Transport Spending Skewed Towards London

[interestrateripoff]

Doesn't wash i.e I worked for a Lucas factory in Finchley in Mrs T country. The factory wasn't competitive and therefore went into decline. over 3000 jobs we didn't expect a state subsisdy so why should a plant in the North East just because it is 250 miles from where the world wants to trade.

You either subsidise everything or nothing the former has got us where are now the latter will get us out (not including basics like utilities etc, railways which should be in national hands)

Off shoring and flat world is a global movement and frankly was happening in the 60's, the posh johnnies in the city weren't clever enough to think of it.

The problem most people in declining regions and industries have is that these trends were apparent 30 years ago so some of us hopped around industries, retrained etc, the majority of people sat at their deks, lathe until the p45 came along.

Deliberately missing the point?

Why did your factory shut, how did it become uncompetitive wage inflation? Under cut by cheaper foreign workers? Factory in need a major refurbishment?

Where did I say give everyone a business subsidy?

[Dorkins]

London's transport improvements go to some lengths to avoid benefiting non-Londoners. For example:

• Focusing on an "oyster card"

• Making Boris-bikes unavailable at the mainline stations which are London's access points for outsiders.

• Oh, and requiring you to jump through hoops to pay for a Boris bike

Your information is out of date. You can now get Boris bikes at the mainline train stations. See for yourself:

https://web.barclayscyclehire.tfl.gov.uk/maps

And an Oyster card is easily obtainable at airports, train and tube stations, online...

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

And an Oyster card is easily obtainable at airports, train and tube stations, online...

But the point is that you have to know about them in order to get one. The system is designed to ãrse rape anyone who has the temerity to just show up at the station and buy a ticket. Go to any other developed country in the world (or at least, any of the couple of dozen or so whose public transport systems I've used) and they won't make you buy a pre-pay card in advance or have to shell out £4 to go a couple of miles on the tube.

[Riedquat]

But the point is that you have to know about them in order to get one. The system is designed to ãrse rape anyone who has the temerity to just show up at the station and buy a ticket. Go to any other developed country in the world (or at least, any of the couple of dozen or so whose public transport systems I've used) and they won't make you buy a pre-pay card in advance or have to shell out £4 to go a couple of miles on the tube.

That's the problem with Oyster cards - the price difference. The idea of them is reasonable enough.

[porca misèria]

Your information is out of date. You can now get Boris bikes at the mainline train stations. See for yourself:

https://web.barclayscyclehire.tfl.gov.uk/maps

And an Oyster card is easily obtainable at airports, train and tube stations, online...

That's a change since I heard a spokesman explaining how they deliberately didn't provide the mainline stations 'cos they couldn't cope with the demand patterns!

But when will I be able to use one instead of the tube when I have a train ticket that takes me via London?

As for oyster card, you miss the point. Someone who only has occasional use for one is going to put it away, then have the hassle of remembering and finding it when they travel. To work for us, they should provide it in something that's of use day-to-day. Like a 'phone, or a regular credit/debit card. Or better, a wide choice!

[Dorkins]

As for oyster card, you miss the point. Someone who only has occasional use for one is going to put it away, then have the hassle of remembering and finding it when they travel. To work for us, they should provide it in something that's of use day-to-day. Like a 'phone, or a regular credit/debit card. Or better, a wide choice!

I think you are complaining for complaining's sake now. Eventually a unified system for contactless pay will probably be the norm for buses and local trains across the country, it's just that London has it first. If you want to cycle between mainline stations that's fine, but you are an oddball (as am I) and the system has better things to do than cater for your whims.

[Dorkins]

But the point is that you have to know about them in order to get one. The system is designed to ãrse rape anyone who has the temerity to just show up at the station and buy a ticket. Go to any other developed country in the world (or at least, any of the couple of dozen or so whose public transport systems I've used) and they won't make you buy a pre-pay card in advance or have to shell out £4 to go a couple of miles on the tube.

Tfl has been rightly criticised for this and seems to be doing a better job of publicising Oyster cards to people arriving in London now. I don't know why they charge so much for cash tickets on the tube and I agree it is unreasonable.

[gadget]

[1] Surely the olympics - of all things - should've gone further north, somewhere ordinary people take an interest in watching sport. Not that it matters to me, so long as I can stay clear of it.

Just to say Britain tried very hard to have the olympics in other cities (Birmingham 1992 and Manchester twice, 1996 and 2000)

The IOC made it very clear that they wouldn't take a UK bid seriously unless it was London.

[efdemin]

Just to say Britain tried very hard to have the olympics in other cities (Birmingham 1992 and Manchester twice, 1996 and 2000)

The IOC made it very clear that they wouldn't take a UK bid seriously unless it was London.

True. Manchester had the commonwealth games instead though and that turned out ok. Just ask Man City what they think of their new stadium. And ask the GB cycle team if the velodrome helped in their training for the Beijing Olympics.

[worried1]

Some things are more expensive / less good in the country and everyone moans ("why isn't my broadband in my remote cottage as fast as theirs in central london?!") But how much do you think a garden or fresh air costs in London or any other big city? You pays your money you takes your choice.

Exactly. Living in the country is just as much as a priviledge as living in town. Running fast broadband, bus services and rubbish collections are massively expensive when they are provided for a village of 1,000 people compared to another 1,000 living in a couple of streets in London.

Ideally, we'd all have a nice penthouse in Knightsbridge and a country pad to go to at weekends. Until we can afford that, we have to put ourselves in the place that offers the most advantages for our lifestyle.

[AThirdWay]

People in the country are already heavily subsidised.

They whinge enough as it is but imagine what it would be like if they had to pay the true rate for their rubbish collection, post, electricity, sewerage, water etc.

And where are you going to keep that cow to provide the milk for your Coco-pops son? In the back garden?

A little thought before you post?

Edited December 19, 2011 by AThirdWay

[Byron]

And where are you going to keep that cow to provide the milk for your Coco-pops son? In the back garden?

A little thought before you post?

I agree with this. Even the water in the London taps comes from a country reservoir.

How much food is produced in London?

Coal, oil, gas?

Having said that, I have belonged to a number of National Organisations. Each time they wanted to hold an AGM, we chose London because it was the easiest for most people on a National scale (even Northern Ireland), simply because all the motorways, rails and airlines go there.

[Greg Bowman]

is this in USD or pounds?

I believe it's pounds but surely that doesn't matter it's the ratios that count

[Greg Bowman]

Deliberately missing the point?

Why did your factory shut, how did it become uncompetitive wage inflation? Under cut by cheaper foreign workers? Factory in need a major refurbishment?

Where did I say give everyone a business subsidy?

The factory shut because Bosch were better at diesel pumps than Lucas. I think you miss the point London offers opportunities to retrain, reskill and take opportunities.

But in the majority of sectors with no help interference from the government and yet we fund the rest of the UK see table in other post top three regions by GDP

[Trampa501]

I agree with this. Even the water in the London taps comes from a country reservoir.

How much food is produced in London?

Coal, oil, gas?

Having said that, I have belonged to a number of National Organisations. Each time they wanted to hold an AGM, we chose London because it was the easiest for most people on a National scale (even Northern Ireland), simply because all the motorways, rails and airlines go there.

Of course all the transport routes go there - the transport spending is skewed towards London!

Imagine if Manchester or Leeds had been the capital all these years?

On the other hand, perhaps not such a good idea...

[winkie]

Of course all the transport routes go there - the transport spending is skewed towards London!

Imagine if Manchester or Leeds had been the capital all these years?

On the other hand, perhaps not such a good idea...

All roads/rail lead to Rome or Madrid for that matter.

[efdemin]

The factory shut because Bosch were better at diesel pumps than Lucas. I think you miss the point London offers opportunities to retrain, reskill and take opportunities.

But in the majority of sectors with no help interference from the government and yet we fund the rest of the UK see table in other post top three regions by GDP

Yeah, but GDP also includes the public sector - i.e. all of the senior civil servants and vast armies of bureaucrats in Whitehall. So it is not clear how much +ve GDP London generates on its own.

[gadget]

Imagine if Manchester or Leeds had been the capital all these years?

Doubt it would have made any difference.

Compare Washington DC with New York

Brasillia with Rio

Canberra with Sydney

Bern with Geneva

Anakra with Istanbul

even Beijing with Shanghai

I could go on (but only because of wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_whose_capital_is_not_their_largest_city )

[Oliver Sutton]

And where are you going to keep that cow to provide the milk for your Coco-pops son? In the back garden?

A little thought before you post?

What a dull post.

No idea what you're on about.

[spyguy]

You keep repeating a rookie mistake. I don't know what you understand by gdp. But London is a microcosm for what went on for the whole country economy over the last 30 years. But with steroids.

....

Yes + 1000.

I'm from the NE//North Yorks.

I've lived around the country - and outside of the country.

HSL/transport first:

The HSL link to Leeds/Yorks is nuts -

1) The UK rail industry is just not productive - over unionised, over regulated, jobs for the (old) boys.

2) The HSL line is just not long enough. You need 500+ miles.

3) Who's it to serve - business men. How many that then? The assumption that it'll make it easier for Mr Business in Leeds to visit London for 'stuff' is not really thought out. It's more likely that Mr Business will move to London and use the train the other way.

The Yorkshire Post and the Leeds based griping is nuts. Leeds business is contracting at a rapid rate- it was all credit based/BTL and public sector spending.

Driving and parking in greater Leeds need to made prohibitive expensive and transport shifted to buses + trains. Now! TheYorkshire Post wants more roads AND more public transport. I would not take business/economic advise from a publication owned by Johnson Press - just not at the share price over the last 10 years.

The thick band of population across the middle of England - Hull (if you really want go there) -> York/Leeds/Bradford -> Manchester -> Liverpool (same as Hull but times 10!)

is crying out for for some form of coordinated transport - be it linked up trains, unified ticketing. But do the council have the skills and foresight - Nope. Too many small councils with big ideas and small brains.

Remember John Prescott's 'Sack me if I do not make public transport better'.

In short - we need to treat the North as single region - no Yorkshire, no Manchester, no Newcastle - the Great Northern Region. And operate within that. A lot of the money can be found be sacking the regional and city councils. Seriously, they are grossly over staffed and just p*ss money away.

Second, London/economy/and all that.

If London is so great then why did the house prices do so bad in 90-96? Seriously, I was there. In some places they fell by over 60% in nominal prices.

London is very leveraged - in both credit/mortgages, and employment in the financial services. When the price of credit goes up - and it will by a fair clip - just look at Moody's AAA story today - then London will get hammered. The new capital re-org will kill off 1/2 of the city jobs. The reality that most of proprietary trading is a zero sum will kill off a large part of the rest.

Oh and the idea that is London is full of enterprising bankers and business is total BS. London is the home of the public sector and public funded organisations. Cut public sector funding - jobs and/or housing allowance and London is busted.

Most of my fellow Northerners have total mis-conceptions of London, due to it being such a big place. Their experience is limited to the centre - the west end.

The greater majority of London, at best, is at best dull, cr*p and expensive. A significant part if a total crap hole - Hackney, east end, the outer-urbs. Its like basing your experience of York on Betty's rather than Tang Hall.

[efdemin]

Yes + 1000.

I'm from the NE//North Yorks.

I've lived around the country - and outside of the country.

HSL/transport first:

The HSL link to Leeds/Yorks is nuts -

1) The UK rail industry is just not productive - over unionised, over regulated, jobs for the (old) boys.

2) The HSL line is just not long enough. You need 500+ miles.

3) Who's it to serve - business men. How many that then? The assumption that it'll make it easier for Mr Business in Leeds to visit London for 'stuff' is not really thought out. It's more likely that Mr Business will move to London and use the train the other way.

...

3) is actually pretty important. It won't be just business men from the SE but from overseas as well, who can fly in to Heathrow and jump straight on a modern train to Brum/Manchester/etc. It's not just the execs but all employees. I've had to go overseas to customers for face to face technical meetings and the offices are always based in places where it is easy to get to.

It will also make it more feasible to have a satellite office oop north as the journey will be easier to do in a day if a manager wants to pop up for a meeting.

I think you need to get that London-sized chip off your shoulder and realise that simply making the 'North' into some kind of single region won't work unless you also improve links to the 'South'.

[porca misèria]

Another huge Labour mistake. I wish it was in Paris. Then we could give everyone in the country a ticket to go and see it...it would have been cheaper by far...and no legacy costs.

To be fair, it was a cross-party white elephant.

It's on occasions like that I wish I had the ability to draw a decent cartoon, so I could have done the True Spirit of the Olympics:

... Hugely fat guys slouched in front of the telly, surrounded by discarded takeaway boxes and lager cans.

Our co-op of all people were spot-on for the football world cup a couple of years ago, when they had a World Cup Special: buy a six-pack of lager, get a pizza thrown in.

[Riedquat]

3) is actually pretty important. It won't be just business men from the SE but from overseas as well, who can fly in to Heathrow and jump straight on a modern train to Brum/Manchester/etc. It's not just the execs but all employees. I've had to go overseas to customers for face to face technical meetings and the offices are always based in places where it is easy to get to.

It will also make it more feasible to have a satellite office oop north as the journey will be easier to do in a day if a manager wants to pop up for a meeting.

I think you need to get that London-sized chip off your shoulder and realise that simply making the 'North' into some kind of single region won't work unless you also improve links to the 'South'.

So people keep saying, but does knocking a bit of time off an already fairly short journey justify such spending? Just over 2 hours to London from Manchester at present, just under 2 1/2 from Leeds, not counting getting to and from stations (which won't change).

Speaking purely from personal experience a more widespread rail network would be far more useful than a quicker one to London (where I've never had to go for work).

[haggishunter1983]

I've always wondered what would happen to London if they removed all subsides. Housing benefits, tax credits, all central government offices, travel subsides, capital projects like the Olympics, the BBC etc.

Would it become better or worse.

On a slightly different note, I think the Olympics in London is a disgrace. If there is one place in the country where growth and investment doesn't need to be drummed up its there. If the ioc doesn't like it s0d them and spend the money on a center for sport anywhere else in the country. I also think the 'olympic lanes' on the roads is a joke and shows just how maxed out the city is.

[efdemin]

So people keep saying, but does knocking a bit of time off an already fairly short journey justify such spending? Just over 2 hours to London from Manchester at present, just under 2 1/2 from Leeds, not counting getting to and from stations (which won't change).

Speaking purely from personal experience a more widespread rail network would be far more useful than a quicker one to London (where I've never had to go for work).

Yes, even 1/2 an hour makes a difference, because it's more like a full hour if you are doing the return journey.

My personal experience is that places that have good links with London/Heathrow tend to build up clusters of an industry - Reading/Oxford/Thames Valley, Cambridge, Guildford. When companies I've worked at have satellite offices in Manchester or Birmingham or anywhere outside the SE other than Edinburgh or Bristol they are always the red-headed stepchild of the company (unless it is the head office). My experience is obviously skewed to software engineering though but for a lot of industries I reckon it holds true.

HS2 will make it easier to get from Heathrow to the rest of the country - currently don't you have to go back in to Paddington, then across London to Euston to get to Manchester?

Also, where are the extra lines in a wider network going to meet up? The main lines are already at near full capacity so HS2 is needed to take some of the strain from them to free up space anyway.