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How would the government be able to afford to pay 18-22 million private sector employees what they pay public sector employees currently?

They could increase employers' mandatory contributions when automatic enrollment starts.next year for large companies who can afford it, for example.

They could also stop using the fact that private sector workers have been shafted (while their bosses retire on HUGE pensions) as a justification for hammering state employees.

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In the past week there have been numerous public sector workers interviewed on TV and radio almost gloating about their pensions compared to the private sector.

They can gloat as much as they like, Dave will not move and they are welcome to bring the country to a standstill, cause mayhem, but Dave and George will not give way after consulting their dear friend Lady Margaret Thatcher. She stood her ground and won. A PM whose wife can afford a £600 pair of shoes, with a FIL who they say owns half of Lincolnshire he can`t lose. Brendan return to your office and keep sending your troops to Eastern Europe, encouraging those workers to join the Union and come to the UK for work displacing the indigenous workers who no longer have faith in you and do not wish to join the comrades. :rolleyes:

And now a rousing rendition of Jerusalem. ;)

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They could increase employers' mandatory contributions when automatic enrollment starts.next year for large companies who can afford it, for example.

They could also stop using the fact that private sector workers have been shafted (while their bosses retire on HUGE pensions) as a justification for hammering state employees.

This only seems to refer to large corporates. Most of the people employed in the private sector are in SMEs. If they increased my boss' mandatory contributions he would probably have to freeze wages for years into the future. For the employers mandatory contributions to be sufficient to equal public sector pensions would probably end up killing the business. I would have to pay in 30/40% of my earnings I can not afford that. He can not afford to pay 20/30% of every workers' earnings extra.

He already pays a huge amount in fuel duty, national insurance and if we do manage to squeeze a profit, corporation tax. I don't know what pension my boss has, but I would hope that for all the 70/80 hours weeks i see him put in, it would be a good one.

For the vast majority of the private sector your solution would be unfeasible. It would only work for wealthy, big corporations like PWC who it isn't really an issue for in the first place.

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This only seems to refer to large corporates. Most of the people employed in the private sector are in SMEs. If they increased my boss' mandatory contributions he would probably have to freeze wages for years into the future. For the employers mandatory contributions to be sufficient to equal public sector pensions would probably end up killing the business. I would have to pay in 30/40% of my earnings I can not afford that. He can not afford to pay 20/30% of every workers' earnings extra.

He already pays a huge amount in fuel duty, national insurance and if we do manage to squeeze a profit, corporation tax. I don't know what pension my boss has, but I would hope that for all the 70/80 hours weeks i see him put in, it would be a good one.

For the vast majority of the private sector your solution would be unfeasible. It would only work for wealthy, big corporations like PWC who it isn't really an issue for in the first place.

Millions of people work for the likes of Tesco, BT, GSK, Kingfisher, BP Amoco etc.

I take your point that things are more tricky for SMEs. But the government could still reduce NI contributions in return for greater pension pay-ins.

Even if we accept that private sector pensions are beyond slavage (which I don't), that's still not a jusification for radically reducing public sector workers' pensions.

Ultimately, the state will have to support people in retirement anyway, whether through helping them save initially or providing welfare in old age - it's a false ecomomy to reduce occupational pensions now.

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In the past week there have been numerous public sector workers interviewed on TV and radio almost gloating about their pensions compared to the private sector.

BBC news presenters always smirk after stating that public sector pensions are better than private sector ones. It seems to really tickle them.

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Millions of people work for the likes of Tesco, BT, GSK, Kingfisher, BP Amoco etc.

I take your point that things are more tricky for SMEs. But the government could still reduce NI contributions in return for greater pension pay-ins.

Even if we accept that private sector pensions are beyond slavage (which I don't), that's still not a jusification for radically reducing public sector workers' pensions.

Ultimately, the state will have to support people in retirement anyway, whether through helping them save initially or providing welfare in old age - it's a false ecomomy to reduce occupational pensions now.

40% of the private sector work for SMEs,

We need to figure out how to make money as a nation and reward success,, not tax it further,

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Talk about Turkey's voting for Christmas, a lot of those in the private sector support the strikers.

Perhaps they could compromise and those who support the strikers could pay the difference demanded out of their own pockets through a voluntary donation.

I do not support these strikes and neither do any of my colleages who by the way have not had a pay rise in 3 years and will receive a crap pension in comparison to most public sector skivers. Teachers should feel ashamed about depriving young children of a days education.

I will be driving through 2 picket lines tomorrow and I'm not sure whether I should mow a few skivers down or not.

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Millions of people work for the likes of Tesco, BT, GSK, Kingfisher, BP Amoco etc.

I take your point that things are more tricky for SMEs. But the government could still reduce NI contributions in return for greater pension pay-ins.

Even if we accept that private sector pensions are beyond slavage (which I don't), that's still not a jusification for radically reducing public sector workers' pensions.

Ultimately, the state will have to support people in retirement anyway, whether through helping them save initially or providing welfare in old age - it's a false ecomomy to reduce occupational pensions now.

It wouldn't be tricky for SMEs to equal public sector pensions, it would be fatal for many.

The fact is many (especially younger) private sector workers can not afford their pensions yet are taxed to pay for public sector workers. Surely you can appreciate how perverse this is?

If it is wrong to reduce occupational pensions now why was is not wrong in 2003? I am all for solidarity but it only seems to apply in this instance when people need it from me. I didn't happen to get much 8 years ago.

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40% of the private sector work for SMEs,

We need to figure out how to make money as a nation and reward success,, not tax it further,

For me success is less about companies making money than about having millions of people having secure retirements, regardless where they work. Profit's just a means to an end.

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It wouldn't be tricky for SMEs to equal public sector pensions, it would be fatal for many.

The fact is many (especially younger) private sector workers can not afford their pensions yet are taxed to pay for public sector workers. Surely you can appreciate how perverse this is?

Public sector workers pay tax too - including to fund tax relief for private sector workers who do have pensions.

If it is wrong to reduce occupational pensions now why was is not wrong in 2003? I am all for solidarity but it only seems to apply in this instance when people need it from me. I didn't happen to get much 8 years ago.

It WAS wrong in 2003 too, and that's what the unions have been saying.

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For me success is less about companies making money than about having millions of people having secure retirements, regardless where they work. Profit's just a means to an end.

Means to an end?

like it or not it is the revenue from profit that goes towards everyones retirement, public or private..

it might be a little more important than you are making outF

furthermore the UK needs to compete in the global market place, without encouraging enterprise we are doomed- though we are probably doomed anyway

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Means to an end?

like it or not it is the revenue from profit that goes towards everyones retirement, public or private..

Exactly - retirement (and provision of salary to fund our lives) is that end. I'm not belittling the means itself, but it's the obession with profit for profit's sake that has got us into this mess.

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Have you got a link for this? I always thought it was 60/70% in terms of numbers employed.

Have I just dropped a bllock here? :blink:

I think it depends on what the classification of SME is <50 or <25 etc

http://www.ribm.mmu.ac.uk/symposium2008/full/JesseyMatemeraFullPaper.pdf

Small to medium enterprises account for 94 percent of all employers in the UK economy. SMEs employ over 36 percent of all labour force in the UK and account for 47 percent of private sector business turnover (DTI 2007).

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Public sector workers pay tax too - including to fund tax relief for private sector workers who do have pensions.

It WAS wrong in 2003 too, and that's what the unions have been saying.

Public sector workers don't pay tax. They are paid by the state and then they hand back a fraction back to the state. The state may as well pay them 20/30/40% less and save on administration costs.

What the public sector do for the private sector is far more important than funding tax relief (something the private sector does for itself in fact). The public sector educate future workers, maintain their health, provide decent roads for them to shift their stuff and oversee a legal and administrative foundation on which to operate.

Unfortunately 8 years is a bit late. Unions talk of a race to the bottom. There is no race anymore. Young private sector workers have been there for years. During the actual race to the bottom 2003-2008, public sector workers and unions said nothing about this race.

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Exactly - retirement (and provision of salary to fund our lives) is that end. I'm not belittling the means itself, but it's the obession with profit for profit's sake that has got us into this mess.

oh I agree with the obsession but I am talking about those who are not obsessed, simply trying to keep their livelihoods going and their houses and keep their staff employed

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I think it depends on what the classification of SME is <50 or <25 etc

http://www.ribm.mmu.ac.uk/symposium2008/full/JesseyMatemeraFullPaper.pdf

Small to medium enterprises account for 94 percent of all employers in the UK economy. SMEs employ over 36 percent of all labour force in the UK and account for 47 percent of private sector business turnover (DTI 2007).

Smaller than i thought but significant.

Thanks

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the more an more i see/read/hear about the public sector strikes, their reasons behind them etc, the more i think that its "Spoilt Brat Syndrome".

I fully understand why the public sector is striking, they want more money, they dont want to loose their pension etc. but i dont agree with it.

if you dont like the new terms and conditions go find another job. thats what i'm doing. go an look for a job that is equal or better that YOU could do, then leave. dont be childish.

i havent had a pay rise for 4 years, nor a bonus, ovetime was scrapped and i pay for my OWN pension, out of MY own wage.

other working conditions have changed/not changed who i am not happy with, i have raised all my concerns with my wage, etc and there is nothing he can really do. if i get the rise i want it will reduce the (minimal) proffit they make, as well as put my charge out rate up, which in this ecconomy is not good. our overheads are high, and we are trying to lower them, but all of our consumables have go up by upto 100% in the last 4 years, this squeezes our margins even more.

all the while everything is getting more expensive for me, as a consumer. its costing me mor money to go to work, its costing me more money to heat my home, eat, etc.

then all i hear is the public sector bleating on about how hard doneby they are.

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In the past week there have been numerous public sector workers interviewed on TV and radio almost gloating about their pensions compared to the private sector.

'almost gloating'? They're idiots then, and have fallen for the govt's divide and rule tactics as well.

indeed, they seem to be losing the argument rather spectacularly, and Osborne has given them another prod today

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maintain their health,

my guess is that private pharmacies, as well as supply of fresh food and clean water are more instrumental than the NHS, which is a next line of defence

so the private sector is more instrumental in healthcare, even despite the fact that I support basic universal healthcare on top of this

provide decent roads for them to shift their stuff

maintained by private contractors AFAIK

During the actual race to the bottom 2003-2008, public sector workers and unions said nothing about this race.

many public sector workers gloated and gloated and gloated. not all.

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Unfortunately 8 years is a bit late. Unions talk of a race to the bottom. There is no race anymore. Young private sector workers have been there for years. During the actual race to the bottom 2003-2008, public sector workers and unions said nothing about this race.

That's simply not true. The TUC has been making that point for years now, but then again you're not likely to hear that as most of the media,would prefer to portray all union figures as illiterate oafs only interested in their own members.

Don't forget that unions like Unite represent over a million private sector workers. Their pensions are generally better as a result, but unfortunately union rhetoric has limited influence over non-unionised companies.

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I really don't get the talk of a race to the bottom, as its a race to reality and noting to do with private vs public pensions. people shouldn’t say "well I'm private sector and I get nothing so you need to get nothing too" that’s just an answer that people who wont or cant think tend to give.

The choices for public pensions are:

  • Go back to historically how they worked, same contribution but a LOT less public sector workers
  • Keep LOTS of public sector workers and take a big cut to the way the pension work (in reality this would bring them inline with private pensions i.e. self funding)
  • Find a half way house

What very few seem to accept is that they can have lots of people, all living longer, paying in very little and getting out a lot and that this is affordable. Clearly the tax payer (both public and private) will be funding the public sector pensions but the current extent to which this takes place can't go on.

Union bosses don't do themselves any favours when they strike about cutting jobs, strike about cutting pensions, strike about upping the age etc etc

I know public sector workers signed up to a package, but the reality is sh*t happens, everyone has to change and flex and its the public sector workers divine right to get what they have always had that seems to make private sector workers feel like they are out if touch with reality (my wife if a nurse and many of my friends are doctors so this isnt just some rant).

The doctors "get it" they are pumping in as much cash as they can as they know they have had it great to too long and know that even if they don't get out at the end what they were expecting (in their own words the daddy of all pensions) they will still be 10 times better off than if they has set up their own SIPP

Edited by FIGGY
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It was an answer to

Actually, a majority of the public support the strikes. Just giving out general abuse at people because of their choice of employer is a bit brainless, to be honest. - Fluffy666

It is not a majority in any of the polls

I was basing that comment on the 61%.

Still think that characterizing the public sector as stuffed with useless slackers is brainless.

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  • 429 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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