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Apart from the minimum wage (which is a bit of a con because they just employ less people or make the existing ones do more work), can anyone name me some Labour policies which have benefitted middle england? or can you name some things which are better now in 2005 that they were in 1997?

- more police

- more prisons

- more people in prison

- tougher sentencing

- tough anti-terror laws

- ASBOs for yobs

- more surveillance cameras

- lie detector tests

- compulsory screening for drugs

- compulosry medical treatment for those considered a threat

- ID cards on the way

- parenting orders

- hassling parents of truants and criminalising them

isnt that what Middle England was wanting but even the Tories did not give them ?>

Labour delivered on all the illiberal wish lists of middle england.

dont those policies above make you in Middle England very happy ?

Edited by unamerican
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Anyone with the guts to not lie about the fact they may not have been the PC git stuck in the corner at a party saying no to everything remotely enjoyable.... gotta be worth a vote :)

naaa. don't like cameron he's a total chancer.

with ken out the way, i'd rather vote labour. i REALLY don't like david davis.

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- more police

- more prisons

- more people in prison

- tougher sentencing

- tough anti-terror laws

- ASBOs for yobs

- more surveillance cameras

- lie detector tests

- compulsory screening for drugs

- compulosry medical treatment for those considered a threat

- ID cards on the way

- parenting orders

isnt that what Middle England was wanting but even the Tories did not give them ?>

Labour delivered on all the illiberal wish lists of middle england.

dont those policies above make you in Middle England very happy ?

Actually us Tories are against many of the anti-terror laws that are proposed that would infringe on our rights such as trial without jury and being allowed not to give a comment to the police when being interviewed. We have debated as much in the commons. Much of the above has not come to pass because we were against it and because it smacked of communism.

Tories are for giving people the freedom to live their lives with as little interference from big government as possible. Instead of believing all your Liberal propaganda. Why don't you visit a few Tory sites and see what we really stand for. You may be surprised.

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Anyone with the guts to not lie about the fact they may not have been the PC git stuck in the corner at a party saying no to everything remotely enjoyable.... gotta be worth a vote :)

It is the only thing that made me pay any attention to the whole leader battle. If he gets the job i will have a closer look at the tories. The fact that he did not just lie out of habit suggests he might not be as bad as most... If he turned out to grow a few plants i would campaign for him

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Actually us Tories are against many of the anti-terror laws that are proposed that would infringe on our rights such as trial without jury and being allowed not to give a comment to the police when being interviewed. We have debated as much in the commons. Much of the above has not come to pass because we were against it and because it smacked of communism.

Tories are for giving people the freedom to live their lives with as little interference from big government as possible. Instead of believing all your Liberal propaganda. Why don't you visit a few Tory sites and see what we really stand for. You may be surprised.

you were in power for 18 years and were dreadful.

i dont need to visit any bloody websites to know what you are like.

why dont *you* try something different ?

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Typical HPC glass-half-empty reaction.

The future of British politics is now clear. Like St Bubb I now omniescently make my own call: the end of New Labour.

Cameron is socially liberal and (hopefully) also economically liberal (ie wanting to roll back the state and doing the exact opposite of what GB would do). In other words, exactly what's needed and what old-fogey Labour cannot deliver.

He'll be the first party leader of my generation (in truth, YOUNGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and apparently the first who thinks in the same way. So it always is in poltics - renewal and regeneration. In the UK sooner rather than later thanks to our vigorous democracy.

GB will tack instinctively left, it's in his genes. His flabby jowels and HPC will be looking fairly worn by the time the next election comes, and his RMT/TGWU/teachers' union comrades by then will have the most ardent of Guardian readers seething.

This leaves young David to occupy the centre ground winning over the numerous Bridget Jones set with little more than a knowing smirk and flash of the disabled baby and everyone else with the half-promise of a state-roll-back and some tax relief. To many of David's age group an occasional snifter is not unknown. More power to the man. But he's not gone too far in his pitch for the socially relaxed set. The lower reaches of his digestive system, one suspects, have a pure and natural role. Only.

Ken is dead. Long live Nu-Tory!

Edited by BoredTrainBuilder
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Typical HPC glass-half-empty reaction.

The future of British politics is now clear. Like St Bubb I now omniescently make my own call: the end of New Labour.

Cameron is socially liberal and (hopefully) also economically liberal (ie wanting to roll back the state and doing the exact opposite of what GB would do). In other words, exactly what's needed and what old-fogey Labour cannot deliver.

He'll be the first party leader of my generation (in truth, YOUNGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and apparently the first who thinks in the same way. So it always is in poltics - renewal and regeneration. In the UK sooner rather than later thanks to our vigorous democracy.

GB will tack instinctively left, it's in his genes. His flabby jowels and HPC will be looking fairly worn by the time the next election comes, and his RMT/TGWU/teachers' union comrades by then will have the most ardent of Guardian readers seething.

This leaves young David to occupy the centre ground winning over the numerous Bridget Jones set with little more than a knowing smirk and flash of the disabled baby and everyone else with the half-promise of a state-roll-back and some tax relief. To many of David's age group an occasional snifter is not unknown. More power to the man. But he's not gone too far in his pitch for the socially relaxed set. The lower reaches of his digestive system, one suspects, have a pure and natural role. Only.

Ken is dead. Long live Nu-Tory!

I agree that Labour are meat come the next election, and I've a feeling that Bliar knows this also. I am, by instinct, a rabid anti-Tory but think there is some merit in what you are saying.

Disappointed about Clarke, he's the kind of Tory I can dig. Cameron I'm not sure about, Fox is a complete no-hoper... but David Davies reeks of evil.

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so how would you vote?

what a stupid question. so blinkered,

like americans who only think they can vote for 2 parties.

i told you i vote lib dem.

do you think your only choice is between tory extremists or labour extremists ?

between neo-fascists and neo-communists chasing each other to the bottom in a race to totalitarianism, ?

i think that totalitarianism is what Middle England really wants.

best thing that could ever happen is a hung parliament (no crap jokes please ) and then PR

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what a stupid question. so blinkered,

like americans who only think they can vote for 2 parties.

i told you i vote lib dem.

do you think your only choice is between tory extremists or labour extremists ?

between neo-fascists and neo-communists chasing each other to the bottom in a race to totalitarianism, ?

i think that totalitarianism is what Middle England really wants.

best thing that could ever happen is a hung parliament (no crap jokes please ) and then PR

Ouch, it was just a question... personally I would like to see party voting scrapped altogether. You just vote for your local MP & the elected get together to vote for ministers etc. after the election. Otherwise the country is run by a single personality (ala Blair & Thatcher) rather than being anything close to a democracy.

I also think an MP's vote/influence should be weighted by the number of actual votes they got.

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its a pretty shit democracy though., you must admit .

labour got 35 % of the vote and that entitles Blair to act like a King or Pope ?

if you think *thats* democracy then you have little notion of what democracy

means.

If enough people got off their bums to vote, he would be out. Seems ok to me. Things obviouly have not got bad enough yet.

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In the end it's what people look like, not what they say that makes people vote.

So, thank god the Tories have finally got over their ugly stick phase.

Not saying either of these younger ones are particularly pretty, but at least they both have

1) full head of hair

2) no chance of carking it soon

3) no beer gut

4) can do 'compassion' and sound sincere at the same time, code for "good actors"

This means they are level pegging with Tony and Gordon. And even make T & G look a bit old and weary...

:D

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Ouch, it was just a question... personally I would like to see party voting scrapped altogether. You just vote for your local MP & the elected get together to vote for ministers etc. after the election. Otherwise the country is run by a single personality (ala Blair & Thatcher) rather than being anything close to a democracy.

I also think an MP's vote/influence should be weighted by the number of actual votes they got.

PR would be step in the right direction., one thing at a time old boy.

If enough people got off their bums to vote, he would be out. Seems ok to me. Things obviouly have not got bad enough yet.

but they fecking well did.

65 % voted against the evil murderin war-mongerin neo-communists and yet they still won.

and they still act as if 80 % voted *for* them.

cant you see the democracy is seriously flawed ?

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its a pretty shit democracy though., you must admit .

labour got 35 % of the vote and that entitles Blair to act like a King or Pope ?

if you think *thats* democracy then you have little notion of what democracy

means.

Not at all. Britain may have very many faults but a lot of that is due to the crap nature of its citizens. But being a shit democracy is not one of them. The UK does better (in my humble view) to balance the competing interests of its many and various interest groups than any other country I can readily name. At this point the Scandinavian countries are often thrown up, but they are much younger, are surprisingly violent and have exhorbitant beer prices. And they're bloody cold.

One area where we do let ourselves down is in education, especially history. You appear to be a good example.

Edited by BoredTrainBuilder
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Agreed on that. I voted Liberal for the first time the last election....and will probably do so again.

Not voted Labour since the "Winter of Discontent" always voted Conservative, apart from the last election when I voted LibDem [dispite them having a leader that makes them unelectable]And nodoubt I'll vote the same next time. Only thing I had against New Labour in 1997 was that I just knew Blaire was a two faced in sincere [email protected] if ever I saw one. Of course back then I did not know that he would be the murdering [email protected]@rd that he turned out to be.

Ken Clark was the only candidate that would have tempted me back to vote Conservative. Davis and Fox are right wing establishment types ready to jump in bed with the control freaks running the asylum. And Cameron is just another Blaire like clone, no dout with the same tendencies to send us down the road to a "Totalitarian State" like Davies and Fox.

Like I keep saying "they" make sure you don't really have real choices. :ph34r::rolleyes:

I reckon Cameron will end up leading the Tories, and nodoubt they will get into power the same way Nu Labour did, not because they are particulary like but because the sitting government are dispised. Nothing in politics really changes no matter whatever silver tounged New Deal is promised by the establish two party fix.

Edited by Catch22
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Britain's is the only bicameral parliament in most of the world of

which only one chamber is elected by the people.

Even the US can boast that.

Not to mention the archaic 'first past the post system' that

virtually guarantees a two party state.

IMO a two party state is only one better than a one party state

We were one of the last 'democracies' to allow women the vote.

ABB

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Not at all. Britain may have very many faults but a lot of that is due to the crap nature of its citizens. But being a shit democracy is not one of them. The UK does better (in my humble view) to balance the competing interests of its many and various interest groups than any other country I can readily name. At this point the Scandinavian countries are often thrown up, but ...drivel .....

One area where we do let ourselves down is in education, especially history. You appear to be a good example.

interesting you should chose history as your battle ground.

do you believe if we had a vibrant healthy democracy that we would have went to war against Iraq on a dossier of lies ?

do you think if we had a real democracy we would be allowing innocent men to be tortured in Uzbekistan with the aid of M16 ?

would a real democracy allow Tony Blair to dictate the timing of the last election ?

Who exactly is 'they'? Please tell.

perhaps its those violent scandanavians with their fiendish PR systems and expensive beer. not to mention their cold climate.

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Britain's is the only bicameral parliament in most of the world of

which only one chamber is elected by the people.

Even the US can boast that.

Not to mention the archaic 'first past the post system' that

virtually guarantees a two party state.

IMO a two party state is only one better than a one party state

We were one of the last 'democracies' to allow women the vote.

ABB

Right. But nonetheless the system has shown itself to be robust in balancing the various interests better than elesewhere.

It may be valid to argue that historically there may have been a bias to the aristocracy/theocracy but this is passing now. Sadly though most people don't want the UK to be a republic. We should elect a new people.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a two-party state, some vibrant democracies are only one party (Japan) and some sclerotic democracies have copious parties (Italy).

Britain was one of the first places in the world to recognise the concept of 'voting'. It was probably invented in Scotland.

Edited by BoredTrainBuilder
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Guest The Dude

naaa. don't like cameron he's a total chancer.

with ken out the way, i'd rather vote labour. i REALLY don't like david davis.

who gives a shite what you think......sorry LF...I am mummys boy....a total failure..please ignore that previous statement...

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