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Labour On Target To Win Historic 4th General Election


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With the shock defeat of Ken Clarke and house prices again rising is it time to conceed that another election will be won by NuLabour? After all Ken was the big hitter, the rest are just wallys.

I have no idea what any of the candidates would really be like. It is difficult to tell how people will perform until they get into power. The media however have taken it upon themselves to decide such things for us these days. People like John Humphries have become self appointed political judges. They systematically destroy any politician they don't like with unfair questions, naked hostility, offensive remarks, destructive opinions etc. John Major was vilified like a mass murderer and yet he created the benign economic climate that Gordon Brown has milked. Gordon Brown has been praised from the roof tops for 10 years whilst public spending has gone out of control, pensions have been raided and industry has gone to the dogs.

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I'm not defending Blair, read my post carefully. Though he's not bad and admired around the world whether you like it or believe it or not.

Those other countries you mention are also well run though typically much smaller and/or younger. Iceland is smaller than Aberdeen.

Since you know everything about running a country, what's you're manifesto? Apart from being 'un' another country?

i voted for the party i dislike the least,

i dislike the tories about 70 % and i dislike labour about 100 %

i dislike the lib dems about 50 % so i vote for them.

lib dems are anti-war , pro PR and pro-renewable energy and those are my top 3 priorities so i would be foolish not to vote for them.

democracy is about a lot more than simply voting once in a blue moon,

i also agitate against the war and against HPI and against our absurd energy policy and against our electoral system with everyone i meet.

i am a 4 or 5 issues politician :-)

Edited by unamerican
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I promise to take an interest in who wins if anyone can tell me exactly what the Tories would have done differently over the last 8 years, apart from maybe the minimum wage. It doesn't matter who leads the Tories, the Tory interest has been in power for the past 26 years regardless.

What was the big debate about at the last election? Some yawning chasm between the parties on a major policy? Some huge difference of conscience and principle?

I seem to remember it went something like:

"We're the party of busines and we're strong on asylum seekers"

-"no you're not! We are!"

I laugh sadly to myself when I hear them talking about "putting clear blue water between us and Labour" - ie "someone's already got our policies, so there's no need for our party to exist, except for the furtherance of my career"

I very much doubt my life would be remotely different if the Tories had won any of the last few elections.

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I promise to take an interest in who wins if anyone can tell me exactly what the Tories would have done differently over the last 8 years, apart from maybe the minimum wage. It doesn't matter who leads the Tories, the Tory interest has been in power for the past 26 years regardless.

What was the big debate about at the last election? Some yawning chasm between the parties on a major policy? Some huge difference of conscience and principle?

I seem to remember it went something like:

"We're the party of busines and we're strong on asylum seekers"

-"no you're not! We are!"

I laugh sadly to myself when I hear them talking about "putting clear blue water between us and Labour" - ie "someone's already got our policies, so there's no need for our party to exist, except for the furtherance of my career"

I very much doubt my life would be remotely different if the Tories had won any of the last few elections.

you are probably right. although i do believe the tories would not have been as extreme in many areas as Labour.

Labour's social agenda has been breathtakingly Orwellian and I doubt the Tories would have spared the cash for all the extra nannies, social workers cops and jobsworths required to run a nascent totalitarian state.

the good thing about the Tories is that they are stingy buggers.

They might well want to implement a police state and lock everyone up but it is too damn expensive,

Labour like their Chinese Communist counterparts will spare no expense to mould the state in their likeness.

I think thats the crucial difference.

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I promise to take an interest in who wins if anyone can tell me exactly what the Tories would have done differently over the last 8 years, apart from maybe the minimum wage. font]

They would not have added about 1.5 million people to the public payroll.

They would not have stolen £5 billion from our pensions - each and every year.

They would not have raised taxes in every devious way possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the Tories - a group of tossers without doubt. Just that I think Labour and the LibDems are even bigger tossers.

no. its a good thread and generated a liveley debate. looking at the same housing cycle graph get a little tiresome.

NEVER question your threads.....

margret thatcher was the right person at that time to convince the public that selling all their national industry and services back to some of them was a good idea.

now we have poorer, more expensive services and much less in the way of real life assets such as happiness, children, low hours and affordable space.

political progression has so far failed us.

Or, of course, we could have carried on with the Labour way in the late 70s. Bodies left unburied, rubbish piled up to the first floor on the streets of London, power cuts, secondary picketing etc. Whilst no apologist for Thatcher (because what you said is true) I often wonder what would have happened if she had not won the 79 election.

There was a very real sense in those days that the country was sort of grinding to a halt.

A very succinct post catch22....sometimes you have to take a step back from it all and re-evaluate what we want our esteemed leaders to be.Like I said previously....why not David Beckham for President of the Universe....he looks good on TV so I'm told...

I don't disagree with your points but you/we/everyone might just as well accept it. We live in a media dominated, celebrity obsessed, mindless culture. The number of people who think about issues before they vote is relatively small.

I know it's daft - but it's all about looks - not substance.

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They would not have added about 1.5 million people to the public payroll.

No, they'd have left them on the dole, so the state would have been supporting them anyway. Just about sums it up - an apparent difference between Tory and Labour, but it amounts to the same thing in the end.

They would not have raised taxes in every devious way possible.

Didn't they basically invent the "stealth taxes" with VAT rises, NI rises and the fuel escalator?

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the Tories - a group of tossers without doubt. Just that I think Labour and the LibDems are even bigger tossers.

Or, of course, we could have carried on with the Labour way in the late 70s. Bodies left unburied, rubbish piled up to the first floor on the streets of London, power cuts, secondary picketing etc. Whilst no apologist for Thatcher (because what you said is true) I often wonder what would have happened if she had not won the 79 election.

There was a very real sense in those days that the country was sort of grinding to a halt.

I was knee-high at the time, so I can't really comment on the 70's. My family actually did well out of Thatch - my parents bought their council house. My Dad was basically a warehouseman, but all five of their children went to Uni (this was before everyone and their auntie went). But on our estate, we were the lucky ones, the majority were allowed to fall through the net, and essentially written off. School strikes basically condemmed the non-academic to a pointless time in education, as there was no extra-curricular activities, no work experience.

I voted Green at the lst election. I'm not particularly pious about the environment, but they were simply the only party who were a different colour rather than a different shade. I like their idea of a land tax too - it would shaft a lot of absentee landlords. B)B)

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Some of you have stated that you don't actually know what David Cameron stands for.

In his own words:

'The facts are stark. Our prison population has reached record levels, with 76,000 inmates, compared to 61,500 in 1997. Almost 70% of prisoners are illiterate. And all of the evidence shows that three elements do more than any other to prevent re-offending – secure relationships, employment and access to relevant skills and training.

So what should we do?

First – and this may sound odd – we need to build more prisons. Overcrowded jails are the sworn enemy of constructive prison regimes in general, and prison education in particular. If prisoners are locked in their cells for 23 hours a day – and many of them are – they cannot learn and are far less likely to mend their ways.'

and...

'There is no more serious step that a Government can take than to introduce detention without trial. Taking away the liberty of British citizens without first producing evidence, or having a proper process in front of a court, flies in the face of every notion of British justice. Yet this is what the Government is doing. Overstatement should be avoided – but this breaches the Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus and the Bill of Rights.'

and...

'Tony Blair is trying to push his anti-terrorism bill through Parliament. It includes proposals for detaining people without trial and "control orders" restricting their freedoms without first providing evidence or putting it in front of a court of law.

The Conservatives have real misgivings about this bill. We have improved as best we can in the House of Lords, but it is still deeply troubling. The right that no one should be able to take away our liberty without a trial goes to the heart of British justice.'

and...

'I am biased about the education chapter, because I helped to write it. But it contains a very clear and simple approach to improving standards in our schools. We will give parents more choice between schools. We will give heads more control over budgets, admissions and running their schools. We will have proper vocational alternatives for children who can be turned off by education. And, crucially, we will give them the final say about excluding pupils who disrupt the education of others. Discipline is one of the keys to a good education. After all, if the classroom is disrupted, no one can learn anything. I hope you will agree - that's not a bad start.'

and...

'At a recent surgery a young woman working just 21 hours a week told me how she was desperately worried about the revenue reclaiming money because of the shambles caused by the Chancellor’s hideously complex means tested family benefits. Everyone apart from the Chancellor realises that the system needs reform, but with paralysis at the heart of Government nothing will happen.

The same applies in other areas. Foundation Hospitals were turned from a good idea into a bureaucratic nightmare – by the Chancellor. The tax system becomes ever more complex – because of the Chancellor. The Police service and other public bodies are covered in red tape and targets – because of the Chancellor’s faith in centralisation. '

and finaly...

Interview with David Cameron in the Independent - 28/02/2005 (note the date)

David Cameron: 'Me as Tory leader? It's ridiculous; it's absurd. It's quite flattering. But it's just for the birds'

A week is a long time in politics. But maybe a defeat in a general election and many months of knowing that something and somebody needed to step up to the mark, changed all that.

:)

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Going back to the comments about the british system of democracy;

Look at Germany. They have just had an election fought bitterly between two main parties, Schroder's SPD and Merkel's CSU. The end result was a tiny majority for the CSU. In the UK this would usually lead to 4-5 years of a weak CSU govt, kept in check by a relatively strong SPD opposition.

In Germany they have ended up with a 'grand coalition' of the SPD and CSU, with lots of horse-trading weakening both party's positions. Because they oppose each other on so many issues there is a severe danger that the govt will be hamstrung on every major issue.

I think there are advantages to our system (and my German historian wife agrees).

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Apart from the minimum wage (which is a bit of a con because they just employ less people or make the existing ones do more work), can anyone name me some Labour policies which have benefitted middle england? or can you name some things which are better now in 2005 that they were in 1997?

I'm not saying labour is perfect, just wouldn't like the Tories back in.

No, they'd have left them on the dole, so the state would have been supporting them anyway. Just about sums it up - an apparent difference between Tory and Labour, but it amounts to the same thing in the end.

Didn't they basically invent the "stealth taxes" with VAT rises, NI rises and the fuel escalator?

I was knee-high at the time, so I can't really comment on the 70's. My family actually did well out of Thatch - my parents bought their council house. My Dad was basically a warehouseman, but all five of their children went to Uni (this was before everyone and their auntie went). But on our estate, we were the lucky ones, the majority were allowed to fall through the net, and essentially written off. School strikes basically condemmed the non-academic to a pointless time in education, as there was no extra-curricular activities, no work experience.

I voted Green at the lst election. I'm not particularly pious about the environment, but they were simply the only party who were a different colour rather than a different shade. I like their idea of a land tax too - it would shaft a lot of absentee landlords. B)B)

I think Green are a very good party, lets face it we need some fresh thinking in politics. If we carry on the way we are, house prices will be the least of our worries.

There was only one man that could take the tories forward and that was

Enoch Powell a true politician.

We know you're beliefs then, times change you know. :ph34r:

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At least Clarke opposed the Iraq war but he did have dodgy links with the tobacco industry. Cameron is being portrayed as "Tory Blair" - he may be able to spin well and win elections but may be completely lacking in substance like our Mr Blair.

Edited by penbat1
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Forget the war, that is not going to swing the next election. Taxes, maybe, Economy, maybe, health/welfare/pensions etc, maybe, too much state intervention, breath of fresh air, maybe.

I would bet a decent amount on a David Cameron leadership bid with Ken Clarke in a shadow front bench role winning the 2009 polls. Actually, come to think of it 2009 is a long way off - no wonder GB is getting twitchy.

Don't shoot me but I can see a return to big time politics by then for Portillo too once the tories are on the way out of the slough.

Btw, anyone thinking of voting liberal needs to read their manifestos and policy papers - nutty - they are the true socialists now and almost as illiberal as labour. I would rather vote labour than liberal (but tory over labour!). I also feel they do not attract the highest calibre of MP/politician (i have known a few and they compare badly with the competition in my experience (one I was at school with - absolutely clueless, now thinks he can change the world - dangerous).

Edited by Tempest
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Forget the war, that is not going to swing the next election. Taxes, maybe, Economy, maybe, health/welfare/pensions etc, maybe, too much state intervention, breath of fresh air, maybe.

Most people now agree that we need to stay in Iraq and finish the job. Apart from Iraq all of the above is what is really important. In 2009 we Tories shall indeed give this country the breath of fressh air it needs.

I would bet a decent amount on a David Cameron leadership bid with Ken Clarke in a shadow front bench role winning the 2009 polls. Actually, come to think of it 2009 is a long way off - no wonder GB is getting twitchy.

Well I don't know that Clarkie will be on the shadow cabinet. To be honest I think we need a whole raft of fresh young faces. Anyhow George Osbourne has already done a deal to be the Shadow Chancelor.

Don't shoot me but I can see a return to big time politics by then for Portillo too once the tories are on the way out of the slough.

I would love it if Portillo came back and though he was a bit unsure of Cameron a couple of months back. He has been making encouraging noises in just the last few days.

But if you really want to make a difference and your voice heard within the party. Then join up if you haven't already. Its only fifteen quid a year, you can put forward you views. They do get in touch to find out, and if it isn't too late you will be able to vote in the coming leadership election.

Too often people in this country moan about the government local or main, yet they can't even be bothered to vote in a general election. Apathy is the real curse. Its nice to see you have a real interest. Getting involved does not take up huge amounts of time. For years all I ever did was display the odd poster and do a bit of telling at the local voting centre.

But now that my degree is finished and my various business interests are virtually running themselves. I'm going to start going to the events and offering more help. Now is the time, not in four years. Heck I might even go to the Spring Ball in Bournmouth.

:D

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