The Knimbies who say No Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 love it.let the peasants eat cake. all the fancy promises of yesteryear have got a bit out hand haven't they?I'm amazed that people as intelligent as doctors can't see that it's unsustainable. My experience of university life told me that the med students were fractionally smarter than the law students, who were the thickest. Doctors earn way too much. The best are excellent, of course, and the general standard is high. But £110k is OTT from the public purse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Bart' Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The association rejected cuts to doctor’s pensions despite warning that some hospitals are so financially stretched that patient safety can no longer be guaranteed Nice to see that the doctors have their priorities straight (i.e me, myself and I). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Nice to see that the doctors have their priorities straight (i.e me, myself and I). Hypocritic oath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 We don't have enough doctors, and not enough junior posts are being made when graduates leave university. They're all going to the USA. Do you have to wait 3 weeks to see a doctor? That's not good enough when the population is growing. If the the general practitioners pay came down a bit, then more junior places can be paid for. It is the same with teachers, there was one anecdote that the school couldn't wait for a teacher to retire, because the money she was being paid, could pay for two new teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticky fingers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9023934/Doctors-may-strike-over-cuts-to-their-pension-pots.html 'The British Medical Association, which represents 130,000 doctors and medical students, said two thirds of its members support industrial action which could cripple hospitals and GP surgeries throughout the country. The association rejected cuts to doctor’s pensions despite warning that some hospitals are so financially stretched that patient safety can no longer be guaranteed and that “accidents will happen”. Senior government figures said the reductions in their pensions were “modest” and in line with other public sector staff. A government source said: “It seems a bit rich for doctors to be complaining about cuts and patient care when they leave the NHS as millionaires.” Over the past decade, the average consultant has seen their pay rise by 54 per cent, with less qualified doctors enjoying a rise of 30 per cent. Their pay has recently been frozen, with the average GP now earning about £110,000. Under controversial reforms introduced by Labour, they won the right to opt out of working at weekends and at night. They also enjoy generous final salary pensions, with figures released by the Department of Health showing that a typical NHS doctor retiring at 60 will receive a pension of more than £48,000 a year for life. In addition, they receive a tax-free lump sum of around £143,000 on retirement, a pension scheme that would cost more than £1.7million in the private sector. A spokesman for the Department of Health said the current situation was “unsustainable”. “Doctors and consultants who are among the highest earners in the NHS have benefited hugely from the current final salary scheme arrangements compared to other staff groups,” the spokesman said. ' love it.let the peasants eat cake. all the fancy promises of yesteryear have got a bit out hand haven't they?I'm amazed that people as intelligent as doctors can't see that it's unsustainable. It's not possoble to have an intelligent debate with those who know nothing about it. Where you aware that their pension scheme has already been reformed to take account of changing demographics? Hence the new '2008 NHS pension scheme'. The NHS pension scheme has been in surplus ( i.e.the chancellor takes in more in contributions than is paid out) for the last decade. Any future increases in costs are automatically met by the contributors of the scheme rather than the taxpayer. At the end of the day, if someone is going to shaft you again and again, you can just bend over and take it, or do something about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaynewcastle Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Surprised no one has said yet that we don't need doctors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hovis Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 We don't have enough doctors, and not enough junior posts are being made when graduates leave university. They're all going to the USA. Do you have to wait 3 weeks to see a doctor? That's not good enough when the population is growing. If the the general practitioners pay came down a bit, then more junior places can be paid for. It is the same with teachers, there was one anecdote that the school couldn't wait for a teacher to retire, because the money she was being paid, could pay for two new teachers. Cut the salary and create more training places. It's the other extreme with midwives where there are loads of training places but the salary and career development is non-existent so there is a high departure level after a few years. Time for a bit of fairness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Surprised no one has said yet that we don't need doctors Oh, alright then... Hi, Cecil. I have come across a number of seemingly credible reports suggesting that every time doctors go on strike the overall death rate goes down, in some cases quite precipitously. Can you ascertain if this in fact is the case or if some other factors are at work here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Surprised no one has said yet that we don't need doctors Didn't the ancient chinese only pay their doctors when they were well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 They also enjoy generous final salary pensions, with figures released by the Department of Health showing that a typical NHS doctor retiring at 60 will receive a pension of more than £48,000 a year for life. In addition, they receive a tax-free lump sum of around £143,000 on retirement, a pension scheme that would cost more than £1.7million in the private sector. 1,700,000 - 143,000 = 1,557,000 1,577,000 / 48,000 = 32 years of pension, that's assuming zero return on the remaining balance ever year. Assume a 2% turn and the pot could last 50+ years Have annuities really become that awful? Do retired Doctors routinely live to be 110? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The average consultant earns £200,000 pa. Frankly I'd rather have 4 consultants on £50K than one on £200K. There might be a tiny quality difference but the medical benefit of seeing the doctor earlier and more often would far out-weigh that difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCasaSuCasa Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I think part of the problem is that the Government restricts the supply of new doctors (which is why we have to recruit from abroad). There are plenty of bright, hard working students that get the top grades and want to study medicine but cannot get a place on a university course. There are only 13 medical schools in the country. Allow people who get the grades to study medicine, increase supply, reduce the costs. Simples! According to this page, the UK is 55th in the ranking for physicians per capita (U.S. is 52nd) Edited January 19, 2012 by MiCasaSuCasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Surprised no one has said yet that we don't need doctors You can't let them hold you to ransom though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) This stupid governement has once again demonstrated why it's doomed to fail. They should have waited untill the NHS reforms were fully implemented before playing the zero sum pension game. Now militant NHS staff will obstruct both objectives. Genius. Edited January 19, 2012 by PopGun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
switters Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Didn't the ancient chinese only pay their doctors when they were well? Almost certainly apocryphal but still interesting. I treat people with Chinese Medicine and am also a doctor. Acupuncture ( the chinese way) gets incredible results and lets the body self heal: it really is preventative. Prevention in Western Medicine tends to mean sticking you on pills for the rest of your life..... Money.....money ..... Money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libspero Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The average consultant earns £200,000 pa. Frankly I'd rather have 4 consultants on £50K than one on £200K. There might be a tiny quality difference but the medical benefit of seeing the doctor earlier and more often would far out-weigh that difference. For surgeons and specialists I could understand salaries worth well over six figures. £110k for a run of the mill GP working 9-5 and handing out smarties to pensioners.. talk about a sinecure! I'd like to see pharmacists have more powers to prescribe basic prescription drugs over the counter.. that would take some of the pressure off our overworked GPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufflesTheGuineaPig Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Surprised no one has said yet that we don't need doctors We need doctors. That's why their pay has risen in line with the cost of living. Unlike everyone elses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbux Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Almost certainly apocryphal but still interesting. I treat people with Chinese Medicine and am also a doctor. Acupuncture ( the chinese way) gets incredible results and lets the body self heal: it really is preventative. Prevention in Western Medicine tends to mean sticking you on pills for the rest of your life..... Money.....money ..... Money It still amazes me that prevention doesn't mean testing vitamin and mineral levels regularly and supplementing/changing diet accordingly. Watching the Channel 4 programme 'The Food Hospital' confirmed to me that this is how we should be approaching prevention/treatment, but like you say it's all about money. Vit D3 levels are well below recommended in a large percentage of the population, and just fixing that alone could probably save the NHS a fortune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) think it's more to do with bond yields being so low.a final salary scheme providing an income of £48k means you need roughly 1.7 mill aside to provide that income. OK, so not equivalent to a private pension where the individual pensioner has to go out and buy an annuity then edit: I mentioned this because any pension scheme that needs £1,500,000 to deliver £50k of income over a pensioners' expected lifetimes would be a joke. Assuming that is you can use up the capital. If you can't use up the capital, fair enough Edited January 19, 2012 by Charlton Peston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Always under impressed by GPs. If there's something wrong with you, you can almost always diagnose yourself on the internet (this is kind of what they do anyway). The GP is really just the barrier to the drugs you might require. Had an accident in France. The cost for an ambulance, opening a medical centre, a doctor, nurse and receptionist for about 2 hrs .... under 200 EUR ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 We don't have enough doctors, and not enough junior posts are being made when graduates leave university. They're all going to the USA. Do you have to wait 3 weeks to see a doctor? That's not good enough when the population is growing. If the the general practitioners pay came down a bit, then more junior places can be paid for. It is the same with teachers, there was one anecdote that the school couldn't wait for a teacher to retire, because the money she was being paid, could pay for two new teachers. The fact "they're all going to the USA" suggests we are not paying them enough. I am not sure why the numbers of junior places is necessarily contingent on the pay of GPs. Your comparison with teachers is risible. Any graduate can train to be a teacher. It takes a year. If they had a good candidate (and wished to do away with petty tick box type training) they could reduce this to a few months. It takes the best part of a decade to train a doctor. You seem to be living in a dream world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The NHS pension scheme has been in surplus ( i.e.the chancellor takes in more in contributions than is paid out) for the last decade. Any future increases in costs are automatically met by the contributors of the scheme rather than the taxpayer. That's meaningless. We didn't have many doctors in past and we have loads now so the cashflows are net positive. Is the current NPV of the future payments covered? If not, then the future taxpayer will have to fund the difference .... unless we continue to increase the number of doctors (but that's a ponzi scheme). Also, who are the 'contributors of the scheme' .... if not the taxpayer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The fact "they're all going to the USA" suggests we are not paying them enough. We don't underpay, the Americans massively overpay for medical care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 We don't underpay, the Americans massively overpay for medical care. Semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 We don't underpay, the Americans massively overpay for medical care. The American system is a massive pyramid too. The schools charge so much that the doctors have to be paid so high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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