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I'm guessing we won't declare any wars until we've got our planes.

We don't need planes. We can use our fists.

Dulce et Decorum Est
Wilfred Owen, 1893 - 1918
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,

Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,

Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs

And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots

But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;

Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots

Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,

Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;

But someone still was yelling out and stumbling

And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime...

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,

As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,

He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace

Behind the wagon that we flung him in,

And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,

His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood

Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud

Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est

Pro patria mori.

Edited by 200p
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You do realise that the UK spent billions building a new airbase and roads in the Falklands? The three Typhoons based their could almost wipe out what's left of the Argentinian air-force in a few minutes. They lost 3/4 of their aircraft in the 1982 war and haven't replaced them.

The Falklands is the biggest aircraft carrier in the world.

The aircraft carriers in the Falklands were tiny with short range, low speed aircraft. The new carriers with Typhoons or the F-35 would be an order of magnitude more effective.

yes but there are only two of them.

plus you also have other "stress" points in the gulf and the meditteranean.

it would be better to have more, and smaller to provide better coverage.

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The aircraft carriers in the Falklands were tiny with short range, low speed aircraft. The new carriers with Typhoons or the F-35 would be an order of magnitude more effective.

Hmmmm

That's if the engines don't catch fire and it can actually get into the air.....

Plus the biggest issue is our carriers have no AEW which means in effect they are pretty 5h1t.

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Plus the biggest issue is our carriers have no AEW which means in effect they are pretty 5h1t.

Yes, but this time they're not intending to fight anyone who can shoot back. Though that does rather make the whole 'stealth' thing a bit pointless.

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Yes, but this time they're not intending to fight anyone who can shoot back. Though that does rather make the whole 'stealth' thing a bit pointless.

What a stealthy aircraft carrier????

As long as our carriers are operating alongside the US who can provide AEW everything will be fine.... Although it will be interesting to see what happens to the 2nd carrier when it's completed. Are we just going to keep it in a dry dock?

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What a stealthy aircraft carrier????

As long as our carriers are operating alongside the US who can provide AEW everything will be fine.... Although it will be interesting to see what happens to the 2nd carrier when it's completed. Are we just going to keep it in a dry dock?

Carriers don't operate alone. Typically as part of a battlegroup. which includes destroyers such as the type 45, which have competent air defence capability. In addition they will have helicopter based AEW, so this is not a big issue.

Interesting to see what they do with the second ship, I guess it depends whether they are contracted right the way up to the outfit stage. My guess is that it will be sold.

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I doubt very much whether the second carrier will be mothballed, It's a ruse IMO. An island needs a competent navy and an accomplished air force. I'm looking forward to seeing 2 fully operational Royal Navy carriers with plenty of F35B's on deck. My only concern is how long it's going to take to reach that point.

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Based on what information?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/f35-fighter-jets-grounded-while-investigation-into-engine-fire-is-carried-out-9602437.html

The world's most advanced fighter jet has been grounded by US military investigators following an engine fire, it was revealed yesterday.

Hopes of seeing the world's most advanced fighter jet make its debut in Britain faded last week faded after the US military refused to allow it to fly while its investigation continued. The US F-35 joint strike fighter, in which Britain has a stake, had been expected to be the star attraction at this weekend's Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford, which ends today. It was also expected to star at this week's Farnborough Air Show, opening tomorrow.

But an aborted take-off in which part of the engine ripped out through the top of the plane and caused a fire, as an F-35 was preparing to take to the skies from an air base in Florida last month, resulted in the entire fleet being grounded.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-allies-got-stuck-with-the-worlds-worst-new-warplane-5c95d45f86a5

Owing to heavy design compromises foisted on the plane mostly by the Marine Corps, the F-35 is an inferior combatant, seriously outclassed by even older Russian and Chinese jets that can fly faster and farther and maneuver better. In a fast-moving aerial battle, the JSF “is a dog … overweight and underpowered,” according to Winslow Wheeler, director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Project on Government Oversight in Washington, D.C.

And future enemy planes, designed strictly with air combat in mind, could prove even deadlier to the compromised JSF.

It doesn’t really matter how smoothly Lockheed and the government’s work on the new warplane proceeds. Even the best-manufactured JSF is a second-rate fighter where it actually matters — in the air, in life-or-death combat against a determined foe. And that could mean a death sentence for American pilots required to fly the vulnerable F-35.

The F-35's inferiority became glaringly obvious five years ago in a computer simulation run by John Stillion and Harold Scott Perdue, two analysts at RAND, a think tank in Santa Monica, California. Founded in 1948, RAND maintains close ties to the Air Force. The air arm provides classified data, and in return RAND games out possible war scenarios for government planners.

In Stillion and Perdue’s August 2008 war simulation, a massive Chinese air and naval force bore down on Beijing’s longtime rival Taiwan amid rising tensions in the western Pacific. A sudden Chinese missile barrage wiped out the tiny, outdated Taiwanese air force, leaving American jet fighters based in Japan and Guam to do battle with Beijing’s own planes and, hopefully, forestall a bloody invasion.

In the scenario, 72 Chinese jets patrolled the Taiwan Strait. Just 26 American warplanes — the survivors of a second missile barrage targeting their airfields — were able to intercept them, including 10 twin-engine F-22 stealth fighters that quickly fired off all their missiles.

That left 16 of the smaller, single-engine F-35s to do battle with the Chinese. As they began exchanging fire with the enemy jets within the mathematical models of the mock conflict, the results were shocking.

America’s newest stealth warplane and the planned mainstay of the future Air Force and the air arms of the Navy and Marine Corps, was no match for Chinese warplanes. Despite their vaunted ability to evade detection by radar, the JSFs were blown out of the sky. “The F-35 is double-inferior,” Stillion and Perdue moaned in their written summary of the war game, later leaked to the press.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/07/12/is-it-time-to-kill-lockheed-martins-3986-billion-f.aspx

Thanks to an engine fire, Lockheed Martin's (NYSE: LMT ) F-35 has been grounded. Further, thanks to this grounding, the F-35 won't fly at Britain's Royal International Air Tattoo, or RIAT, and could miss the Farnborough International Airshow, which starts on July 14.

Moreover, this latest development is just part of a series of problems plaguing the F-35, which now has a revised price of $398.6 billion just for accusation and development. Accordingly, this leads to the question: Is it time to kill the F-35?

Sky-high costs and massive problems

The F-35 is no stranger to problems. In addition to its recent engine fire, the F-35 is billions over budget, almost a decade behind schedule, and plagued by technical flaws. Plus, critics like Sen. John McCain are quick to point out that while the F-35 is supposed to reach initial operating capability in 2016, it will only do so by using a less lethal version of the software.

Furthermore, both Boeing (NYSE: BA ) and USAF Col. Michael W. Pietrucha have questioned the F-35's ability to survive evolving threats, and this isn't the first time the F-35's been grounded due to engine problems. In early 2013, the F-35 was grounded due to a crack in the plane's engine -- and that's not the only issue.

Chronic engine problems

Unfortunately, the F-35's recent engine fire isn't the first glitch to face United Technologies' (NYSE: UTX ) Pratt & Whitney made F135 engine. In fact, according to defense-aerospace.com, some of the F135's engine problems include: burning hotter than desired, repeated problems with the turbine blades, problems with the redesigned engine including failure to meet specifications, significant test failures, and a major oil leak -- which happened on June 13, just 10 days before the June 23 engine fire.

More importantly, as defense-aerospace.com points out, these complications -- many of them recurring -- could indicate that the F135 engine has serious design and structural faults.

Basically there's not much on the internet highlighting it's a piece of crap!!!

Edited by interestrateripoff
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There is so much wrong with the F35 - thousands of webpages online devoted to it.

They have tried to make it a bomber and a fighter in one - repeating the disasters of the Tornada and the F111 - and also, ludicrously, a jump jet. It will be outflown by the MIGs and provide no air defence against Russian or Chinese forces in the coming decades.

To make matters worse we now have built two enormous carriers that will have no true fighter or bomber capability with range or payloads, no on-board air to air refuelling capability and AEW provided by Merlin helos.

The Super Hornet and the Eurofighter would have been better and cheaper alternatives with the longterm aim going towards drones.

The F35B has no range, limited payload and cannot outfly the enemy aircraft it will come up against in China and Russia. It is a disaster. Worse, unlike the Harrier, which could land on a road or in a field, the F35B needs a specially laid concrete pad to land on - so it is not even as good as the Harrier in that regard. Oh, and one averagely aimed bullet can take the engine out and blow it up.

So our carriers will have no air superiority, no air to air refuelling, poor AEW and cannot even land fixed wing aircraft to bring new personnel aboard, evac casualties, etc. Because of the poor range of the F35B the carriers will have to go closer to the enemy and/or fly with reduced munitions. Time over enemy airspace will be dramatically limited.

Oh, and the carriers are diesel so they will hardly ever leave port.

It has been great for Lockheed Martin and BAE though and I imagine there have been fat salaries all around.

There is so much wrong with the F35 but it seems there were too many vested interests to cancel it. I think the secuirty of the Wsst is at risk as a result.

They could have spent the trillion making the F22 cheaper - at lsast that stands some chance against the MIGs.

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Teething problems are not an indication of the platforms effectiveness once it's released in to the wild, ALL aircraft have teething problems. Sorry I'm not prepared to accept a link from a website called fool.com and the link to the document in their article produces a 404 error.

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I haven't read anything credible to back up what you're saying. What information do you have that says it will be out flown by other 5th generation aircraft? What information do you have that says the opposing 5th generation plane won't be shot down before it get's within 50 miles of it's target? All of this sounds like internet Chinese whispers to me.

There is so much wrong with the F35 - thousands of webpages online devoted to it.

They have tried to make it a bomber and a fighter in one - repeating the disasters of the Tornada and the F111 - and also, ludicrously, a jump jet. It will be outflown by the MIGs and provide no air defence against Russian or Chinese forces in the coming decades.

To make matters worse we now have built two enormous carriers that will have no true fighter or bomber capability with range or payloads, no on-board air to air refuelling capability and AEW provided by Merlin helos.

The Super Hornet and the Eurofighter would have been better and cheaper alternatives with the longterm aim going towards drones.

The F35B has no range, limited payload and cannot outfly the enemy aircraft it will come up against in China and Russia. It is a disaster. Worse, unlike the Harrier, which could land on a road or in a field, the F35B needs a specially laid concrete pad to land on - so it is not even as good as the Harrier in that regard. Oh, and one averagely aimed bullet can take the engine out and blow it up.

So our carriers will have no air superiority, no air to air refuelling, poor AEW and cannot even land fixed wing aircraft to bring new personnel aboard, evac casualties, etc. Because of the poor range of the F35B the carriers will have to go closer to the enemy and/or fly with reduced munitions. Time over enemy airspace will be dramatically limited.

Oh, and the carriers are diesel so they will hardly ever leave port.

It has been great for Lockheed Martin and BAE though and I imagine there have been fat salaries all around.

There is so much wrong with the F35 but it seems there were too many vested interests to cancel it. I think the secuirty of the Wsst is at risk as a result.

They could have spent the trillion making the F22 cheaper - at lsast that stands some chance against the MIGs.

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I haven't read anything credible to back up what you're saying. What information do you have that says it will be out flown by other 5th generation aircraft? What information do you have that says the opposing 5th generation plane won't be shot down before it get's within 50 miles of it's target? All of this sounds like internet Chinese whispers to me.

Sadly, you will not be the one flying one.

You clearly had no understanding of what I wrote. There are thousands of webpages out there written by aviators - go and educate yourself.

The F22 is superior to any current Chinese aircraft, and superior to the F35, but in a recent US war game of a simulated Chinese invasion of Taiwan every F22 went down and China won. I will let you try and figure out why.

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They could have spent the trillion making the F22 cheaper - at lsast that stands some chance against the MIGs.

Hasn't the F-35 cost now bloated so much than it will be more expensive than the F-22 would have been if they'd just kept the production lines open? I'm sure I read that a while back.

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Hasn't the F-35 cost now bloated so much than it will be more expensive than the F-22 would have been if they'd just kept the production lines open? I'm sure I read that a while back.

Yep. The F22 is one heck of an aircraft but the Yanks didn't want anyone else to have them. The West is arming itself with the wrong aircraft. Lots of political pressure being put on Western Allies to buy the F35. Sadly, us Brits are going to buy the worst version of the F35.

Look at Oz and Canada - two countries with massive territory to cover. They both wanted the F22 which made zense for them - a twin engined fifth generation air superiority fighter. Who is Canada going to bomb? Who is Oz going to bomb? Both countries need an air superiority fighter with two engines - you want two engines when flying vast distances, especially when going into combat.

What are they going to get - a single engined flying duck. There have been calls in both countries to go with the Super Hornet instead but political pressure is making them buy F35s... but the cost of them meams that both countries will end up with fewer aircraft than they need and want. Numbers are important.

I see the Japanese have released a photo of their planned F3 - which looks like the F22. The Japanese F2 is a Japanese fighter licenced on the F16 airframe. Looks like the Japs are going to get their F22.

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I understand what you've said, it's just I don't believe any of it. I don't believe for a second the US Air Forces is knowingly buying 2,443 F35's that are inferior to Chinese planes. Nah... it's just not true.

Sadly, you will not be the one flying one.

You clearly had no understanding of what I wrote. There are thousands of webpages out there written by aviators - go and educate yourself.

The F22 is superior to any current Chinese aircraft, and superior to the F35, but in a recent US war game of a simulated Chinese invasion of Taiwan every F22 went down and China won. I will let you try and figure out why.

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