@contradevian Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Can't you summarise this into a pithy few lines about fat cat executives, greedy supermarkets, bankers and Fatcha? ____________ For any of the hard of thinking. What do they think would happen if supermarkets paid shelf-stackers £10/hour A) Shelf-stackers would have much more disposable income, supermarkets less profits and everyone would live happily ever after in a glorious land of milk and honey. B)Food costs would shoot up and whilst being able to pay council tax the shelf-stacker can't afford food and the increased spending power is short lived as more skilled workers already on £10/hr have to be paid more to stop them changing to a less demanding shelf-stacking job. These sorts of threads are always a BOGOF on bleeding hearts but permanently out of stock of pragmatism. The night shift on Tesco recently paid £10/11 an hour till Workfair came along. They were not asking for £10 an hour on that show, but a living wage of about £8.50 an hour. Sure supermarkets would be worse off but it would end the state subsidy of supermarkets via WTC (I'm not sure about HB especially in London). Retailers used to be able to pay living wages, and also enjoyed the big shed advantages of economies of scale, and logistics. Increasingly I find their pricing expensive, and erratic (sometimes getting a better deal at the local farm shop) and yet they still can't survive without the taxpayer. It can't be good for supermarkets to be little more than private front ends and mass employment vehicles for the state. This idea that workers wouldn't be able to afford the food is nonsense, though some re-education is required. 90% of the food that supermarkets sell, is a high profit, packaged rubbish, not essential at all to human existence, Its only tessential to Kellogs, Nestle. Nabisco etc bottom line. The other day I saw a packaged baked potato with a cheese filling being sold. I mean what is the point? (This is another subject entirely) http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=256638815 £1.37 for a baked potato and cheese. It can't cost more than 10p to make, and they need a subsidy. They are either trying it on, or incompetent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potemkin Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well worth 9 minutes to watch this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/highlights/default.stm Big business subsidised via the state as the cost of living is so high. Doesn't mention housing specifically or inflation but they are the elephants in the room. Feel very sorry for these people. I do most of my shopping at a local independent but get a bi-monthly order of dried goods from Tesco. I think I'll try to move away from Tesco after watching this and thinking some more on it. If you don't have time read this synopsis: Britain is utterly ******ed. He is right, although this is the culmination of a deliberate policy of social engineering to make a sector of society dependant on the state. Paul Mason was not so critical of it when the Labour government were in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Only fools would work for them now, in the 90s i used to get a lot more money working stacking shelves at the weekend use to get 2 times the hourly wage 12 pound used to work 16 hours a week and walk out with almost 200 pounds. The film has showed me how dumb people are if they are working all hours on min wage and still in debt there is no point working.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Only fools would work for them now, in the 90s i used to get a lot more money working stacking shelves at the weekend use to get 2 times the hourly wage 12 pound used to work 16 hours a week and walk out with almost 200 pounds. The film has showed me how dumb people are if they are working all hours on min wage and still in debt there is no point working.. Yup me too. Back in the 90's did these kind of jobs "between contracts." You could live, exist, pay rent, go out and run a car. Not any more. Something is very, very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Where is the cost of living not so high now? What are the REAL ALTERNATIVES? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 The figure 5.6% is that after wages have been taken out? and a store with 30 staff will take more than £1000 per hour But again I don't have any figures of my own so the best thing I can do is shut up. I understand those are just random numbers you picked...but just to put things in numbers.. So, if Tesco charges £1000 ex VAT (assuming food, but in reality, £1000 taking is more like £950 after VAT as some goods are VATable), then paying out rent, marketing, CEO salary, employee salaries, lawyers, accountants, business rates, interest, bank charges, it has 5.6% left (pre tax). So, additional £4 per hour per staff while holding selling price constant will result in Tesco... put in more machines as a £4 additional wages will cost Tesco £4.51 (thanks to employer NI, charged by the Uber-rent seeker of you know who). I think those self checkout machine cost about £10k each (a source says $125000 for 4 lane checkout, probably have about 8 kiosks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yup me too. Back in the 90's did these kind of jobs "between contracts." You could live, exist, pay rent, go out and run a car. Not any more. Something is very, very wrong. i remember everyone wanted to stack the money was good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) I heard that Tesco's could double workers salaries from 7 to 14 quid an hour but they'd have to increase prices by 10% to cover. Always remember that the disgusting rich not only want more they also want the poor to have nothing. I would have thought that a person on a till can scan one item per second so 60 items a minute. Lets say it's only 30 items a minute because they stop when the customer has to put their pin in. So that's 1800 items a hour. So less than a quarter of a pence per item to pay an extra 400 pence. I realize that there are others to pay in the back ground 3 to every one on the till possibly? Edited February 25, 2012 by gf3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 The night shift on Tesco recently paid £10/11 an hour till Workfair came along. They were not asking for £10 an hour on that show, but a living wage of about £8.50 an hour. Sure supermarkets would be worse off but it would end the state subsidy of supermarkets via WTC (I'm not sure about HB especially in London). Retailers used to be able to pay living wages, and also enjoyed the big shed advantages of economies of scale, and logistics. Increasingly I find their pricing expensive, and erratic (sometimes getting a better deal at the local farm shop) and yet they still can't survive without the taxpayer. It can't be good for supermarkets to be little more than private front ends and mass employment vehicles for the state. Until the land rent issued is resolved, the additional payment will be quickly absorbed by rising rents/house price as the workers think they are clever by outbidding the next guy on rent/house prices. I suppose back then we didn't have Amazon and the online retailers or Ocado and rents (which indirectly means Business rates) were lower. Tesco will survive fine without the tax credits, even if that means they need to put in a few more machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Yup me too. Back in the 90's did these kind of jobs "between contracts." You could live, exist, pay rent, go out and run a car. Not any more. Something is very, very wrong. Something is very, very wrong......I worked out on this calculator what I earned in my first job after leaving school at 16 when no government extras were paid, I paid good housekeeping, saved a bit, went out alot....still I felt rich in comparison to minimum wage today that requires tax payers top ups in cash, rents and CT to live just a basic life........a semi-detached Victorian house with large garden in EN4 was ~£120,000. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html Edited February 25, 2012 by winkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) I heard that Tesco's could double workers salaries from 7 to 14 quid an hour but they'd have to increase prices by 10% to cover. Always remember that the disgusting rich not only want more they also want the poor to have nothing. Kind of, yes. Tesco's turnover is 60bn and wage cost around 6.8bn. So, yes, it could double the wages paid by increasing the price by about 11.3% on a simple level, or probably more like 15% after taking into account VAT, employer NI and benefits. However, I suppose if only the floor workers get the increased (which is unlikely of course as the supervisor will want to be paid more than the checkouts and it ripples on), then the 10% figure is about right. Edited February 25, 2012 by easy2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric pebble Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well worth 9 minutes to watch this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/highlights/default.stm Big business subsidised via the state as the cost of living is so high. Doesn't mention housing specifically or inflation but they are the elephants in the room. Feel very sorry for these people. I do most of my shopping at a local independent but get a bi-monthly order of dried goods from Tesco. I think I'll try to move away from Tesco after watching this and thinking some more on it. If you don't have time read this synopsis: Britain is utterly ******ed. SUPERB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) i remember everyone wanted to stack the money was good I was never a shelf stacker, but I was periodically a container filler for a logistics provider for M&S. Kept me really fit, though technique was part of it (railing out a container and grabbing half rails of clothing to fill). One of those roles where many sent along by the agency couldn't last a day. If you were too slow and held every one back, you were not asked back. Edited February 25, 2012 by "Steed" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwindow Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 So how do we get things to change? If it was possible to make a decent living in the past on a supermarket wage without benefits, how can we get the system to change back? It's not going to be quick or easy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmf Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 So why is the other option of Shareholders/Big Business taking less in profits out of the question? They ALL need breaking up into county-wide chunks and profits reinvested within counties/local communities anyway I didn't say that was out of the question. Look beyond polemics for a moment. I said that if you took +all+ the profit out it wouldn't be enough. There are more fundamental problems beyond the supermarkets making too much profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Until the land rent issued is resolved, the additional payment will be quickly absorbed by rising rents/house price as the workers think they are clever by outbidding the next guy on rent/house prices. It could partly be resolved by stopping people grabbing all the properties, and putting "hotels" on them, as in Monopoly. Not going to happen though. This country is all about supporting and enriching the land "owners." Used to be so different when the landed gentry were forced to sell their country piles to the National Trust, its very much more difficult when the average `Joe Voter` has ten or more BTL's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I was never a shelf stacker, but I was periodically a container filler for a logistics provider for M&S. Kept me really fit, though technique was part of it (railing out a container and grabbing half rails of clothing to fill). One of those roles where many sent along by the agency couldn't last a day. If you were too slow and held every one back, you were not asked back. Was this in Neasden by any chance? I used to drive on of those wagons..... M&S Marble Arch used to have a permanent delivery run One wagon out one wagon in practically 24/7 they turner over so much there. Did it for a while until I went to work for Safeway and then Ken Morrison (by default) who then exported my job from London to Northamptonshire where he could pay an Eastern European about half of what he paid me. I don't blame Ken Morrison they were all at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Was this in Neasden by any chance? I used to drive on of those wagons..... M&S Marble Arch used to have a permanent delivery run One wagon out one wagon in practically 24/7 they turner over so much there. Did it for a while until I went to work for Safeway and then Ken Morrison (by default) who then exported my job from London to Northamptonshire where he could pay an Eastern European about half of what he paid me. I don't blame Ken Morrison they were all at it. Nah it was in Leicester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 There used to be something called: The Iron Law of Wages ... asserting (amongst other things) that, no matter how poor they got, wages would always be enough to sustain the life and procreation of the workers. Now it's wages plus benefits plus willingness to hold your feet to the fire with personal debt, to reach the same subsistence level. It means wages on their own can quite happily reach levels that do not sustain life and procreation. That is, they would lead to the death or inability to produce a family of an unsubsidised employee. Socialism and debt and crony corporate fascism: the very pavement of good intentions. Lets not forget that when money is transferred in this way, there is an administrative cost which eliminates some of the income in the process of being transferred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sad The gap between top and bottom need to be reduced. However increasing their wages may only push up the cost of their rent and leave them no better off. Because rent prices are set at what the market can afford increase what people can afford landlords can charge more. If you increased the wages at Tesco, profits would fall, meaning less money for all those pension funds through dividends. Transferring money from the uber wealthy is a good goal to aim for though. I read that 300k would be what a director would be earning for a ftse company if their pay had stayed in line with the norm from about 1980. How to achieve that though? Where are all the Quakers who used to lead our companies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potemkin Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well worth 9 minutes to watch this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/highlights/default.stm Big business subsidised via the state as the cost of living is so high. Doesn't mention housing specifically or inflation but they are the elephants in the room. Feel very sorry for these people. I do most of my shopping at a local independent but get a bi-monthly order of dried goods from Tesco. I think I'll try to move away from Tesco after watching this and thinking some more on it. If you don't have time read this synopsis: Britain is utterly ******ed. He is right, although this is the culmination of a deliberate policy of social engineering to make a sector of society dependant on the state. Paul Mason was not so critical of it when the Labour government were in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 He is right, although this is the culmination of a deliberate policy of social engineering to make a sector of society dependant on the state. Paul Mason was not so critical of it when the Labour government were in power. Are you sure it is deliberate social engineering? Why attribute this to anything other than a result of globalisation and unintended consequence? To say that this was all part of some deliberate well thought out plan is giving someone a lot of credit for coming up with a plan, and seeing it through to fruition. I havent yet met that sort of competence from Government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) If you increased the wages at Tesco, profits would fall, meaning less money for all those pension funds through dividends. Transferring money from the uber wealthy is a good goal to aim for though. I read that 300k would be what a director would be earning for a ftse company if their pay had stayed in line with the norm from about 1980. How to achieve that though? Where are all the Quakers who used to lead our companies? Nah...don't you think the big corporates pay as little as they can get away with paying....they then make threats such as we will move overseas, or invest our cash elsewhere, we will automate more, we will work existing staff harder.......you need us more than we need you attitude, governments fall for it, so they both work out a cosy deal together that suits them both....or am I being too cynical. Edited February 25, 2012 by winkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 A very simple solution would be to link pay the top with pay at the bottom- then all that 'talent' at the top would dedicated to raising the pay of the lowest paid in order to increase their own income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 A very simple solution would be to link pay the top with pay at the bottom- then all that 'talent' at the top would dedicated to raising the pay of the lowest paid in order to increase their own income. I like the idea but I think they would employ contract workers to run the supermarket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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