Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
interestrateripoff

Jobseekers Who Fail To Find Work Will Be Forced To Do Voluntary Work For 30 Hours A Week

Recommended Posts

There are hundreds of things that could be done if there was money available.

We don't have the money to do things - so we could use dolites to do the work.

Name some that won't take away paid jobs.

There is a precedent for this kind of scheme. The YTS scheme was widely abused to get cheap labour instead of employing apprentices.

PS. The number of people who are unemployed is growing and has been for a couple of years. Why do you think this is? Are people suddenly becoming lazier?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they are prepared to do jobs that are "Below" the level that alot of UK people feel they are entitled to ..

It's not "entitlement" unless you want to live in a society where a place to live and the chance to have a family is a luxury.

Real jobs that pay a living wage (after all the legal deductions for NI, etc. have been made) are what is required, not a race to the bottom with people attempting to compete with those prepared to live 10 to a house for a year or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they are forced to work, the work won't be voluntary.

Not enough work to do? How about helping senior citizens, or helping teachers in schools?

We already have people doing this as Teaching Assistants and Carers. It's called employment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059237/Jobseekers-fail-work-forced-voluntary-work-30-hours-week.html

Great plan, apart from the fact there might not be the voluntary work for these people to do, the OH went to one agency because of work, who handle volunteers and they said that they had nothing to offer at the minute and there was a waiting list of 80 people. However they will take details and keep them on file for six months.

So this might be a plan that falls at the first hurdle.

Sounds like a good idea. The government should setup a website where people who pay tax (including council tax) can use to make request to have their house chores/cleaning/gardening done by the 'volunteers'.

I certainly have a list of things for the 'volunteer' to do...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its just more bread and circuses by a failing administration and fag end of a failed economic experiment. This lot will be lucky to escape being strung up, let alone dream up publicity stunts like this, when things really kick off.

+1 My vote for post of the week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I read the title of the thread I was chuckling at the word "forced".

The idea of this is surely thus:

People who haven't worked for x period of time - whatever that is determined to be - and are being housed and fed by the rest of society have a choice:

1. Get a job, start a business, be self-sufficient. Basically, earn their own keep and have some degree of self-determination.

Or:

2. Do work for the State in exchange for Other People's Money (benefits are the wages)

Or:

3. Do nothing, and starve.

So given the choice - there is nothing forced about it - I reckon most would go for option 1 quite voluntarily.

All it does is remove the option which presently exists, that being:

4. Do nothing in exchange for Other People's Money

You have to consider why people haven't got jobs. If you allow the market to price jobs, there is always something to do at some price. It's only when you add protectionist policy, regulations and so forth that some jobs are no longer viable. To be specific, it becomes illegal for people to do certain jobs.

Then what? They end up on the dole, because the state has forced them into that position. As the state also keeps the price of land with planning permission high, with the bankers seeking rent off the back of this, people are forced into needing benefits to survive. Shelter and food are cheap without such restrictions, removing the need for benefits (charity would likely suffice).

This latest move by the state leverages the previous bad policy decisions, into creating slave labour... people must work for buttons or starve.

The sane solution would be to remove the restrictions and the rent seekers, then let people find their own productive work should to do. However, that wouldn't please the rent seekers at the top of the pile, so it won't happen. Instead we will have more liberties eroded away, more state control, right up to the point of collapse... tick, tock... tick, tock...

EDIT: P.S. Ofc, there are some spongers who could work but would rather take the hand out, but this policy treats all people without a job as scroungers who need to do some slave labour.

Edited by Traktion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AS others have said the 'volunteer' army of benefits claimants would start to encroach on work that ought to be paid. How long before you 'volunteer' in Tesco as part of a 'charitable' 'back to work scheme'?

A citizens income makes so much sense as a replacement for all benefits. Easy to administer, no way to fiddle the system. What you earn on top you get to keep. No benefits trap.

I'd like this to be real radical - make the banks hold much larger cash reserves and give them tighter lending restrictions - issue debt-free money as part of the citizens income. AS this money would circulate freely is would actually put some freedom into free markets. Debt money is made and destroyed as banks create it and people pay it back. Debt free-money can just circulate and promote economic activity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is just the coalition doing what used to be beloved of the last lot - floating ideas to see if they'll fly. At best there will a highly publicised pilot scheme featuring a chain gang in orange jumpsuits with DOLESCUM printed across their backs digging holes and while another crew fills them in again. A private company will get very well paid for the job of organising them. The scheme will be quietly dropped but the ignorant will remember the news clips and assume it is in operation.

Its main purpose is to provoke fear in the employed and give bosses greater negotiating power. Faced with working for static/lower wages or benefits - most will choose the wages.

Edited by StainlessSteelCat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will they pay for all those Taxi's for those placements in the sticks? I heard of people on the New deal walking an hour and half each way, just to catch a bus to their ND placement.

A driving license is more valuable to an employer than a degree when they're out in the sticks. Good job car insurance is still cheap, especially for the under 25s......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only caveat with this is that the voluntary work has to be something that no-one is paid for: in other words it does not deprive someone of work.

This is very difficult to ensure in practice, but the re are a million menial jobs that need doing in broken Britain.

The truth is that the very communities in which these people live are the communities that probably require this help. If you keep this voluntary work "community specific" then you would find a lot to do. For instance, in my neighbourhood of middle class people the front gardens are tidy, the street clean and the public spaces tended. This is partly the council but mainly the efforts of local people.

Poor neighbourhoods go to the dogs partly... and only partly.... Because not enough people care. Once Shameless has to spend his afternoons picking up dog shit and cleaning verges his lasses-faire attitude to civic order may change.

Why should benefits be for free? It's a bad deal for the state and it creates dependency and destroys self worth in the individual.

The idea is in itself meritorious, but the concerns of cheap labour are valid. By keeping the work " community specific" it castrates the power of the latter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HOW DO MORE PEOPLE NOT GET THIS!!!!!

There are not enough jobs to go around, sure there are probably a handful of jobs that nobody is currently paid for doing (repainting community centres, etc where there is no money to cover the labour), but ]otherwise this scheme will likely end up taking away jobs that are paid, and replacing them with "volunteers" earning state benefits.

This system doesn't work in the USA, and we are going to adopt it for PR reasons alone.

I agree with the thrust of Debbie's point, but why aren't there enough jobs? That's the question which should be being asked. There should always be something to do at some price.

Equally, why is shelter on a bit of land so expensive, when grazing land only costs from £2-3k? Who is creaming off the extra money and why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they are prepared to do jobs that are "Below" the level that alot of UK people feel they are entitled to ..

I knew the answer to that one anyway.

My mum used to do fruit picking in the summer with lots of the other mums.

Now there's no need as tax credits ensure mums can stay at home.

Name some that won't take away paid jobs.

There is a precedent for this kind of scheme. The YTS scheme was widely abused to get cheap labour instead of employing apprentices.

PS. The number of people who are unemployed is growing and has been for a couple of years. Why do you think this is? Are people suddenly becoming lazier?

Wait til it snows and there will be jobs on every street corner sweeping snow off pavements on side roads. There will never be the budget for doing that.

Sweeping leaves up. Tidying out footpaths and alleys.

Cutting knotweed and other nasty weeds. Yes it should be done as proper paid work but huge areas need doing and no one has the money to do it (Or if they have they should be made to pay for the work - and we have a workforce that can be trained to do this)

We have miles and miles of roads with crap thrown in the hedges. These are very low priority.

I'd invent some jobs - like planting fruit trees, creating urban orchards.

There's hundreds of parks that could be litter picked every day rather than once a fortnight. Would that take away a paid job? Would the council stop doing it? They might.

There's old people who could have company for a couple of hours a day.

There are lots of old people who don't have home helps, or visitors.

And if comes to it, then everyone who pays tax could have a gardener, cleaner, cook for a couple of hours a week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait til it snows and there will be jobs on every street corner sweeping snow off pavements on side roads. There will never be the budget for doing that.

People do that anyway? Well they do round here.

Sweeping leaves up. Tidying out footpaths and alleys.

Undermining the private sector companies contracted by the council to do this?

Cutting knotweed and other nasty weeds. Yes it should be done as proper paid work but huge areas need doing and no one has the money to do it (Or if they have they should be made to pay for the work - and we have a workforce that can be trained to do this)

Again, there are people already paid to do this. More companies hitting the wall.

We have miles and miles of roads with crap thrown in the hedges. These are very low priority.

People doing community service (after a criminal conviction) already do this.

I'd invent some jobs - like planting fruit trees, creating urban orchards.

Invent some unpaid jobs? You really don't have a clue do you... :rolleyes:

Urban orchards. FFS, planted on what? On whose land? :huh: Who will check that the trees aren't introducing disease and manage the freshly planted orchards?

There's hundreds of parks that could be litter picked every day rather than once a fortnight. Would that take away a paid job? Would the council stop doing it? They might.

More unemployed, nice work, there's a bright future in government for you ;)

There's old people who could have company for a couple of hours a day.

There are lots of old people who don't have home helps, or visitors.

Have you got any idea how many checks and courses you need to do to "officially" visit an old person in their home? :rolleyes: Will they need to be trained to do this job? Who pays for the training, and how will the elderly folk react when their new friend can no longer turn up because they found a job.

And if comes to it, then everyone who pays tax could have a gardener, cleaner, cook for a couple of hours a week.

Ah, now we do come to it. Slave labour for the iPad toting, Daily Mail reading generation. Undermining the existing workforce in these areas, which are already chronically low paid. Bravo!! :lol:

Who gets the new slaves? How do you allocate them? How do you deal with complaints when some start stealing, and the homeowner sues the council, what about the ones who damage the homes, who pays for the damage, do they have public liability insurance? Did they have health and safety training. And that house that the guy accidently burned down when he left the hob on and popped out into the back garden for a crafty fag... are you paying for that, or is the state?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.dailymail...hours-week.html

Great plan, apart from the fact there might not be the voluntary work for these people to do, the OH went to one agency because of work, who handle volunteers and they said that they had nothing to offer at the minute and there was a waiting list of 80 people. However they will take details and keep them on file for six months.

So this might be a plan that falls at the first hurdle.

there is a plenty of work for £2 or £3 ph; they can clean up my garden, garage, clean my car, child care

there is just no work if I have to pay them £10 ph so I do it now my self or kindly ask my wife

there is a plenty of work for a right price !

Edited by Damik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Name some that won't take away paid jobs.

There is a precedent for this kind of scheme. The YTS scheme was widely abused to get cheap labour instead of employing apprentices.

PS. The number of people who are unemployed is growing and has been for a couple of years. Why do you think this is? Are people suddenly becoming lazier?

Been discussed here many a time. There are clearly issues with the jobs market and it is tougher than it has been. Then again 5 years ago any muppet could get a job most places in this country with little effort at all. It comes and goes - and always has been the case. Sliding scale of effort required. Just now there are less jobs so those who want them will have to put in more effort than before for the same job. Pretty simple logic. So there will clearly be more people left behind. However these are those who won't or cant put in that extra effort. Seems pretty basic natural selection to me.

Why should us humans be any different from any other spcies ? Do we think we are somehow better ? And at least those in this country who are 'left behind' are not left starving to be eaten alive by other predators.

As for laziness ? Well yes I do think many in this country have got lazier. The reason why is the only question IMO.

If anybody wants proof just go to anywhere that has a lift going one floor and a set of stairs beside. Or better still a set of small stairs at a railway station or an airport with an escalator beside. Stand there and observe for 10 minutes. There is all the prood you need.

Now some people may say this lot are just being smart and conserving their energy. However I don't think this rings true. Most people realise that staying active is benefical to you. Anf for nearly everyone in this country a supply of food to give you all the energy you need is readily available - and the rest.

So what I deduce from this simple observation - and it is one I think everyone should do - is that the vast majority of people in this country will choose the easy route - EVEN IF IT IS TO THEIR DETRIMENT IN THE LONG TERM.

Nothing wrong with taking the easy route when it makes sense. I am all for it. However many in this country will take it no matter what. And that is clearly not beneficial to them or anybody else.

The reason ? Who knows. However I think possibly because so many things are just too easy these days. Look at teh number of fat people about. Same logic and principle. They know what is required to get themselves in shape - they know it will be hard work - they hate hte way they look and feel. Yet the majority will just stick with what they have to avoid putting any hard work in.

Laziness - endemic in this country*.

* Not for all clearly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm convinced the opposite of what you say would work far better:

we should all get free money (a citizen's income) and then those that want to earn more can work.

There is not enough work for everybody by far, and there will be less and less work available so a citizen's income (really a dividend for increased automation) is the only viable option, unless you prefer having to hire bodyguards to venture on the streets.

I think more work would be created if earnings were allowed to fall. I happen to think that minimum wage in the North is remarkably generous. You can live quite well up here on £6 an hour, even have your own house/flat without having to share. In London you would be doomed to a shared room in ghetto for ever. So there is an argument for removing or reducing the minimum wage levels in the employment wastelands of the North, but can you imagine the outcry if the government were to suggest it!

I've heard that workers in China work, for basically benefit levels in the West. However as posters like Ken would have pointed out, they only have to stick for a few years, before returning to the countryside to build/buy your own place. Here in the UK would rent from a bank for ever with half your wage going in rent/usary to a rentier. Not good.

Afraid to say the corporate government has done everything possible to create a high living cost economy, which isn't compatible with a cheap slave labour economy. Indeed current monetary policy is geared towards keeping house/shop/office costs high, rather than fall so as to bring them back into use at a much lower cost base. Heaven forbid, that market forces should be allowed to operate for the "rest of us!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awake Eagle - totally agree about a citizens income. If we were starting the UK from scratch today it would be a no brainer. Shame we can't/won't. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the thrust of Debbie's point, but why aren't there enough jobs? That's the question which should be being asked. There should always be something to do at some price.

Perhaps if the government of the day attempted to examine the problem of no jobs, they might make headway.

Misdirection is probably easier to arrange. ;)

Equally, why is shelter on a bit of land so expensive, when grazing land only costs from £2-3k? Who is creaming off the extra money and why?

I think the fact we all found this site is probably proof enough we all believe shelter / land is far too expensive. The solutions have been discussed here ad infinitum, what we need is for some of them to be implemented, rather than attempts made to blame our current ills on a section of the general public who are probably least at fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps if the government of the day attempted to examine the problem of no jobs, they might make headway.

Misdirection is probably easier to arrange. ;)

I think the fact we all found this site is probably proof enough we all believe shelter / land is far too expensive. The solutions have been discussed here ad infinitum, what we need is for some of them to be implemented, rather than attempts made to blame our current ills on a section of the general public who are probably least at fault.

Agreed. It just frustrates me when people fall for the trap of this being a 'solution' to the problems, even on HPC, when it would clearly not fixing the core issues.

Edited by Traktion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been saying this for years...there should be no free money.

Moreover, they should be working for free food, clothes, heating and shelter. If they dont like it...get a job.

You are a prize prat of the highest order

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think his volunteering will be along the lines of cleaning bogs and crapping chewing gum off the street with your tongue...nothing pleasant.

You really are an odious scumbag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. It just frustrates me when people fall for the trap of this being a 'solution' to the problems, even on HPC, when it would clearly not fixing the core issues.

I think a citizens income would solve a lot of our problems.

Lower housing costs

Lower public sector worker numbers

Increase flexibility for everyone in the country

Reduce paperwork in the public sector by a huge amount

Lower desire for people to have kids just to get a bigger house/more money*.

Increas everyone's ability to try something differnet and give things a go like starting a new business.

Allow those who have worked hard and just want to relax and do 'personal work' like gardening, going for walks, volunteering work etc.. to do just that.

Remove benefits for those just wanting to come here to get them.

Plus who knows howhat else

It's a start.

*Because whilst a person would get extra money for a child, just as they do today, they would get no other associated benefits like housing size increase - like they do today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 317 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.