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Expats Cancelling Plans To Return To Uk


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So now we have silence on the previous assertion that the UK is flooded with immigrants and it turns out that EU laws prohibit UK nationals getting different treatment within the EU.... Eu nationals without residency are only allowed emergency treatment in the UK under E111 , reciprocal health agreement applies across Europe. anyone who thinks the UK is some sort of bnefits paradise is reading too much Daily Wail. If you want to see a soft touch then check out recent tax avoidance penalties applied to Vodaphone and Goldman Sachs...why was no interest paid....

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Any UK citizen resident in any EU country is entitled by law to the same benefits as the locals, what is your point on this, does this pass your acid test.... ? Welfare benefits in the two countries(Belgium/Germany) that I have direct knowledge of are better than the UK with respect to unemployment, so please put some facts behind your hyperbole. Sweden has historically always had the highest number of Asylum seekers in Europe.In France something like 1 in 5 second generation have at least one immigrant parent. I could go on but I suspect you'll disappear now....

...you wouldn't get out of it that easy....France and Germany did delay entry to East European members while Eire and the UK opened their gates ...we are aware of the higher levels of benefit paid in other countries to people who qualify for benefit but when a Romanian claims everyone in his town knows how to work the UK benefits system it is time to consider approaching your MP...

In the town of Tanderei, which is dotted with luxury villas, some of which police suspect have been paid for with the money begged on the streets of Europe, I met Petrica Dragusin, one of the men arrested on suspicion of child trafficking in the sweep in Romania as part of Operation Golf.

He told me bluntly that his entire town knows how to work Britain's benefit system.

"The blame is with the British state, which gives them a lot of money. They have lots of children, seven, eight or 10 children, and if they have many children they build a villa."

The sums he cites are staggering.

"Some collect £10,000, £12,000, £13,000 a month - they have three or four of five sets of benefits."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9618000/9618038.stm

...but of course you think this is acceptable.....oh and for the record we are not talking asylum seekers... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne
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So now we have silence on the previous assertion that the UK is flooded with immigrants and it turns out that EU laws prohibit UK nationals getting different treatment within the EU.... Eu nationals without residency are only allowed emergency treatment in the UK under E111 , reciprocal health agreement applies across Europe. anyone who thinks the UK is some sort of bnefits paradise is reading too much Daily Wail. If you want to see a soft touch then check out recent tax avoidance penalties applied to Vodaphone and Goldman Sachs...why was no interest paid....

I'm sorry but you are very wrong. I'm not a foaming anti-immigration type of person but you only have to hear the tales of ex-pats in Spain and France to know that it is very much harder to get access to their full benefits system than it is in the UK.

As I have said before - they obey the letter of the EU law, but set the rules such that they are skewed in favour of locals / against short-term immigrants. The UK sets the bar on what constitutes a benefit recipient too low, IMO.

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So now we have silence on the previous assertion that the UK is flooded with immigrants and it turns out that EU laws prohibit UK nationals getting different treatment within the EU.... Eu nationals without residency are only allowed emergency treatment in the UK under E111 , reciprocal health agreement applies across Europe. anyone who thinks the UK is some sort of bnefits paradise is reading too much Daily Wail. If you want to see a soft touch then check ostered ecent tax avoidance penalties applied to Vodaphone and Goldman Sachs...why was no interest paid....

...read this link....you seem very keen to declare our benefits system as fraud proof ... :rolleyes: I paid my tax into that fund and wish to see it administered within the law and funded to the correct people....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9618000/9618038.stm

Edited by South Lorne
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I have lived here in Spain for the last seven years and can tell you that if you are below retirement age and not working in Spain then you are not entitled to use the Spanish NHS system. The EU Health Card (old E111) is valid for emergency treatment only.

A number of Brits that I know do abuse this system by claiming everything is an emergency and managing to get away with it, but I suppose you have to be lucky everytime.

Health is one of the main concerns for expats below retirement age, and even if they have children they cannot access the Spanish NHS unless they are officially working and paying tax into the system. They have to pay for a private health insurance policy.

As for benefits such as unemployment benefit, forget that as well. If you're not paying in, you don't get anything out. That's Spain for you. Unless you're above pension age.

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I have lived here in Spain for the last seven years and can tell you that if you are below retirement age and not working in Spain then you are not entitled to use the Spanish NHS system. The EU Health Card (old E111) is valid for emergency treatment only.

A number of Brits that I know do abuse this system by claiming everything is an emergency and managing to get away with it, but I suppose you have to be lucky everytime.

Health is one of the main concerns for expats below retirement age, and even if they have children they cannot access the Spanish NHS unless they are officially working and paying tax into the system. They have to pay for a private health insurance policy.

As for benefits such as unemployment benefit, forget that as well. If you're not paying in, you don't get anything out. That's Spain for you. Unless you're above pension age.

...British Expats forum talking about the Spanish youngsters claiming benefits in the UK...... :rolleyes:

Re: Spanish girl learns English (but claims benefits) in Edinburgh

It is common practice across all the EU as the UK is known as a soft touch. The spanish are no exception. A neighbour's Son and two friends went as soon as they had finished uni. Stayed for just over a year. They thought it amazing that they could get a flat, dole money and free language lessons. He told me that they chose Sheffield as there is a big spanish student community there and in other Northern Cities.

I think if the UK doesn't tighten up the system it will all collapse soon

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=668298

Edited by South Lorne
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...read this link....you seem very keen to declare our benefits system as fraud proof ... :rolleyes: I paid my tax into that fund and wish to see it administered within the law and funded to the correct people....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9618000/9618038.stm

Did i say anything about fraud proof ? I've made two clear statements, Immigration in the UK is actually lower than many other EU countries and that UK citizens are not treated any differently than other local EU nationals across the EU. You send me a link to Child beggers from Romainia and quote me hearsay from a Spanish Expats site.

Edited by abroad
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I'm sorry but you are very wrong. I'm not a foaming anti-immigration type of person but you only have to hear the tales of ex-pats in Spain and France to know that it is very much harder to get access to their full benefits system than it is in the UK.

As I have said before - they obey the letter of the EU law, but set the rules such that they are skewed in favour of locals / against short-term immigrants. The UK sets the bar on what constitutes a benefit recipient too low, IMO.

I'd expect that most people living abroad probably have never claimed benefits in the UK how would they know.......

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Did i say anything about fraud proof ? I've made two clear statements, Immigration in the UK is actually lower than many other EU countries and that UK citizens are not treated any differently than other local EU nationals across the EU. You send me a link to Child beggers from Romainia and quote me hearsay from a Spanish Expats site.

Yes you did but you are being very economical with the truth as well. You forgot to mention that the rules for each country are different so for example: although someone from the UK, Netherlands, Germany, etc or even Spain itself, may have to pass the same hurdles to get Spanish unemployment benefits, those rules are written in such a way as to make it harder for non-Spanish to claim them.

Now consider that most EU countries have similar lopsided rules that make it harder for non-locals but the UK doesn't. All you have to do is prove residency, which doesn't even require a formal document and is open to interpretation. Hence the UK is more attractive to someone from the EU than most other EU countries. Capiche?

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Did i say anything about fraud proof ? I've made two clear statements, Immigration in the UK is actually lower than many other EU countries and that UK citizens are not treated any differently than other local EU nationals across the EU. You send me a link to Child beggers from Romainia and quote me hearsay from a Spanish Expats site.

...you didn't read the whole BBC article from the link smart guy...

He told me bluntly that his entire town knows how to work Britain's benefit system.

"The blame is with the British state, which gives them a lot of money. They have lots of children, seven, eight or 10 children, and if they have many children they build a villa."

The sums he cites are staggering.

"Some collect £10,000, £12,000, £13,000 a month - they have three or four of five sets of benefits."

...you didn't talk immigration here ..you talked asylum seekers:

Sweden has historically always had the highest number of Asylum seekers in Europe.

...try not to get so confused ...we are talking about the rights of people from other EU countries turning up and claiming benefits due to an EU agreement which seems to have different interpretations by different countries and different countries within the EU putting up barriers to EU immigrants which the UK did not ....if you as a UK citizen have had no problem claiming benefits in the countries you mention ...say so.....and did you claim for any children in the UK... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne
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I'd expect that most people living abroad probably have never claimed benefits in the UK how would they know.......

Good grief.

They can read therefore they can read the rules themselves through various government sources - websites, leaflets, jobcentres.

They may have relatives who have had to claim.

Many retired ones will claim the winter fuel allowance and anything else they are entitled to if they can.

They will have hopefully researched it before making the choice to become an expat.

How obtuse do you want to make your argument?

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Good grief.

They can read therefore they can read the rules themselves through various government sources - websites, leaflets, jobcentres.

They may have relatives who have had to claim.

Many retired ones will claim the winter fuel allowance and anything else they are entitled to if they can.

They will have hopefully researched it before making the choice to become an expat.

How obtuse do you want to make your argument?

I don't think I'm being obtuse in the slightest, the whole of your argument is that some expats you know moaned about it being hard to claim benefits in a country where they speak another language and they have limited knowledge of how it works and its clear from that solid evidence that other EU states are being more crafty than the UK......Quelle surpise....oder nicht ueberrascht ?

Edited by abroad
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I don't think I'm being obtuse in the slightest, the whole of your argument is that some expats you know moaned about it being hard to claim benefits in a country where they speak another language and they have limited knowledge of how it works and its clear from that solid evidence that other EU states are being more crafty than the UK......Quelle surpise....oder nicht ueberrascht ?

....yes ...in the UK people who can't speak English are entitled to an interpreter....och aye th'noo... :rolleyes:

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Any UK citizen resident in any EU country is entitled by law to the same benefits as the locals, what is your point on this, does this pass your acid test.... ? Welfare benefits in the two countries(Belgium/Germany) that I have direct knowledge of are better than the UK with respect to unemployment, so please put some facts behind your hyperbole. Sweden has historically always had the highest number of Asylum seekers in Europe.In France something like 1 in 5 second generation have at least one immigrant parent. I could go on but I suspect you'll disappear now....

According to the EU in 2010 the following countries had higher percentages of EU immigrants than the UK....Germany,Spain,Austria,Belgium,Sweden UK has similar levels to France,Greece and Netherlands. Portugal,Denmark and Italy all have lower levels but Italy is currently the fastest growing of the main EU countries.

The UN paints the UK in an even weaker position but I can't be arsed looking it up as clearly gut feel and perception beats real life.

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According to the EU in 2010 the following countries had higher percentages of EU immigrants than the UK....Germany,Spain,Austria,Belgium,Sweden UK has similar levels to France,Greece and Netherlands. Portugal,Denmark and Italy all have lower levels but Italy is currently the fastest growing of the main EU countries.

The UN paints the UK in an even weaker position but I can't be arsed looking it up as clearly gut feel and perception beats real life.

...it is customary to post links to such data...both sets please.... :rolleyes:

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...it is customary to post links to such data...both sets please.... :rolleyes:

Where is your data ? In your belly ? ;)...Try wikipedia or google for the UN figures

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/3-07092010-AP/EN/3-07092010-AP-EN.PDF

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/07/immigration-europe-foreign-citizens#zoomed-picture

in pictures....

Edited by abroad
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..I provided you with the links and the relevant foreign language ...you did not even read them due to your gut feelings ...I have already searched google but could find nothing to confirm your gut..... :)...but I see from your first link the volumes maybe on track but this does not give the abuse of claims data.... :rolleyes: ...this is a reflection on our public sector controls which in the last few days tried to recover a few days wages from a soldier who died and yet it appears is paying out benefits to people who are not entitled .... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne
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http://www.gcim.org/attachements/RS4.pdf

Read this , pretty balanced view of European immigration in a global environment. A lot of interesting views and some pretty topical findings if you read it in conjunction with this thread.

My views are entirely based on being a UK citizen living for 11 years as an immigrant myself, having lived in 2 other EU countries for extended periods of time. My exposure to other benefits are minor in that I got/get child benefit and knew the details of unemployment benefit(which in both countries was based on previous salary not fixed rate), although I was lucky enough to not have to go through the process.

I have had pretty extensive exposure to the health services of all the countries and naturally the difficulties of living day to day. I can imagine its more difficult to get access to everything you should get in a foreign country but I have doubts that its a state level conspiracy, although I am happy to be convinced otherwise.

However I do see the same issues at home as my family went through years of issues dealing DHSS/Welfare with my grandfather who lived on his own and eventually ended up in a care home. Dozens of trips to CAB and having social work get involved in seeing what he was and was not entitled to etc etc.....multiple overpayments and underpayments.....Maybe I should have sent them all on a course on UK benefits in Romainia.........

Clearly though the figures must be fudged by some public service civil servant looking to pull the wool over every right minded UK subjects eyes and your gut feel is correct on benefit levels in the UK being higher and that we do have more immigration.....

I would conceed that the immigration in the UK is potentially not evenly spread......... :ph34r: ...but I don;t have figures on that , its just an observation.

Edited by abroad
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http://www.gcim.org/attachements/RS4.pdf

Read this , pretty balanced view of European immigration in a global environment. A lot of interesting views and some pretty topical findings if you read it in conjunction with this thread.

My views are entirely based on being a UK citizen living for 11 years as an immigrant myself, having lived in 2 other EU countries for extended periods of time. My exposure to other benefits are minor in that I got/get child benefit and knew the details of unemployment benefit(which in both countries was based on previous salary not fixed rate), although I was lucky enough to not have to go through the process.

I have had pretty extensive exposure to the health services of all the countries and naturally the difficulties of living day to day. I can imagine its more difficult to get access to everything you should get in a foreign country but I have doubts that its a state level conspiracy, although I am happy to be convinced otherwise.

However I do see the same issues at home as my family went through years of issues dealing DHSS/Welfare with my grandfather who lived on his own and eventually ended up in a care home. Dozens of trips to CAB and having social work get involved in seeing what he was and was not entitled to etc etc.....multiple overpayments and underpayments.....Maybe I should have sent them all on a course on UK benefits in Romainia.........

...good background....and tells the difficulties of UK citizens dealing with benefits ...I have a son who has ME ..he is 20 ...and he goes through loops and many interviews to get something ...he had to leave Uni last year as it became worse after a bad flu...I take him to each interview... medical ...and this is the only time he goes out due to the illness..

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I don't think I'm being obtuse in the slightest, the whole of your argument is that some expats you know moaned about it being hard to claim benefits in a country where they speak another language and they have limited knowledge of how it works and its clear from that solid evidence that other EU states are being more crafty than the UK......Quelle surpise....oder nicht ueberrascht ?

Quelle surprise indeed. My experience comes from close relatives who have lived in France for > 5 years and can speak the language well enough thankyouverymuch. They have dealt with planning permission, all the day to day bureaucracy and have mixed in with the French retirees as well as the English ones. I have no direct knowledge of Spain although there are plenty of anecdotal reports to show it isn't straightforward there either.

You are being obtuse by denying there is a problem with UK benefits by simply comparing it to other countries (or worse, corporate tax avoidance). Need I remind you two wrongs don't make a right?

I see from later posts your are also an expat with some experience of it, fine. How long have you actually spent in the UK recently?

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Nice, percentages that mean f-all. They are skewed by the size of the population - hence why the % is so big for Luxembourg.

I would reduce the figures for Germany, Austria and Switzerland as I'd guess a lot of that is simply people from those countries moving between each one. Although there is probably also a largish Turkish influx, but I don't know how big it is really, compared to how much it gets reported.

Spain will largely be UK and German retirees. Ditto for France. Plus mix in economically active people working in Paris / Berlin / Munich / Barcelona etc. How many Germans, Spanish or French do you think retire in the UK?

A large % of the UK number will be workers in London I guess. But even so, given the population it's fair to say the UK has more immigrants than most in outright numbers. And they're mainly squeezed into England so the density is higher.

Edit: Just read the first one with actual numbers in. Hadn't realised there were so many non-EU in Germany. But I'm annoyed you've dragged this into a 'who's got the highest level of immigration' pissing contest. I thought the original point was that it is easier for an EU national to get UK benefits than vice-versa. You haven't given any proof either way yet.

Edited by efdemin
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