary is about seven thousand a year. We are planning to buy a house with land in a village near the capital - something I could never dream of doing in the UK. Without wanting to sound mysognistic, I also don't believe I would have had a chance to find such a pretty, charming and intelligent woman as my fiancee in England - when I met women like that in England, it always seemed to be an unspoken subtext that I wasn't good enough for them (ie, not rich or good looking enough or preferably both).

I would say the disadvantages are the unfamiliarity of everything, the constant feeling of being a guest and foreigner, of not belonging, and missing friends and family.

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London for 38 years - Surrey for 10 years and Cape Town for last 2 years

I wouldn't recommend South Africa for everyone for sure and depending on individual circumstances EU alternatives are far easier

try Yorkshire ;)

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Friendly people in Yorkshire from my experience - not too sure about the longer term prospects in the North of England though

It is not going to disappear, but investment in the future? Down South or overseas will be the trend i suspect

there's an extant if not spectacular set of white collar industries, consultancies etc, but true not somewhere for ambition, yet

once it becomes and extension of the south via HS2 it will be better

however it has genuine quality of life notwithstadning professional opportunities

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£24k + £12k

So to sum up, if both you and your partner have a good income for a few years. Followed by partner having good income and you still having an income. Then you can live a pretty good life. Well no surprise there! I think very few people will be both earning in the 20-30k range AND have a partner doing the same.

Honestly it is possible to live a very good quality of life in the UK, but it requires you to have a partner and at least one of you to be earning well. If you can earn a combined income of over 30k with two tax free allowances, and obviously both paying lower band tax on another few k of income then you are doing much better than a single person on 30k.

I think the main point here is it's much worse for young single people because many won't even be earning over 20k and will be single, most entry level office jobs these days just pay minimum wage or close to it

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Gated communities etc, are a reality in some parts of SA for sure, but not where I live

There are loads of gated communities here in China, it's mostly a show of wealth rather than protection. It's a show of wealth and secondly it also gives you quieter surroundings often with nice park like features, water fountains, benches, flowers and trees.

You pay three times as much in rent just to live in one of those gated communities as opposed to a normal apartment which still has an electronic key for the building door so it's just as safe. But I would prefer living in a gated community because of the park features and quieter atmosphere.

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I was happy in the UK (London) but I moved to Australia just over a year ago for other reasons.

It is tough building a new life - new job, make new friends, establish new routines and get to know a new place. It gets easier over time and it is rewarding once you start to feel more 'at home'.

A big problem is house prices - they are more out of reach in Aus than in the UK! Places I would look to buy in London are a lot cheaper than places I would look to buy here (Sydney), at current exchange rates & income multiples... (it hard to compare on a like for like basis).

Anyway if you get the opportunity to live/work abroad I would say take it as it is a great experience and you will always have your past friends/experiences etc. Just don't expect the grass to be greener cos it ain't.

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I lived in West Yorkshire a long time but left in 2008. I wasn't far from the 7/7 bombers. I think it's best days are behind it. Then spent 2 years in Scotland in Moray which I liked a lot. Lack of traffic, unspoilt beaches, countryside, friendly people, etc. Though it was cold. Mid-December the small loch behind our house froze and wasn't clear of ice until March. A dose of partner family sickness ended that and we are now in Cheshire and back amongst people and traffic. I think if we had moved here from Yorkshire I might have thought it was much better than I do now, I've been spoilt by Scotland. Scotland depends on what Salmond does. His arc of prosperity is a bit worrying if he thinks that more debt is the answer to everything.

Are people comparing the UK against other countries now are making the mistake of not looking at the longer term? In the UK work and supporting yourself is being discouraged. Immigration is being encouraged. Last week they decided it was going to take 7 instead of 5 years to clear the deficit. All that time the debt will grow as will the interest payments on it. There has yet to be any discussion of cuts to pay the debt down. The public are being led to believe that a few years of pain will solve everything - it won't. The future is an overcrowded hell hole where anyone who does the right thing is going to have to pay for those that don't. Increased taxes and means tested everything including eventually the NHS.

I would say that anyone who has or is planning to have children is being cruel to them staying in the UK. Unless you are very very wealthy and think you can stay that way, flee while you can.

Maybe we should have a new section on the forum for people to discuss their experiences abroad. It could be far more useful than discussing a few pounds off the price of a house in this country. Is "Overseas property investment" really appropriate for an HPC site? That could be changed and merged or the threads in something like the little used "Market Psychology" be merged to other places and a replacement with something like "Living Abroad", "Overseas Living", "Fleeing the UK". Then round up all the threads like this into it.

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I would say that anyone who has or is planning to have children is being cruel to them staying in the UK. Unless you are very very wealthy and think you can stay that way, flee while you can.

Maybe we should have a new section on the forum for people to discuss their experiences abroad. It could be far more useful than discussing a few pounds off the price of a house in this country. Is "Overseas property investment" really appropriate for an HPC site? That could be changed and merged or the threads in something like the little used "Market Psychology" be merged to other places and a replacement with something like "Living Abroad", "Overseas Living", "Fleeing the UK". Then round up all the threads like this into it.

Living abroad wouldn't be a bad topic title - This thread was moved from the main forum to anecdotal

I’m not too sure why???? - as moving abroad or staying in the UK has a lot to do with both Economics and House Prices (the main theme on this forum)

Especially aimed at younger people, my OP started with youngsters in mind I knew when I joined HPC just about 7 years back and mostly they are in crap situations and one (not the only) reason is high f*ckin house prices LOL!!!

If you can’t and probably may never have a decent home either through purchase or renting with a decent contract i.e. many countries have a stable rental sector unlike the UK – why not consider moving overseas, because the UK won’t be getting better anytime soon for many younger people

In fact I would go further – younger people will have to pick up the tab for people of my generation – if it wasn’t for X-factor there would be real riots in the UK (not the shopping of a couple of months back)

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I see the situation as this... Essentially you can be anywhere in the world and be unhappy with your lot. You can think things are going downhill or aren't quite as good as some "golden era" that you have in your mind. Arguably, yes, things in this country are getting stupid, but given some time, you could find just as many things that are truely ridiculous about Australia, France, USA, Canada...wherever you like.

The critical point is this. If you up sticks and go somewhere completely new, the onus is on you to be a success. You have to dispense with your lazy ways and put everything into creating a new life. This is why emigrating can be such a success - if the motivation and will to succeed is there. But while some succeed, some will end up feeling like a total failure, running back to the UK with their tail between their legs.

The trick is to look at what it is that inspires you to go elsewhere. Could what is at the root of your disatisfaction really be things of your own making - your own failings? Or is it really the environment you are in and this deteriorating country?

Am I making any sense? It's just that some people I now who've emigrated and came back pretty much typified the "grass is always greener" mentality. But at least it woke them up to what they can make of their lives here. And I don't just mean career-wise.

But what would I know, I've lived here all my life and I won't leave here unless they drag me out kicking and screaming. I love England. Not the obedient non-culture that is being socially engineered now, but its rich history and landscape.

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I'm actively looking to come back to the UK. I've spent 6 years working outside the UK in Europe, Africa and Asia and have just started to miss the pull of family and friends. I've been to places in the world I would be happy to live in, but family and friends swing it for me.

If you are thinking of moving somewhere else, I would say there are some key points to research that a lot of people miss before you go;

Infrastructure - Anyone that says the UK has anything other than extremely good infrastructure clearly hasn't travelled very far. I find any lack of decent internet very frustrating, its right up there with the lack of constant power, clean water and transport and supply links. Lack of any of these can be a real pain in the rear if you're used to only first world service.

Weather - Whilst it seems nice to have 20-40 deg C on a daily basis, I've found any kind of extreme or repetitive weather to be boring and find I miss the UK because we have a good mix of mild weather.

Local attitude - Its been mentioned before, but you're going somewhere where you are the outsider and all places have at least as many bigots as the UK, so there is a fair chance you'll have to deal with some hostility. Make sure you're thick skinned enough to deal with it.

Distance from family/friends - I said this would be my biggest reason for returning and its true. Fine if you're a loner, but if you have a decent relationship with the people around you then leaving them will be hard. Especially if you don't fit in right away.

All this will depend massicely on the type of person you are and your destination but these are the biggest factors I would consider now with hindsight.

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Am I making any sense? It's just that some people I now who've emigrated and came back pretty much typified the "grass is always greener" mentality. But at least it woke them up to what they can make of their lives here. And I don't just mean career-wise.

All making perfect sense

A couple of points I would add though, my OP is aimed more at younger people that are struggling or to be more precise are frustrated at the UK way of life and are disillusioned, especially when they feel little security in either rented BTL or are up to their necks in debt/workload because they have taken on a big mortgage for a cr*p property

As most of us on HPC know the UK housing market has been massively manipulated over the last 10 years or so, therefore a real crash hasn’t happened and it looks like inflation will take down house prices over the course of time, but that will take time

If you are 30 today, what maybe 40 years old before you can get a decent place to live? IMO life is too short

As for “tail between the legs bit” – depends on attitude, for example a person that leaves the UK with a “F*ck you plebs – I’m off to the sun, cos I’m superior and enjoy your sad lives” will definitely look foolish upon returning

A person that moves because their personal circumstances are leaving them discontent in the UK is a different matter

They may return to the UK (as often happens) they may not? They may return a better person, they may not. In 10 years time they may return and can buy a decent home at a fair price?

They may return and find that even the worst sh*thole in London is now over £1 million LOL!!!

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I'm actively looking to come back to the UK. I've spent 6 years working outside the UK in Europe, Africa and Asia and have just started to miss the pull of family and friends. I've been to places in the world I would be happy to live in, but family and friends swing it for me.

Excellent points and anyone thinking of leaving the UK should put some time into considering those points, not just your words, but the underlying points which is kind of individual to all of us, not a 'one size fits all'

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you and do you reckon you have benefited from your time abroad aka Had some great experiences?

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